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Feminism (pg. 12)
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| butterfly |
what is the definition of feminism? if it means the pursuit of equal opportunities for men and women, then i am all for it. i definitely don't agree with the approach of feminists from the 70s.
men and women can never be equal, because we are just not wired the same way. women will have more motherly instincts than men, and men will be physically stronger (of course there are always exceptions). these basic differences have of course led to gender unbalances in certain occupations, but it doesn't explain to me why there are so many fewer women in leadership roles.
i saw a post that there were more women CEOs in 2009 for the first time, but what about other levels of management or the US government? i was a supervisor (the lowest level of leadership) for the last 5 years and even there, there were 2 women for 16 men. it wasn't because the men got preferential treatment, or were better at the job.
i absolutely do NOT believe that the norm is for women to be overlooked for a man for these positions. I think the reason is that women either don't believe they can reach those levels of leadership or don't aspire to. don't get me wrong, there are certainly exceptions to this rule, as the number of women in these roles are increasing, but i recently saw a stat that at the current rate it is increasing, it will be another 300 years because we are truly equal. for me, this is not good enough.
why wouldn't women aspire to have successful careers in leadership? it is hard for me to believe it is by a conscious choice. i can't say i know the answer but it causes me to believe that non-extremist feminism is still necessary and legitimate. |
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| Marcus Summers |
| I hate feminists because of this thread. |
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| Ridexer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jake Benson
Why are Lesbians always feminists? |
Because all the black people _LOVE_ watermelons. |
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| R.j. |
I got this from William Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom!"
Quote (from the very last page in any edition):
"Now," Shreve said, "tell me just one thing more. Why do you hate being a woman?"
"I don't hate being a woman," the feminist said quickly, quickly, at once, immediately; "I don't hate being a woman," she said. I don't hate being a woman she thought, panting in the cold air, the iron New England dark: I don't. I don't! I don't hate being a woman! I don't hate being a woman! |
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| FuzzQi |
What's with all the focus on women as CEOs?
When we have equality in the sewers, collecting garbage, working in dangerous conditions, in combat, dying at work, and an equal life expectancy between men and women, we'll be closer to real equality between the sexes.
When men get "the pill" we'll have better equality between the sexes.
When mothers and fathers are treated based on their merit and not on their gender in child custody court cases, we'll have better equality between the sexes.
As a future employer I would never dream of paying a man or woman less because of their gender - or showing any form of preferential treatment. It's sad that there are some archaic power-holders in the business world who still do that kind of thing but you know what, they are going to DIE SOON. ALL OF THEM.
I tend to date Feminists because I like them, they have respect for themselves and they show some ambition. But I will also feel better when they simply show me respect for being a person, as I show them, not just because I fight them for it. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by FuzzQi
I tend to date happy pandas because I like them, they have respect for themselves and they are happy pandas. |
Fixed :p
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
:haha: :haha:
it takes a lot to win lira's ire, respect theresa respect. |
:D |
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| FuzzQi |
Oh shi -
He knows too much :p |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
its silly to focus on such issues in just the same way its silly to condemn how serfs were treated 500 years ago. it is what it is- a milestone in the evolution of our species.
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It's how God intended it to be :)
....lulz :haha:
| quote: | Originally posted by Blake
It's ironic when women advocate for equal treatment and then get upset when men don't do chivalrous things like give up their seat on a crowded subway or bus :rolleyes:
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Last week, I was out at one of the FIFA livesites at half time between Ghana and Germany. We were waiting in line for some food when some chick somewhere behind me started whinging (in a playful way I will admit) that we should let her go first. Then she said "chivalry is dead". I turned to her and said "chivalry died when you demanded equality". The eruption of laughter was priceless.
Ok so she was joking around and I was too, and we did let her go further up the line eventually but it illustrates exactly what you said. You can't have it both ways.
I'm all for equality, equal pay for equal jobs, the same opportunities, I also don't care about age in the workplace either. I still open doors for women (and elderly too of course), I get up to let others sit down, etc.
This is why it s me soooooooooooooooo much when some extremist wit of a feminist starts telling me what a chauvinist I am just because I was born a man and how I'm apparently oppressing the entire female population. I'm sure most men are the same and this is why feminists are detrimental to the majority of the female population. It's because they alienate the very core group of men that are actually helping in maintaining/reaching that equality. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Trust me I know what I'm talking about. I know how people think, I know behavior, and I understand motives. |
How about no, simply on the basis you've got no damn idea and this is perfectly illustrated by the following.
| quote: | | Do you think it makes you sound reasonable to claim that I "am not empathetic to anyone's position in life or how they ended up where they are"... because I refused to bow down to a notoriously opinionated and bossy internet personality? Because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong. And I'm not. |
Hello Kev, its the 21st century and I'm actually allowed to have an opinion, its what makes me, me. In this particular case, I can volunteer an opinion "from the other side" of the gender fence with some validity.
You make me out to be some overbearing monster, on the simple basis that whenever we've had a difference of ideas on something in the past, the construction of my argument has left you a little wanting for substantial factual examples and its much easier for you to wriggle out of it by sledging away to open it up emotionally so I'll go away.
I'm a lot of things but I'm not brutal or crass. You where only right about one thing though, I am most assuredly tough as hell and highly motivated because my life has been extraordinarily tough to the point I wouldn't wish parts of it on anyone. Something a conservative, closed minded fellow like yourself wouldn't see is that I am also humbled by the fact that I have seen first hand that some people also have life a damn sight rougher than I do. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Hello Kev, its the 21st century and I'm actually allowed to have an opinion, its what makes me, me. In this particular case, I can volunteer an opinion "from the other side" of the gender fence with some validity.
