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The Pacific (pg. 7)
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| enydo |
| Well, there's also the fact that the vast majority of Americans think we got into WWII to stop Hitler in the first place. :p |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
That's a very generous interpretation. Perhaps there's something in the episode you can quote me to add weight to that view of it, but otherwise I don't really buy it. |
From the script (32-33)
LUZ AND JANOVEC
JANOVEC
Hey Luz. Watcha reading?
LUZ
An Article.
JANOVEC
No . About what?
Luz doesn't even look up.
LUZ
Why we're fighting the war...
JANOVEC
What's it say?
LUZ
Seems the Germans are bad... very, very bad.
JANOVEC
You don't say? Good to know... Good to know.
Hence, the name of episode 109, "Why we Fight."
In the episode, Nixon is thinking of bedding down the 101st for the night in Buchloe, a German town, and sends patrols to scour for the presence of German troops - note that this command is responsible for the discovery of the concentration camp.
Again, from the script (Page 44-46):
EXT. A FOREST - AFTERNOON
The men are now walking forward quite cautiously. Everyone's a bit more tense. A bit more on guard. A few yards later--
GARCIA
(sotto)
Hey, Bull, you smell something.
RANDLEMAN
(sotto)
Yeah...
They keep on going for a few yards, exchanging nervous glances as the trees thin...
A few yards later, the men emerge from the trees and enter a clearing.
Almost as one, they all PAUSE. They see something up ahead. But we don't see what they see.
We HEAR the SOUNDS of someone PANTING heavily as we--
CUT TO:
EXT. OUTSKIRTS OF BUCHLOE - DAY
Perconte is RUNNING at full speed down the road. He's out of breath, hence the sound of panting.
He passes a line of troopers waiting for the DUKWs to feul up, including Alley, Heffron and Wynn. Some guys are playing catch, others are nodding off, still others are reading or eating.
ALLEY
Hey! Watch it!
PERCONTE
Anyone seen Foley
HEFFRON
Nope!
PERCONTE
Speirs? How about Speirs? Anyone see Speirs?
The troopers nod no.
WYNN
He's searching buildings down the street. But Major Winters is right over there.
Perconte sprints in that direction and, sure enough, spots Winters down the road leaning against the jeep, eating some food.
PERCONTE
Major Winters! Sir! We... We found something.
Perconte tries to catch his breath. He can't speak. Winters can tell something is very wrong.
WINTERS
What?
After a few more pants.
PERCONTE
I...don't know...sir...
Clearly, at this point, they have discovered the concentration camp and clearly, by the virtue of Perconte's inability to describe it, there is no mission oriented around rescuing concentration camp victims/survivors. There was virtually no common conception of what was happening in the German interior to that point. The intent to portray a reversion of history just isn't there and if you read the script or have watched the entire series, as I have a total of 1,789 times (what about Aspergers?) ;) you can see that, in spite of the fact that the war isn't yet over, the troops are walking as though they are victors and are equally relaxed about potential engagements with the enemy. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
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None of that alters my opinion. I've already acknowledged the shock of the soldiers at what they find. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
Why We Fight was the name of some of the US Propaganda films during WW2. I really do not make the connection beyond that. You could take it in a number of ways, and yes some of it might feel that it is geared towards a "defending the jews" angle, but I really do not think that is the case.
You could take it as justification that soldiers might have felt after figuring out what was actually going on in Germany and Poland, the untold human tragedy that was the Holocaust. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
None of that alters my opinion. I've already acknowledged the shock of the soldiers at what they find. |
And even with fore knowledge of such a catastrophe, who wouldn't be shocked when they actually laid their own eyes on such a spectacle? I would be amazed, even having known of it before hand, to actually bear witness to it.
Let me be clear in my understanding that your opinion is that Hank & Co. painted the unintentional discovery of concentration camps as intentional; be it if not by the 101st Airborne then by the command of the US Army/Will of the American President/people. Is this correct?
