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Feminism (pg. 5)
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
Feminists, at least the active ones, are ing annoying. You already have legislative equality. Guess what? That’s all you get. If the remnants of patriarchal society are passed from one generation to the next, that’s just tough luck.
Feminists also can’t take a ing joke. I remember this one time I passed this rabid feminist with no arms and no legs, so I just said “nice ”. Didn’t even crack a smile. |
Should we be supporting these remnants to be passed on though? Is it appropriate to perpetuate the belief that women are lesser than men, etc. etc.? I don't think it's "tough luck", and that is the entire point of feminism - women are not just going to accept that life is the way it is. Change needs to happen and the only way it is going to happen is if people try and actively change it.
If you went up to a black man fighting for his right to have certain jobs etc. and called him a ni gger and to get back to the cotton fields, do you think he would find it funny? Or if you said "nice working muscles" to be less controversial/more on par perhaps? Probably not. It's ignorant to make jokes about the subjugation of people, no matter who they are. For a guy who seems relatively intelligent, I am surprised you don't get that... unless of course, you're taking the piss.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Probably because its an anachronism as much as luddites and communists are and most of the original political movements in the western world have already been achieved.
About the only thing that still needs some work is in the industrial relations area in terms of equal pay and maternity leave which is still treated subjectively by employers who try to dodge around laws. |
This to some degree makes sense to me. Almost like "yea yea, you already got what you wanted, now shut up" sort of thing. However, I find that people react negatively just to the idea of feminism. I am open about being a feminist. I am by no means a radical, nor have I ever done anything to fight for women's rights or whatever because I have never felt the need. With that being said, as soon as I say I am a feminist, I get the :rolleyes:, especially from males.
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
it is becoming easier and easier to scrape by as a hideous female than it ever was before, and that is about the extent of it. |
Why do you use the term "hideous"?
| quote: | Originally posted by Kismet7
Do we really need more feminism? What about preserving, or putting back together the nuclear family, that feminism uprooted and laid to waste. Ultimately, movements should move things in a positive direction. Has there been some sort of net gain for either women or men due to feminism? Are women happier? Last year I remember reading a report that said women are in a poorer state of affairs post feminist movement. Do we need men to be feminists after there has been no raw gain from a quality of life perspective for women nor men? Women deserve their rights, but none of this should have been forced on society.
One of the outcomes (perhaps purpose) of feminism was to split up families and have school systems become the centerpoint of ideals, goals, morality, ethics, emotional intelligence, and so on. Modern moms are too busy and far too stressed to help mould those properly, or to hold together a progressive family. Why would a logic seeing man support feminism? |
I don't think feminism was 'forced' on society. The opportunity for women to make choices for themselves was put out there, and if women are voluntarily making the choice to work and pursue careers, then what's the problem? The point about feminism was for women to have equal opportunities and rights to live their lives how they want. If they want to be stay at home moms, they can be. If they want to work all the time, they can. If they want to juggle both, go for it.
I am not sure that I would be inclined to believe the quality of life, at least for women, has declined. How would people really know... womens opinions prior to the movement were irrelevant. Women were expected to be perfect little housewives. It is doubtful that many would openly admit that they were unhappy being the property of their husband, unable to make decisions and being cooped up in the house all the time.
With that being said however, it is quite obvious that enough women weren't happy about it because the feminist movement *did* happen. Women obviously weren't happy, or nothing would have changed.
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
Women have become so "career" oriented that many have lost their femininity, trying to out-do men or basically become them, psychologically speaking. An argument can be made that this has affected the nuclear family. I'm all for empowerment, but some women lose their identity as "a woman" when they push too hard.
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The social construct of what is "feminine" is not necessarily a womans natural behavioural pattern. They are not "becoming men", they are being themselves and not conforming to a traditional gender role. The whole "losing their identity as a woman" is a load of hobunky.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Because, just like in any movement, the extremists make everyone else look bad. And are the moderate feminists nowadays? I don't really know that many...
I don't really mind them most of the time, though Do you reckon you're not given equal rights? Well, have them. Do you think you're being prejudiced against? Well, let's look into it. However, the moment you act all paranoid and claim even the grammar of a given language is oppressing you (I'm not kidding!), then you have the power to make me roll my eyes so hard I can even see my brain squirming and writhing in agony. |
You probably don't think you know many moderate feminists because they don't really do much. I am a feminist... but I haven't actively done anything about it.
