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rememberance day (pg. 6)
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| zoogla |
pardon my ignorance, but did Canada have mandatory service in WWI or II? I believe the US did, a la "draft dodgers" but wasn't sure about Canada.
In view that people were forced to serve, and might have died, I definitely feel sorry for them and their families and believe it's totally appropriate to remember them. But if you volunteered and got killed, that's no more important than a cop dying on the street trying to thwart a robbery. and we don't have a special day to remember those cops, so I don't really care, especially for those dying in Iraq or Afghanistan.
however, for the involuntary military men, I salute you. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Don't give me the 'you wankers' bull until you've died in a war for me. Nobody else. Just me.
You can find quite a bit to sacrifice yourself to some imagined collective or greater good if you advertise it enough - but in the end, quite unbeknown to the very cattle being slaughtered, no good came of their foolish and pointless deaths, now did there?
People who enlist in the military are probably doing it for themselves or have deluded themselves into believing they are protecting their loved ones from, you know, that great ing threat looming over us. Whether it be political agendas, economic agendas, or black people, there's seems to be no shortage of reasons people see as justification for either killing one another directly or merely helping the process by pushing buttons.
You seem to believe that there is honour reserved for the sacrificial, the most lemming-like of our species. This sort of mentality is what allows impassioned viewpoints to perpetuate war and mass murder in the first place.
Oh, but look at me - some er I didn't know *died* so that I could post this. How ing ungrateful I am. |
whilst i certainly agree, i would still argue that some wars had to be fought, and those that say, defeated fascism should be shown some respect. |
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| Alex |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
pardon my ignorance, but did Canada have mandatory service in WWI or II? I believe the US did, a la "draft dodgers" but wasn't sure about Canada.
In view that people were forced to serve, and might have died, I definitely feel sorry for them and their families and believe it's totally appropriate to remember them. But if you volunteered and got killed, that's no more important than a cop dying on the street trying to thwart a robbery. and we don't have a special day to remember those cops, so I don't really care, especially for those dying in Iraq or Afghanistan.
however, for the involuntary military men, I salute you. |
Stupidest thing I've ever seen you post, and you should be ashamed of it. |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
Stupidest thing I've ever seen you post, and you should be ashamed of it. |
sad thing is, i'm not :(
to be quite honest, i do have a lot of sympathy for those who died in WW2. I've visited Omaha Beach in Normandy, France and the U.S. cemetary nearby and it was sobering to see the bunkers where the nazis mounted their machine guns on the top of the cliffs, just spraying down on the allied forced on D-Day. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the brave people that tried to break enemy lines (they were conscripted, which is why I feel that way). I didn't have any family that were touched by the WWs but still, when I studied it in history and especially watching Saving Private Ryan with the vividness, and physically being there on the beach, all of those made me respect those brave acts very much, and made me hate the nazis who could just kill like that with no remorse.
but still, for those who volunteer to get butchered, i don't understand that. for leaders to decide to sacrifice their citizens, i also don't get that. I feel like the end of WW2 had more to do with lack of supplies and cold weather (i.e. nature) on the eastern front when nazis were stopped in russia than anything else. that front spread the nazis thin and allowed the allies to flank them.
anyway, enough of my Risk analysis :p but sorry to disappoint, Alex, but that's how I feel...I feel more safe with the cops who get into the line of gang fire here in Scarborough than the idiots giving up their lives in the middle east. |
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| Alex |
| I hope you get deported, seriously. |
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| zoogla |
| quote: | Originally posted by Alex
I hope you get deported, seriously. |
lol
:rolleyes: |
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| Alex |
I guess it's a touchy subject with me.
My whole family on my dad's side and a lot on my mom's side have all been in the military. (Either US or Canada)
I have friends serving in Afghanistan and neither of them joined because they wanted to go to Afghanistan and get shot by Taleban guys.
They had joined the forces years earlier in hopes of getting a career and possibly doing some relief work abroad should the need arise.
If you agreed with the Afghan war in the first place or not, the facts are we're there now and if we leave there will be genocide and all our efforts (false as they may be to some) will have been for nothing.
I'm all for peace, one of my heroes is John Lennon ffs, but your ideas on this subject are so flawed and insensitive that you need to think a bit more about what you're saying. |
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| zoogla |
hey dude i figured you had a personal, familial connection to the subject and yes a lot of it has to do upbringing. war was never a discussion at my dinner table so i developed my ideas about it through education, and i never had a very deep-seated belief about it.
