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Vancouver RCMP Taser, Assault & Kill Polish Man at Vancouver Airport (pg. 9)
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by rabbitjoker
Read the thread title... We are talking about this RCMP one.
Your arguments are going very far. |
No, I was responding to his hypothetical scenario with dangerous criminal with guns and bomb, and I do not believe that scenario corresponds exactly to the RCMP one. |
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| Ania_xox |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
Whenever someone brings up Nazis in a convo to make a point, generally I found someone is trying to evoke an emotional response, not logical one
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Perhaps because there are many loop holes in that kind of ideology that conflict with modern policing - and lack logic
Much like the lapse in judgement that plagued the police officers who shot this man
At the same time, this sort of thing becomes problematic because of national identity. Because this situation is vague - in that we, as spectators, lack the information to properly assess this incident - I will of course side with the victim because we share the same ethnic background. It's personal. And maybe I am associating this incident with other historical stuff that I really don't want to get into.
Anyways, I'm not calling anyone a Nazi lol
This whole thing is just very upsetting. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
At the same time, this sort of thing becomes problematic because of national identity. Because this situation is vague - in that we, as spectators, lack the information to properly assess this incident - I will of course side with the victim because we share the same ethnic background. It's personal. And maybe I am associating this incident with other historical stuff that I really don't want to get into. |
That's just wrong.
If you want justice, then pick the side that you feel is right, not because of the victim's background.
This is sort of emotional response that just baffles me from people who demand justice |
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| Dr. DAS |
Yohan, you are truly a giving and compassionate person. If I saw dude with a bomb strapped to his chest, he dies where he stands. No discussion. Communication is a two-way street, and you can't drive that street when your carrying a bomb.
Now back to our RCMP situation.
Once again, I AM NOT DEFENDING THE RCMP IN THIS MATTER! What I am saying is that there is a whole lot of speculation and rushing to judgement going on here. None of you know what happened the instant before he gets shot. Period. None of you know where his hands were. Period. None of you know what his body language said to the cops. Period. So how, in absence of this information, can you villify the officer and carry on with what is tantamount to accusing him of murder? It was an accidental death. happens. I know that doesn't make it all better and certainly won't bring him back to life, but it's not like they went in Glocks blazing or hucked a grenade through the door.
If they police had waited and this guy had injured someone, everyone would be crying out as to why they didn't just tazer the beligerent man before he could hurt someone. Fair enough, they didn't use the correct procedure (as detailed in the report I posted by Chief Bill Blair), but they're hardly murderers.
And I still don't see how you can compare the RCMP using a weapon designed not to kill you to subdue unruly subjects, to the Nazis killing in the name of racial purity.
Police are like lawyers, everyone hates them until you need them. |
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| zokissima |
Re: DAS and EvilTree, I find that your line of arguing based on your experiences in military training completely outside of the context of THIS particular situation. The armed services are one thing, where you are taught to SURVIVE, and its either you or the other guy. Unfortunately, your "shoot first and let someone else do the thinking" tactics do not apply to a civil police force, and the reasons for the sheer existence of the two differing forces are completely different, and mutually exclusive. Thus all your logic based on that particular mindset just doesn't apply here. We do not live in a military state. We, as citizens, empower and place a certain amount of TRUST and FAITH into police services, hoping with good faith that their professionalism is something they force themselves to practice, thus we take it under consideration that cops are supposed to think, albeit somewhat. This isn't ing cops and robbers, where the cops are the good guys, and everyone else is bad. Regardless of the fact that the taser is a less than lethal weapon, it was clearly the weapon of choice, above and beyond even mere verbal communication, for these four officers. Are these the types of people who's salaries I pay with my taxes? Do we want to have a police force that segregates every single encounter into brutal force, such as in this instance?
