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Vancouver RCMP Taser, Assault & Kill Polish Man at Vancouver Airport (pg. 10)
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
That's exactly why I introduced my comment with the assertion that "this sort of thing becomes PROBLEMATIC in terms of national identity"
I side with him. I feel for him because he, like me, was not born here. Perhaps I can relate to how I ASSUME he was feeling. What I'm saying here is all very biased - but that sort of thing, I feel, is inescapable in a "cultural mosiac" such as Canada - hence problematic.
Having said that, I feel that this sort of cultural bias simply ADDS to MY original condemnation of the actions of the RCMP in this incident - tossing aside the idea of national background.
So slow down cowboys - I was fessing up along with my comment there |
okay. so you've just admitted that you've made a choice based on emotional response, instead of logic? i fail to see how this adds to any value in this debate
(for the record, I'm an immigrant too, and while I sympathize with the man's distress and confusion, by no means that factors into my decision making) |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dr. DAS
So the taser isn't to blame (pending an autopsy)...any change to opinions? |
A spokesman is not qualified to give that sort of judgement. He has a clear agenda: protect his company.
I still think they could have handled the situation differently. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
Whats the saying...?
"guns don't kill people, I do."
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tasers don't kill people, but cardiac arrests do?
maybe tasers should come with a warning sign that says' WARNING: tasers may cause death to people with health problems
/tongue in cheek comment |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
Whats the saying...?
"guns don't kill people, people do." |
\
fixed (am I right?):) |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
But in today's warfare, civillian are part of the battlefield, and enemy does not wear an uniform, new doctrine comes into effect, sometimes known as '3 block war'.
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Yes I agree, because clearly civilian airports in a civilized western nation are warzones :rolleyes:
If this were an occupied country, or some other such place, I could agree with you, but not in this instance. Your very mention of the Cold War is just so far out of the context of this incident, that I don't even know how to correctly retort. I just cannot agree with the application of military doctrine to a civil protection force. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
Yes I agree, because clearly civilian airports in a civilized western nation are warzones :rolleyes:
If this were an occupied country, or some other such place, I could agree with you, but not in this instance. Your very mention of the Cold War is just so far out of the context of this incident, that I don't even know how to correctly retort. I just cannot agree with the application of military doctrine to a civil protection force. |
I've said that military no longer has a Cold War mentality.
My argument may be better if phrased this way.
The usage of lethal force by military personnel and civilian police is similar in context of decision making and mentality between military and civilian police, based upon current military rules of engagement and police procedure. |
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| Ania_xox |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
okay. so you've just admitted that you've made a choice based on emotional response, instead of logic? i fail to see how this adds to any value in this debate
(for the record, I'm an immigrant too, and while I sympathize with the man's distress and confusion, by no means that factors into my decision making) |
Yo man
lol
stop yanking out my tangent here
I am just saying that cultural bias is sometimes a STRONGER cognitive force than conventional logic in situations like these.
it permeates my decision making - consciously and subconsciously
I envy you if this kind of thing doesn't factor into your decision making because - according to the common metaphor that
emotional = bad
(George Lakoff - http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html )
... then yes - the way you are thinking is "right" and the way that I am thinking is "wrong"
That doesn't change my perspective on this issue, nor does it change the fact that I have strong conviction in my beliefs and opinions and by no means have I just attempted to out and discredit all my previous comments.
This is all way too off topic and I don't like tangent-ing like this
I just needed to clarify that stuff first. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
Yo man
lol
stop yanking out my tangent here
I am just saying that cultural bias is sometimes a STRONGER cognitive force than conventional logic in situations like these.
it permeates my decision making - consciously and subconsciously
I envy you if this kind of thing doesn't factor into your decision making because - according to the common metaphor that
emotional = bad
(George Lakoff - http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html )
... then yes - the way you are thinking is "right" and the way that I am thinking is "wrong"
That doesn't change my perspective on this issue, nor does it change the fact that I have strong conviction in my beliefs and opinions and by no means have I just attempted to out and discredit all my previous comments.
This is all way too off topic and I don't like tangent-ing like this
I just needed to clarify that stuff first. |
fair enough.
pistols at dawn? :p (that's a joke btw) |
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| zokissima |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
I've said that military no longer has a Cold War mentality.
My argument may be better if phrased this way.
The usage of lethal force by military personnel and civilian police is similar in context of decision making and mentality between military and civilian police, based upon current military rules of engagement and police procedure. |
No, I understand what you were trying to say, but that in essence is what I disagree with; dogma regarding use of lethal force based on context should be very different between military and civilian police. But arguably 'lethal' force wasn't in question within the context of this situation, since tasers are less-than-lethal force. Which is what I was getting at. It is apparently 'ok' to use military tactics and apply them to civilian police since they more often than not, use less-than-lethal force. The point is that they clearly did not appraise the situation correctly (or at all) and merely just reacted to get the job done; a very militaristic action, and now how police should act. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
No, I understand what you were trying to say, but that in essence is what I disagree with; dogma regarding use of lethal force based on context should be very different between military and civilian police. |
I understand your point, but I see too much similarity in how a police use lethal force and how military use lethal force nowadays so I still disagree.
For example, Iraq and Canada doesn't change the fact that if someone is not being threatening to you, you leave them alone. If they are showing clear dangerous intent, then you shoot him. You use similar escalation of force as situation dictates.
I fail to see how a cop would react different if he got stuck in Iraq and he has to make an arrest.
| quote: | | But arguably 'lethal' force wasn't in question within the context of this situation, since tasers are less-than-lethal force. Which is what I was getting at. It is apparently 'ok' to use military tactics and apply them to civilian police since they more often than not, use less-than-lethal force. The point is that they clearly did not appraise the situation correctly (or at all) and merely just reacted to get the job done; a very militaristic action, and now how police should act. |
That's total BS.
Whenever a soldier uses lethal force, he is constantly accessing the situation. You just don't spray bullets everywhere, or go bust into a house and buttstroke everyone you see.
I'm getting a sense that you have a misunderstanding of how a military functions |
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| zokissima |
| /\ Dude, you're not reading my posts correctly. Military is one thing, and their tactics and training get them to do their job, survive, and do it well. That's not the question, nor the point here. The situation is different for a civilian police force, and you cannot use those SAME strategies. Yes, you are correct, there are many similarities, but THAT is the problem...typically in any military situation, there is no question nor tactic regarding "less-than-lethal" force, and you are trained to kill. Do those tactics fit in with a civilian police force? Was the goal of those police officers simply to assess the situation and take down the enemy, or do they not serve a broader purpose... |
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
I'm getting a sense that you have a misunderstanding of how a military functions |
Too many movies...lol
Soldiers don't train to be mindless killing machines, we train for the exact opposite. If I ask you for a ride home, a ham sandwich and fire extinguisher, I expect you to be able to decide which order I need them.
Knowing when NOT to shoot is more important then when to shoot. I did a fair amount of training with the Hamilton police (they used our armoury for training) and there are a lot of parallels to military training. The modern soldier no longer takes and holds ground, he solves problems. Like a police officer. |
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