Just like you said, your friends joined the forces earlier because of the various benefits it provides (not just financial, I almost joined the air force because of the discipline it would have taught me, plus i love fast things :p). But the second your organization takes a turn in a direction you don't personally believe in, you gotta leave it!!! whether it's the army or a bank, or a law firm! lol. My argument is that when war was declared, and your friends who didn't fathom going to war may have a possibility of going, they should leave! Just because you have a US flag on your uniform, imo doesn't make you less patriotic when you quit then if i quit my job in business.
I don't know, I might have it wrong there but I honestly believe that the genocide SHOULD occur...the innocent people who just want to feed their family will outnumber the extremist politically motivated people and if the regular joes want freedom enough, they will have to fight for it themselves, old school styles. enough of this imperialistic bull.
It's when an innocent MINORITY is being wiped out, that's when I think someone like the UN should step in. Anyway, even that argument is filled with loopholes because the Taliban have weapons while the regular citizens don't... too many cans of worms...I think I'll take a nap now before work tomorrow and forget i ever posted any of this . :( |
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| kr00t0n |
| I didn't grow up with it being a big part, even though SA is part of the commonwealth, so it's not really ingrained into me, but we did observe the 2 minutes silence at work yesterday, all the phone lines were turned off and the like. |
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| Alex |
| Unbelievable, just wow. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by fayraree
I didn't have any family that were touched by the WWs |
If you believe this then you, clearly, have no understanding of history and how the two great wars shaped the world you live in today. Being of Pakistani origin you may be interested to know that over a million British Indian (of which now Pakistan was part) served in Europe during the first world war. Additionally, it was the lingering economic and social changes from the First Great War that shifted sentiment in the UK such that Britain wanted to divest itself of it's colonies. Only after the second Great War did the UK realize that they could no longer support a colony in India, which is precisely what lead to the UK to allow independence for Pakistan. Moreover, the implications of the two Great Wars for your present home are nearly immeasurable; so much so that I dare say the life you enjoy today would not have been possible without those two wars. Finally, your precious M3 would not exist if not for the second world war... as BMW only started making automobiles because they were barred from making aircraft engines in the aftermath of second great war( :p ).
| quote: | | but still, for those who volunteer to get butchered, i don't understand that. for leaders to decide to sacrifice their citizens, i also don't get that. |
The volunteers joined the war effort because they wished to; a) further the interests of their country, which would benefit those they loved, b) put an end to what they believed to be dangerous powerful nations bent on global conquest (Germany and Austria in WW1, Germany, Italy, and Japan in WWII), 3) to prevent the suffering and slaughter of countless people. Of course some joined because they wanted adventure; however, the vast majority had more noble aspirations. Perhaps you are simply not selfless enough to understand but some people do believe that there are things greater then themselves that require protection and they are willing to provide the same (even at the cost of their lives).
As far as the leaders go... that will differ for each nation in each of the wars; the reasons are far too numerous to go into in this forum.
| quote: | | I feel like the end of WW2 had more to do with lack of supplies and cold weather (i.e. nature) on the eastern front when nazis were stopped in russia than anything else. that front spread the nazis thin and allowed the allies to flank them. |
While weather and supply problems crippled Operation Barbarosa the German military would have been able to withstand those problems if not for the constant resistance of Soviet and Western Allied forces. Perhaps the biggest problem the Nazis faced was the destruction of their manufacturing base and rail lines in the Reinland due to Allied bombing. If not for that bombing the Germans would likely have been able to sustain the eastern front to the Polish Ukraine boarder at very least. That hit in their industrial capacity and the overwhelming number of soldiers that the Soviet Union threw at the eastern front is ultimately what brought the Germans down; the western allies invasion of Italy and France hastened the Soviet victory. Make no mistake, without the early actions of the Allied volunteer armies followed by the larger actions of the same armies bolstered with conscripted soldiers Western Europe would have suffered a very long Nazi occupation and Eastern Europe would have been a battlefield for a lot longer then 5 years. |
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| zoogla |
ur last argument is completely debatable, the allies were able to succeed in their invasion of france because of the fact that nazi resources were committed to the east.
and re: my beloved car and previous generations, again, neither my grandfathers nor any great uncles ever mentioned anything about the war to me when i pressed them for details (because i was really passionate about it when i was studying it) and their children (i.e. my parents and aunts/uncles) confirmed that there was nothing they knew so unless i studied my fam geneology then i wouldn't know. your generic references don't really hit home for me, and i was referring to direct references, urs were obvious :rolleyes:
and again, to Halcyon's point, saying what the "majority of volunteers'" intentions were, that's a load of bull unless you have some Ipsos Reid polls or something :p |
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