So it's safe to assume for the purposes of this episode, although the soldiers were shocked, you are presuming a common knowledge that concentration camps did exist and that the intent was to find them and free their captives. This, I'm assuming, is correct, too?
Ergo, one would be hard pressed to rely upon such an assumption and yet bear witness to the frivolity of action the troops engage in as the victors of Germany. By your assumption, Americans in Hank's film reality are shockingly insensitive to the plight of the Jewish people in Germany, at the time, for there must have been some common knowledge, in order for your hypothesis to remain plausible, that a great many Jews had died and were suffering at the hands of the Nazi regime. And when a rational individual at the command level would be lobbying for action towards resolving this humanitarian quandary, Nixon is bantering with his peers about Whiskey.
Yet they do nothing about the problem. None of their command is concerned about it - that they are more concerned with pressing but, having such knowledge in mind, less important war matters. Surely, for your hypothesis to be true, Hank's and his writers have a dangerously skewed view of how the world operates; a phenomenal disregard for the soldiers who contributed their own experiences to support the story.
Surely, I must be misunderstanding something about your thesis because it just seems too silly in light of pure logic to be true. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
Let me be clear in my understanding that your opinion is that Hank & Co. painted the unintentional discovery of concentration camps as intentional; be it if not by the 101st Airborne then by the command of the US Army/Will of the American President/people. Is this correct? |
No, of course it isn't. You're making this far more complicated than it is. It's a simple juxtaposition of the human tragedy of a concentration camp shown in grim detail, the shock and disbelief of innocent, almost naive American troops and the overarching proclamation "Why We Fight". It clearly links why the soldiers were there fighting and dying to the holocaust. After all, it's a sentence fragment, and that concentration camp is clearly the unspoken subject. The episode shows us the horror of the holocaust and says: "This is why we fought".
The simple fact is that concentration camps, genocide or Nazi war crimes were never, at any stage, why they were fighting, not in 1942 and not in 1945. Even though the average American soldier or citizen didn't know about the holocaust, US intelligence would certainly have known of such a large scale operation. The US government knew, and they did not enter the war to stop it. Even using your generous interpretation, where the soliders take it as justification for what they've been through, it was at best a good side-effect of winning the war, and by the time Easy company found that concentration camp, the holocaust was finished business.
The funny thing is that Spielberg knew perfectly well that the Allies knew about and ignored the holocaust - the girl in red in Schindler's List is a confessed symbol of the red flag that was the holocaust, wandering through a scene of carnage and ignored by everyone. His characters in Saving Private Ryan spend the whole film unsuccessfully rationalising their actions and their place there: all they can ultimately find is the belief that they are earning their right to escape and go home. He's always portrayed the war more problematically than you might expect, which is why I don't really think he's a " yeah, America" director at all. |
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| Joss Weatherby |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No, of course it isn't. You're making this far more complicated than it is. It's a simple juxtaposition of the human tragedy of a concentration camp shown in grim detail, the shock and disbelief of innocent, almost naive American troops and the overarching proclamation "Why We Fight". It clearly links why the soldiers were there fighting and dying to the holocaust. After all, it's a sentence fragment, and that concentration camp is clearly the unspoken subject. The episode shows us the horror of the holocaust and says: "This is why we fought".
The simple fact is that concentration camps, genocide or Nazi war crimes were never, at any stage, why they were fighting, not in 1942 and not in 1945. Even though the average American soldier or citizen didn't know about the holocaust, US intelligence would certainly have known of such a large scale operation. The US government knew, and they did not enter the war to stop it. Even using your generous interpretation, where the soliders take it as justification for what they've been through, it was at best a good side-effect of winning the war, and by the time Easy company found that concentration camp, the holocaust was finished business.