You make me out to be some overbearing monster, on the simple basis that whenever we've had a difference of ideas on something in the past, the construction of my argument has left you a little wanting for substantial factual examples and its much easier for you to wriggle out of it by sledging away to open it up emotionally so I'll go away.
I'm a lot of things but I'm not brutal or crass. You where only right about one thing though, I am most assuredly tough as hell and highly motivated because my life has been extraordinarily tough to the point I wouldn't wish parts of it on anyone. Something a conservative, closed minded fellow like yourself wouldn't see is that I am also humbled by the fact that I have seen first hand that some people also have life a damn sight rougher than I do. |
There you go again... putting words and thoughts into my head. Just because someone calls you out or disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they live in the 19th century and don't think you aren't entitled to an opinion. Classic setting up of the straw man and knocking it down. This is kind of funny though- when you say this:
| quote: | | In this particular case, I can volunteer an opinion "from the other side" of the gender fence with some validity. |
.... because that is exactly what I have been doing- volunteering an opinion from the other side of the gender fence. Yet you refuse to extend me the same benefit of the doubt you demand for yourself.
Stop perpetuating the stereotype and playing the victim card. You in fact were incredibly rude and disrespectful to me when we had a throwdown in here some months back, chiding me like I was a moron. When I wouldn't capitulate, you started up with the "oh yeah well this is how accomplished I am" routine. How else would I know about your money and business accomplishments? This is why, when you started with the "give me examples or keep walking" tough talk right away instead of cordial dialogue, I had no patience to "give you the benefit of the doubt". If you have a valid reason to call me close minded, other than the fact I disagree with you, by all means I'd like to see this example. |
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| Lilith |
There was a god awful lot of things said in Healthcare in Other Countries and looking back through it, I was pretty blunt in places but a lot of other people where a hell of a lot meaner to you than I am!
(Looking a Lews... hmm!)
Likewise I don't end an otherwise civilised argument with the likes of..
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
:stongue: why don't you just ask her if you can stick your tongue in her butt already? |
...just to be 'funny'. Good job Kev, you're a class act. :rolleyes:
This conversation ends on the basis that you see me as a horrible, cold hearted, sinful and nasty individual based on my life choices not matching your idea of an archetypical gender stereotype and a stereotype of completely another variety which I don't belong.
Volunteering an opinion from the other side of the gender fence about me. Why should I give one shred of credibility about an opinion formulated by someone with absolutely NOTHING in common with me?
What you can do however, is judge and you will seem to drag up anything, real or even possibly insinuated to paint me in such a light, from that point we go away from the cordial argument, (because yes, there is such a thing amongst people) and into what is commonly called trolling.
Really, what did you expect, wandering into a feminist debate and just start chucking opinions around willy nilly? You've got your attention, had your fun and wondering ever so innocently why some of us might not think highly of that activity. There's easier ways of trolling up cranky chicks Kev, but not many. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
There was a god awful lot of things said in Healthcare in Other Countries and looking back through it, I was pretty blunt in places but a lot of other people where a hell of a lot meaner to you than I am!
(Looking a Lews... hmm!)
Likewise I don't end an otherwise civilised argument with the likes of..
...just to be 'funny'. Good job Kev, you're a class act. :rolleyes: |
Geez... lighten up a little. There was nothing insidious about that joke. LEWS and I have patched things up anyway.
| quote: | | This conversation ends on the basis that you see me as a horrible, cold hearted, sinful and nasty individual based on my life choices not matching your idea of an archetypical gender stereotype and a stereotype of completely another variety which I don't belong. |
And AGAIN, putting words in my mouth. Did I say you're horrible? Sinful and nasty, based on your life choices? Go ahead and just make up whatever you want about my thoughts about you, and the reasons why I have them.
| quote: | | Volunteering an opinion from the other side of the gender fence about me. Why should I give one shred of credibility about an opinion formulated by someone with absolutely NOTHING in common with me? |
But.... you would like ME to respect the validity of YOUR opinion- someone "who has absolutely nothing in common with you". Do you not see your hypocrisy? By the way, I bet we have more in common than you'd like to admit. Both of us are self made successful business owners who don't take from anyone.
| quote: | What you can do however, is judge and you will seem to drag up anything, real or even possibly insinuated to paint me in such a light, from that point we go away from the cordial argument, (because yes, there is such a thing amongst people) and into what is commonly called trolling.
Really, what did you expect, wandering into a feminist debate and just start chucking opinions around willy nilly? You've got your attention, had your fun and wondering ever so innocently why some of us might not think highly of that activity. There's easier ways of trolling up cranky chicks Kev, but not many. |
Something seems to have been lost along the way here, because you have made this about you when I was originally speaking about a particular "type" of woman. I was speaking about how in the corporate world, some overly career driven women who demand equality with men often get caught up in that masculine executive culture, overcompensate to prove they aren't "the weaker sex" or whatever, and end up losing some of their nurturing characteristics. Then they find it difficult to form and maintain a romantic personal life. This is the whole thing that Theresa started dissecting into psychobabble, and insinuating I was saying about all women. Then you joined in defending... what I'm not sure. Both of you started telling me I had no idea what I was talking about... but I don't know why- maybe because you and Theresa aren't like those women? That's fine, I wasn't saying you were. So I would like for you to tell me how I am wrong. Tell me that the type of overly career driven woman I described is an imaginary concoction that doesn't exist. Remember- just because you might not be like that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Edit: Let me ask you... and you don't have to answer... but are you in a serious relationship? Married? If not, as a high powered business woman, are you satisfied in your personal life outside of work? |
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