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Vancouver RCMP Taser, Assault & Kill Polish Man at Vancouver Airport (pg. 7)
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
I think you are oversimplifying the issue here.
You're saying that these officers should not be punished because police officers have to make split second decisions in dangerous situations, and sometimes those split second decisions end up with less than desireable outcomes. This is true, but this wasn't just any poor decision, and it wasn't just any undesireable outcome.
A man died. Even if he didn't die, using a taser in this scenario seems very unneccessary. Although non-lethal, using a taser inflicts serious agony on an individual, rendering him completely immobile. Why didn't they just try to use physical force first? They just walked in and tased him immediately. |
I'm not saying they shouldn't be reprimanded if the inquest determines they were in the wrong, but you need to keep the context of their job in mind when doing so. This man died by accident.
I am quite familiar with the effects of a taser, having been shocked myself. It hurts, but the pain goes away in a few minutes and leaves no lasting effect, unlike OC spray or a boot to the head. Even if they came in shooting, could it not be argued that they used the taser to prevent him from getting hurt in a scuffle? We don't know.
As I said before, I'm more outraged that nobody tried to revive him then I am he was tasered. |
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| Ania_xox |
This is one of the most horrific things I have ever heard.
For me this is reminiscent of National Socialists shooting people just because they could and felt like it.
For those of you speculating on the rights of the police to "take necessary action" and questioning the mental stability of this person, consider this:
You land in a site of complete cultural dislocation. You don't know the language. You are physically isolated for over 10 hours and you have no idea what you are waiting for or where you will be going and when.
Put yourself in this situation. For those of you who don't travel much and have never been in a country where English wasn't common - I can tell you this: It's like having your tongue cut off. To other people you are just an animal making noises.
Where are the ing AIRPORT Interpreters?
This story is beyond frustrating. It's unbelievable and absolutely horrifying. |
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| Dr. DAS |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
This is one of the most horrific things I have ever heard.
For me this is reminiscent of National Socialists shooting people just because they could and felt like it. |
You're comparing the police tasering a beligerent man...and the holocaust?
For real?
Say it with me....Accidental. Death.
No less tragic, but surely pales in comparison to mass murder.:rolleyes: |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by SkyHigh
What do you mean no it's not?
What do people join the army for?
What do people join the police force for?
See the logic in that? |
If you think people join the army or the police to get their ass shot off, well, I really don't know what to say.
People must be really stupid to willingly join the army or police to get shot eh? (And they spend so much time and effort training to NOT get their ass shot off)
| quote: | Originally posted by The Highroller
Dr. DAS and EvilTree:
Can you describe for us a hypothetical police brutality scenario? |
Sure.
A guy is making loud protest on someone's property. He has been making no violent actions, just shouting loud slogans.
Cops arrive, and they confront this man. After an exchange of words, in which the man has made no aggressive move or showed any intention of using violence, the cops batons the man, causing body injuries.
This is wrong because clearly the man was showing no violent intentions, but the cops use more force than necessary in order to resolve the situation, and usage of batons is unjustified.
| quote: | Originally posted by spolitta
EvilTree's comments in this topic really make me sick. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dr. DAS
Because he's not a cop-hater? Because he accepts that this could have been the unfortunate combination of a poor decision and an underlying medical condition?
Police officers need to make split-second, sometimes life and death decisions all the time. Sometimes they make the wrong one. Nobody knows what information the officers had. Nobody knows what the officers saw and felt and nobody knows what had happened to the cops on thier last call that may have affected their response.
Again, I'm not saying that using the taser was the right move, I'm just saying that the taser exists for just this kind of event.
If this guy was still alive, the cops would be heralded for resolving the situation using all the tools at thier disposal to ensure nobody was hurt.
When you make a mistake at work, you get in and have to re-do it. If you work at McDonalds, someone gets the wrong order. When a Doctor makes a bad call, someone suffers or dies. Same goes for the cops. Doctors have malpractice insurance, cops have nothing but the sharp sting of uninformed public opinion.
Perhaps the reason Yohan (eviltree) and I see this the same way, which happens to be different from everyone else, is that we have both put time in the army. We have both carried and fired weapons. We have both had bullets fly past our heads on live-fire ranges and we both know the kind of decisions the police need to make and how that wears on you. There is a deeper understanding to this extemely complex situation, which I don't think you get if you haven't buttoned up a uniform.
This is a tragedy, no doubt. This is a chance to learn and to revise procedures. The taser is a very effective weapon and a very good tool for police to have available. |
It is easy for us to be armchair generals by looking at one piece of evidence and couple of news articles and judge someone to be guilty.
What myself and Dave have been trying to do is play a bit of devil's advocate and throw some more information and other points of view to consider before you judge a man guilty.
Conflict resolution involving potentially deadly situation is one of the hardest mental decision exercise I've done, because one has to constantly access the situation, and often, you don't have all the information, not enough of information. And in one split second, the situation can change, and your buddy is dead because someone hid a gun in his jacket.