The funny thing is that Spielberg knew perfectly well that the Allies knew about and ignored the holocaust - the girl in red in Schindler's List is a confessed symbol of the red flag that was the holocaust, wandering through a scene of carnage and ignored by everyone. His characters in Saving Private Ryan spend the whole film unsuccessfully rationalising their actions and their place there: all they can ultimately find is the belief that they are earning their right to escape and go home. He's always portrayed the war more problematically than you might expect, which is why I don't really think he's a " yeah, America" director at all. |
Jews. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No, of course it isn't. You're making this far more complicated than it is. It's a simple juxtaposition of the human tragedy of a concentration camp shown in grim detail, the shock and disbelief of innocent, almost naive American troops and the overarching proclamation "Why We Fight". It clearly links why the soldiers were there fighting and dying to the holocaust. After all, it's a sentence fragment, and that concentration camp is clearly the unspoken subject. The episode shows us the horror of the holocaust and says: "This is why we fought".
The simple fact is that concentration camps, genocide or Nazi war crimes were never, at any stage, why they were fighting, not in 1942 and not in 1945. Even though the average American soldier or citizen didn't know about the holocaust, US intelligence would certainly have known of such a large scale operation. The US government knew, and they did not enter the war to stop it. Even using your generous interpretation, where the soliders take it as justification for what they've been through, it was at best a good side-effect of winning the war, and by the time Easy company found that concentration camp, the holocaust was finished business.
The funny thing is that Spielberg knew perfectly well that the Allies knew about and ignored the holocaust - the girl in red in Schindler's List is a confessed symbol of the red flag that was the holocaust, wandering through a scene of carnage and ignored by everyone. His characters in Saving Private Ryan spend the whole film unsuccessfully rationalising their actions and their place there: all they can ultimately find is the belief that they are earning their right to escape and go home. He's always portrayed the war more problematically than you might expect, which is why I don't really think he's a " yeah, America" director at all. |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I think it pertained to a realization that, occurring upon discovery of the concentration camp, the end result was much more important than the reasons that America and its allies fought in the war, on the outset. |
I don't mean to set up straw-men. I think, however, instead of trying to argue the negative and say that the title, "Why we Fight" doesn't link the war effort to the holocaust and was never intended to, I will opt for my erstwhile argument.
The fact is that you're correct - that one man in particular, Raphael Lemkin, was in America trying to draw attention to it. The fact is that, when confronted with genocide of any origin, the tendency is to ignore it. This has happened, again, and again, and again.
We did know about it, not just from Mr. Lemkin, and it was not among our reasons for being there. The title of the episode, however, is meant to speak, I believe, to a higher calling than why we were actually there and however noble it would have been for us to have actually invaded Germany to protect the Jews the fact that we did, although we failed in nobility it was something those men could safely say made their sacrifices a little more bearable - knowing that their effort helped to stop that evil occurring. |
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| stren |
| finally~! i've been re-watching Band of Bro's recently, so I'm looking forward to it. I don't know much about the pacific war, so I hope I won't be disappointed |
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| Clovis |
Watched part one right now and this ing blows. It's like, generic ww2 situations ad nauseum.
The Thin Red Line, based on guadalcanal, was a million times better. The characters in it have depth, the film has a realness and sensitivity which is completely lacking in The Pacific. |
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| The17sss |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Watched part one right now and this ing blows. It's like, generic ww2 situations ad nauseum.
The Thin Red Line, based on guadalcanal, was a million times better. The characters in it have depth, the film has a realness and sensitivity which is completely lacking in The Pacific. |
Haven't seen episode 1 yet, but what you're saying about The Thin Red Line is on point. I love the ongoing existential dialogue between Sean Penn and Jim Caviezel throughout the movie. |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Watched part one right now and this ing blows. It's like, generic ww2 situations ad nauseum.
The Thin Red Line, based on guadalcanal, was a million times better. The characters in it have depth, the film has a realness and sensitivity which is completely lacking in The Pacific. |
Wait until the rest. Band of Brothers started off slow and by the end it was critically acclaimed and regarded as one of the best war time documentaries/movies of all time. |
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