For someone who studies linguistics, I would think you would recognize that language is very sexist. Ex. Spanish/French - regardless if there are a million women, if there is only 1 man, they must be referred to in the masculine form. Mailman, Policeman, etc. etc. Language was developed out of patriarchal constructs, and so naturally, a lot of the values are translated through expressions and words. Not to say that I think language actively oppresses women. I do think in some ways, it does undermine the importance of women.
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
just that in today's society, there seems to be more women who don't give a about family as opposed to career. Goddamn "Sex and the City" types. :p |
Why is this a problem? Men have for years upon years valued career more than family... why can't women? Why is it necessary for a woman to be concerned with having children and being a mother? |
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| Ian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Why is this a problem? Men have for years upon years valued career more than family... why can't women? Why is it necessary for a woman to be concerned with having children and being a mother? |
I'd actually say that there's some awful mothers out there so maybe if they had careers we wouldn't have to put up with their petulant demanding offspring. No, I didn't want you to wash my car with your little bucket of dirty dish water last week, and I definitely don't this week, it looks like the same water. |
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| Sand Leaper |
| Well, seeing as how men still believe that "femininity" and a woman's "identity" is inextricably linked to squeezing out kids and cooking, I'd say feminists still have plenty of work to do. |
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| Lews |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
lol... huh? I can't specifically "define" a woman, but without getting into a sociological discussion, you know femininity when you see it. And who's saying all women are supposed to be the same? I was just referring to the ones who try too hard to be like men- not achieve the same as men- and lose that nurturing quality in the process. You know the type. Dude you are misunderstanding my comments incredibly bad tonight. |
I had a terrible day and a horrible night and just want tomorrow afternoon to come around so I can have many strong drinks and also I get really annoyed at people who say that feminism is a bad thing or that parts of it are bad or that anything to do with feminism is bad.
All that feminism is is wanting to be equal to men. Do people try to say that the civil rights movement is bad or has messed up the cotton growing economy? No, because that's racist. All the civil rights movement was about was having equality between races. Why is equality between people considered such a bad thing? Why do people have to conform to traditional gender roles? Why can't a woman be free to focus on her career? She should be free to do anything a man wants to do.
Equality is not a bad thing (when it comes to rights. I'm not talking about social welfare). |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
I mean, just look at you. Always trying to sound like a hard ass with that bossy tone, telling tales of your monumentous business and financial achievements, playing yourself as a virtuous "know it all" who is smarter than anyone (especially a caveman male like me) who dares to challenge you. Enough already, it's old as . Cool, you made millions in Africa. You're a world beater who can close a business deal while giving birth and vacuuming at the same time. I'm really impressed.
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You seem to be taking issue with the rejection of traditional gender roles. You don't like it if women take on characteristics that are considered "masculine".
Gender roles are not necessarily indicative of natural behavioural tendencies. If women were not trained to believe that they should be homemakers, nurturing etc. they may not be that way. If men were not trained to believe that they should be tough, breadwinners who never cry blah blah blah, again, they may not naturally be that way.
Social constructs and socialization maintain gender roles. People who reject them, I would argue, are more true to themselves than those who just do what they think they are supposed to do. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
I had a terrible day and a horrible night and just want tomorrow afternoon to come around so I can have many strong drinks and also I get really annoyed at people who say that feminism is a bad thing or that parts of it are bad or that anything to do with feminism is bad.
All that feminism is is wanting to be equal to men. Do people try to say that the civil rights movement is bad or has messed up the cotton growing economy? No, because that's racist. All the civil rights movement was about was having equality between races. Why is equality between people considered such a bad thing? Why do people have to conform to traditional gender roles? Why can't a woman be free to focus on her career? She should be free to do anything a man wants to do.
Equality is not a bad thing (when it comes to rights. I'm not talking about social welfare). |
This is *exactly* why I don't understand why people have such a negative reaction to feminism. People don't think "oh great, another black person fighting for his right not to be harassed and demeaned" :rolleyes: but when it's a woman, it is too often a different story. |
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| FuzzQi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
as soon as I say I am a feminist, I get the :rolleyes:, especially from males.
