Horrible, that's uncalled for and totally wrong.
RIP
Comrade Stalin
quote:
Originally posted by bARTovsky
Wikileaks claims to have obtained and decrypted video that shows US occupying forces in an Apache helicopter intentionally firing on a dozen civilians in Baghdad, including journalists working for the Reuters news organization: 22-year-old Reuters photographer, Namir Noor-Eldeen, and his driver, Saeed Chmagh, 40.
The video is accompanied by audio of the pilots' radio dialogue.
happens. It's war. Instead of crying about the war itself, how about making some noise about the politicians who sent those helicopter pilots there in the first place?
jad
quote:
Originally posted by E2EK1EL
Horrible, that's uncalled for and totally wrong.
RIP
Totally agree. May the rest in peace. Hope that the soldiers responsible for this get what they deserve.
quote:
Originally posted by VERTiG0
Looks like some normal goings-on in war to me. How were the chopper pilots supposed to know who those guys were? Not only that, there certainly did appear to be at least an RPG in one of the guys' arms.
It's a soldier's responsibility to be able to differentiate between civilians/ journalists and militants. Even if it was an RPG, collective punishment is inexcusable. Precautions always have to be taken during operations, especially if they take place in densely populated neighborhoods.
I'm not saying that innocent people don't get caught in the crossfire from time to time.. it happens.. but it's still wrong.
At the end of the day, I don't trust the US army too much.. May peace prevail in Iraq.
ChemEnhanced
wow...civilians killed in a war....never thought I'd see that coming.
Moral Hazard
Watching the video I can certainly see how the pilots thought members of the group were armed. Additionally, I can understand why the pilots were getting anxious that someone was picking up the injured man, as recovering the wounded would be a common practice for insurgents and losing a possible captive could prove a valuable loss. It's not a comfortable thing to watch and it's unfortunate; however, this is part and parcel with war.
Yohan
quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
Intent.
It's one of the fundamental concepts of our criminal justice system.
(Disclaimer: I'm not saying it's a pleasant video, or even that it's excusable, just that it's not at all the same thing as deliberately targeting civilians with a bomb. Nobody's innocent in war, but guilt exists in degrees.)
Self defence (of you and any friendlies) and perceived hostile intent.
It is a terrible video to watch. And I feel terrible for those that died in this incident.
Good job on whoever edited this video to ensure it is unbiased as possible *sarcasm*
There are a lot of unanswered questions from this vid. Keep in mind that if you're going to make a judgement on these two pilots, you should do so from their point of view, not using what other info and facts that you know.
So you have two Apaches flying in an area. First question would be, what is the tactical situation? Are there any friendly forces in the area? Is this neighbourhood known to be full of enemies? Has there been contact between friendly and enemy forces in the period of time before the video starts?
None of these questions can be answered from the video. If any of my questions are answerd yes, then the pilots would definitely be more looking for hostiles. (And it did sound like there were some Bradley elements in that area, but don't know exactly how far away)
You must understand that one bad judgement call and one of their buddies goes home in a casket because they didn't do their job properly. Adding all the adrenaline and happening all around them, not like us sitting calm in front of a computer, yeah it's harder to make critical decisions in split second notice, when lives may be at stake.
So, the next question would be, did these pilots take reasonable precautions to positively identify their targets as hostiles.
It's not just whether these guys had weapons (or perceived weapons) in their hands; it's also exactly what they were doing.
If there was indeed a firefight prior to this incident, normal reaction for civillians would be to FLEE AND HIDE from the battlefield.
If you run TOWARDS the battle, the pilots would have every reason to believe that you are showing hostile intent, because that's just not what normal people do.
Yes, these dudes are journalists and they are just trying to get a story and to their job, but think as those pilots. You don't know these guys are journalists because these journalists probably didn't tell the army that they are going to be in the area. (Otherwise, these Reuters guys would be travelling with an army unit)
These guys holding as far as the pilots can tell RPG/AK47s, look like hostiles (because the enemy wears same clothing as civillians) and moving towards the battle. (well, as far as we can tell)
What is your conclusion?
As for the van, similar story. It's good on this dude to try to help out a fellow dude, but if there is a battle, stay the hell away from that area. For all the pilots knew, since they already IDed their targets as insurgents, anyone helping these guys are also insurgents. Whether there were children or not, well, small heads barely seen through shadows of the van and helluva lot going on taking up attention of the pilots.
As for the attitude and tone of the pilots, of course they are going to feel good about themselves. As far as they knew, they just whacked a bunch of insurgents who were going to try to kill a bunch of their buddies.
As for the quotes by army officers regarding the incident, I'm going to bet they only had statements and the vids from the incidents to go by, and did not know that there were journalists in the area. Information is rarely complete in battlefield. So as far as these army guys are concerned, they just whacked a bunch of bad guys.
These pilots may be just couple of cowboys wanting to up their kill counts. But you dont know. I don't know. We don't have all the information. So, my opinion is that yes, we can discuss what happened here based upon what we know, but we should also be more aware of what we DONT know and make our judgement accordingly.
Sentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Watching the video I can certainly see how the pilots thought members of the group were armed. Additionally, I can understand why the pilots were getting anxious that someone was picking up the injured man, as recovering the wounded would be a common practice for insurgents and loosing a possible captive could prove a valuable loss. It's not a comfortable thing to watch and it's unfortunate; however, this is part and parcel with war.
Agreed 100 percent.
IF he were indeed an insurgent, they wouldve healed him up and sent back out. This in turn could in fact cost MORE civilian casualties. As mentioned above, war is hell and this happens. Brutal yes, but nothing new. I know if those were my children I would be beyond enraged, but in all truth, where does the blame really deserve to go? Soldiers, politicians, terrorists??? I think they all equally share the blame.
Fin Finnegan
If the people who were killed were the enemy, why weren't they taking cover from the hellicopter?
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by Fin Finnegan
If the people who were killed were the enemy, why weren't they taking cover from the hellicopter?
well..I would think shooting RPGs would be a little hard to fire under cover that would not allow a helicopter to see you.
It doesn't really matter anyways....people die in war...it sucks but guess what....I can't think of any war where civilians were not killed.
VDub
quote:
Originally posted by Fin Finnegan
If the people who were killed were the enemy, why weren't they taking cover from the hellicopter?
the Apache's M230 chain gun has an effective range of 1.5kms (thanx wiki) so maybe they didn't see, hear, or realize that they were being targetted...
activate
quote:
Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
well..I would think shooting RPGs would be a little hard to fire under cover that would not allow a helicopter to see you.
with the exception of the one time when the dude peeked out from behind the building with his camera pointed at the chopper, they were had their hands at their sides and backs to the helicopter for most of it.
surely if they were the aggressor, they would be acting in and aggressive manner.
ChemEnhanced
quote:
Originally posted by activate
with the exception of the one time when the dude peeked out from behind the building with his camera pointed at the chopper, they were had their hands at their sides and backs to the helicopter for most of it.
surely if they were the aggressor, they would be acting in and aggressive manner.
and as I said...it doesn't really matter....civilians die in war....it sucks but it happens. I'm not going to scream bloody murder when a military person kills a civilian during war when its not clear cut the intentions of the civilian.