Going so far as to call the cops "murderers" is a bit too far, IMO, but at the same time, I very much doubt that this incident will do anything to change or alter police tactics or mentality. |
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
...I will of course side with the victim because we share the same ethnic background. It's personal. |
..and if it turn out the officer who shot him was Polish, also?
Perhaps opinions should be based on a fair and unbiased examination of the facts, and your own moral code, instead of where you were born. |
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
Re: DAS and EvilTree, I find that your line of arguing based on your experiences in military training completely outside of the context of THIS particular situation. |
My only line of arguing is that everyone is giving the benefit of the doubt to the victim, and none to the officers.
Nobody has the answers, and everyone has an opinion already etched in granite, which is wrong. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by zokissima
Re: DAS and EvilTree, I find that your line of arguing based on your experiences in military training completely outside of the context of THIS particular situation. The armed services are one thing, where you are taught to SURVIVE, and its either you or the other guy. Unfortunately, your "shoot first and let someone else do the thinking" tactics do not apply to a civil police force, and the reasons for the sheer existence of the two differing forces are completely different, and mutually exclusive. Thus all your logic based on that particular mindset just doesn't apply here. We do not live in a military state. |
Your argument has merit if we were to based on the military mentality of Cold War, where the enemy is clearly distinguishable and you do not have to deal with civilians in battlefield.
But in today's warfare, civillian are part of the battlefield, and enemy does not wear an uniform, new doctrine comes into effect, sometimes known as '3 block war'.
Therefore new sets of rules of engagement is developed where lethal force is used only when necessary depending on scenario. No longer does armies go into places with guns blazing all the time.
So my training (and I've actually had few where it's the cops teaching stuff like escalation of force and such) does not replace or is same as police ones, but I think in a lot of cases it is similar, and I think the mental mindframe in which rules of engagement is exercised is as similar as well. |
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| exstasie |
Taser maker says product did not kill Dziekanski
VANCOUVER - The Taser did not kill Robert Dziekanski, says a spokesman for the company that makes the weapon.
The fact the Polish immigrant continued to resist police officers after he was shot proves it, he said.
"Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current is immediate," said Steve Tuttle, vice-president of communications for Taser International in an e-mailed response to requests for an interview.
"This video indicates that the subject was continuing to fight well after the Taser application," he wrote.
"His continuing struggle is proof that the Taser device was not the cause of his death."
Tuttle said the incident follows the pattern of in-custody deaths.
"Historically, medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are attributable to other factors and not the electrical discharge of the Taser system," he wrote.
He said "specifically in Canada" deaths are reported in the media as "Taser deaths," but the device "has been cleared in every case to date."
Tuttle said experts regard Tasers as the safest use-of-force tool available to police, and they have reduced injuries to suspects by up to 70 per cent and saved thousands of lives.
Seventeen Canadians have died after being shocked with a Taser since their introduction in 2001.
They have been used by the RCMP 4,000 times and at least as many times by other police forces in Canada. |
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| Ania_xox |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
That's just wrong.
If you want justice, then pick the side that you feel is right, not because of the victim's background.
This is sort of emotional response that just baffles me from people who demand justice |
That's exactly why I introduced my comment with the assertion that "this sort of thing becomes PROBLEMATIC in terms of national identity"
I side with him. I feel for him because he, like me, was not born here. Perhaps I can relate to how I ASSUME he was feeling. What I'm saying here is all very biased - but that sort of thing, I feel, is inescapable in a "cultural mosaic" such as Canada - hence problematic.
Having said that, I feel that this sort of cultural bias simply ADDS to MY original condemnation of the actions of the RCMP in this incident - tossing aside the idea of national background.
So slow down cowboys - I was fessing up along with my comment there |
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| Orko |
Whats the saying...?
"guns don't kill people, I do."
BTW - It seems there is a lot thoughtful replies, and actual civility in this thread. Lets keep it up, and make the board a better place.
Good job guys  |
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| Dr. DAS |
| So the taser isn't to blame (pending an autopsy)...any change to opinions? |
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