Or a cop thought a guy was hiding a gun in his vest by reaching inside quickly, but only turns out to be reaching for his wallet.
You just don't know. And this is why the cops get trained on this situation, but you can't prepare for every possibility.
BTW, this is my opinion of the video
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
Having said that and having watched all of the video, from the moment that the cops confronted the man to the man getting tasered, seems everything escalated rather fast, when the man seems to be moving away from the cops. (Does he even understand that he's dealing with cops at this point?)
I'm also rather disturbed by rather... casual body language of the cop who tasered the man. Seems very out of proportion to the situation, when the man does not seem very actively belligerent.
Well, the inquiry should bring up some interesting results. |
By no means I was condoning the RCMP in this incident. |
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| Superstring |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dr. DAS
Say it with me....Accidental. Death.
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Whoops.. sorry, killed ya. Should have asked a few questions, maybe try to calm you down.. whoopsie, sowwy :( kplzhugz?
WTF |
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| Ania_xox |
I am not comparing it to the Holocaust. That is a pretty loaded word.
I am comparing it to National Socialists killing people because they could and felt like it.
Read. Thanks.
For me, this is reminiscent of that kind of tyrannical mindset where the power one possesses s with their head and causes them to make poor decisions and then try to justify such actions based on the assumed notion that one is "bettering society"
If you can't follow what I mean then don't bother commenting.
And don't twist people's words around to try to make a point. It undermines any confidence you might have in what you are trying to argue. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
This is one of the most horrific things I have ever heard.
For me this is reminiscent of National Socialists shooting people just because they could and felt like it.
For those of you speculating on the rights of the police to "take necessary action" and questioning the mental stability of this person, consider this:
You land in a site of complete cultural dislocation. You don't know the language. You are physically isolated for over 10 hours and you have no idea what you are waiting for or where you will be going and when.
Put yourself in this situation. For those of you who don't travel much and have never been in a country where English wasn't common - I can tell you this: It's like having your tongue cut off. To other people you are just an animal making noises. |
So this means, you're allowed to break property, and throw temper tandrums?
| quote: |
Where are the ing AIRPORT Interpreters?
This story is beyond frustrating. It's unbelievable and absolutely horrifying. |
There's plenty of mistakes made in this incident.
It's just no one seems adequately prepared. (And not enough common sense exercised) |
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| Orko |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dr. DAS
Say it with me....Accidental. Death.
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You keep saying accidental, as if that makes it OK, but words that are more fitting are negligent, and reckless. Fine they didn't mean to kill him, but they DID mean to use a technique which was not right for the situation.
You say that you have been tasered before, and that there are no lasting effects, but it did hurt a lot right? Wouldn't you have rather somebody taken the time to talk rather than use force when they are in a position of power?
This case is just as much about humility and compassion as it is about the use of excessive force. We have been taught, and should always be taught that violence is the last resort (sometimes necessary). When all else fails, use force. Unfortunately, they did not exhaust all their options.
they could have tricked the guy. "oh look over there " *points*, and while he is distracted a couple of guys grab him. I've seen it work before, nobody got hurt. |
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| Superstring |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
What myself and Dave have been trying to do is play a bit of devil's advocate ... |
Here. I'll play devil's advocate.
Assume the man is a dangerous super-criminal with 4 submachines, a pack of explosives stuck to his chest, and a predator-like ray gun on his shoulder -- UEBER dangerous in other words. Are you going to approach him and taze him? No way - you first find out what he wants.
Why was this situation any different? Why would police approach someone like that without figuring out who this guy is and what he wants?
Yea, just taze him, go go go! Whoopie! Accidental death! sowwy :( |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Superstring
Whoops.. sorry, killed ya. Should have asked a few questions, maybe try to calm you down.. whoopsie, sowwy :( kplzhugz?
WTF |
pretty much. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Ania_xox
I am not comparing it to the Holocaust. That is a pretty loaded word.
I am comparing it to National Socialists killing people because they could and felt like it.
Read. Thanks.
For me, this is reminiscent of that kind of tyrannical mindset where the power one possesses s with their head and causes them to make poor decisions and then try to justify such actions based on the assumed notion that one is "bettering society"
If you can't follow what I mean then don't bother commenting.
And don't twist people's words around to try to make a point. It undermines any confidence you might have in what you are trying to argue. |
Whenever someone brings up Nazis in a convo to make a point, generally I found someone is trying to evoke an emotional response, not logical one, because Nazi is automatically bad, and that means you have to be on the side of the argument not associated with the Nazi comment.
Feel free to demonstrate with concrete proof that the RCMP went into that situation with intention of KILLING the man.
Dave and I are NOT condoning police brutality, and we want as much as you guys to see that IF the cops are guilty of negligence.
We don't think we're better than you guys, but we understand a bit better exactly how a cop think in this situation because of our experience, and we want to see more facts before we make a judgement. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| i dunno if this was mentioned, but why couldn't the police just tackle him down and hand cuff him? |
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