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They're probably mentally preparing themselves for a drilling. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Why is this a problem? Men have for years upon years valued career more than family... why can't women? Why is it necessary for a woman to be concerned with having children and being a mother? |
I'm not saying women shouldn't value their careers at all. As I explained to LEWS, I was specifically referring to those women who become so concerned with equaling men from a career standpoint, that they lose their nurturing female qualities by taking on chauvinist qualities of men in the process; the ones that end up burnt out and cynical at age 37, decide they want to switch into nurturing family mode like there's a lightswitch for that, then can't figure out why they're unable to form normal healthy relationships with men.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
I wasn't offended. Just want to see what you had that was an actual example, you know those factual things people use in an argument instead of your own 'vaunted opinions and observations'. But on second thoughts, just keep going Kev and see how much rope it takes to hang yourself with in any kind of serious argument without resorting to sledging.
Yeah, my opinions advice are more or less unwanted, hence I don't give them any more. I didn't actually make anything of Africa, I lost a lot including some members of my family. |
Let's just say my observations and opinions on the matter are not being pulled out of my ass; it's not like what I said is taboo or far fetched. There are women who care so much about career, and are unable to balance that with a healthy marriage/family life. No examples necessary.
Edit: Hey, sucks that you lost family members in that chaos. You have my sincere empathy on that subject. |
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| Ian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
This is *exactly* why I don't understand why people have such a negative reaction to feminism. People don't think "oh great, another black person fighting for his right not to be harassed and demeaned" :rolleyes: but when it's a woman, it is too often a different story. |
I'm practising my rolleyes motion for calgary :D |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
You seem to be taking issue with the rejection of traditional gender roles. You don't like it if women take on characteristics that are considered "masculine".
Gender roles are not necessarily indicative of natural behavioural tendencies. If women were not trained to believe that they should be homemakers, nurturing etc. they may not be that way. If men were not trained to believe that they should be tough, breadwinners who never cry blah blah blah, again, they may not naturally be that way.
Social constructs and socialization maintain gender roles. People who reject them, I would argue, are more true to themselves than those who just do what they think they are supposed to do. |
I'm fine with women who take on masculine characteristics.. just not for me to be involved with on a personal level. Strictly from a business sense, I don't care if someone's male of female, hermaphrodite, or tranny- I'm all about results. |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by FuzzQi
They're probably mentally preparing themselves for a drilling. |
That's an unfair assumption if this is in fact the case. Although I am very opinionated and not too shy about voicing my opinions, I would never "drill" anyone about it.
I don't necessarily think that is always the case though. Even women react like that. It's almost 'dirty' to be a feminist. I rarely admit to it because it seems to have such a negative connotation.
| quote: | Originally posted by The17sss
I'm not saying women shouldn't value their careers at all. As I explained to LEWS, I was specifically referring to those women who become so concerned with equaling men from a career standpoint, that they lose their nurturing female qualities by taking on chauvinist qualities of men in the process; the ones that end up burnt out and cynical at age 37, decide they want to switch into nurturing family mode like there's a lightswitch for that, then can't figure out why they're unable to form normal healthy relationships with men.
There are women who care so much about career, and are unable to balance that with a healthy marriage/family life. No examples necessary. |
Who's to say they "lose their nurturing female qualities"? What if they never had them to begin with? And is losing them really that terrible? If they don't want to be a nurturer, then why does it matter? Personally I don't think you can really lose qualities like that, but perhaps I am wrong. Again, taking on "chauvinist" qualities... like these qualities are exclusive to men. This frame of thought indicates that you are very caught up in the social construct of gender roles and acceptable female/male behaviours.
Anyway, women are not the only ones who struggle with balancing careers and families. The only reason anyone really takes notice of it with women however, is because they are 'expected' to maintain the family construct. Men have for a VERY long time struggled with maintaining a career and a healthy family. How many people can say that their fathers played an active role in their lives? More today, but as little as 20-30 years ago, I would doubt there would be many.
With this being said, why is it objectionable for women to be like this, but it's normal for men? |
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| Theresa |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ian
I'm practising my rolleyes motion for calgary :D |
Don't make me kick your ass Ian.
:p |
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