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Iraq: Wikileaks video of US military killing journalists (pg. 3)
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| gummybear |
it's disgusting..
ya happens and it's easy to say that when it's not you or your family being slaughtered..how some people would sing a different tune if they were personally affected by such acts..oh wait..that's where that wicked word "empathy" would come in..unfortunately, big segment of society lacks it...
ya happens... |
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| yankeeBaby |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yohan
Self defence (of you and any friendlies) and perceived hostile intent.
It is a terrible video to watch. And I feel terrible for those that died in this incident.
Good job on whoever edited this video to ensure it is unbiased as possible *sarcasm*
There are a lot of unanswered questions from this vid. Keep in mind that if you're going to make a judgement on these two pilots, you should do so from their point of view, not using what other info and facts that you know.
So you have two Apaches flying in an area. First question would be, what is the tactical situation? Are there any friendly forces in the area? Is this neighbourhood known to be full of enemies? Has there been contact between friendly and enemy forces in the period of time before the video starts?
None of these questions can be answered from the video. If any of my questions are answerd yes, then the pilots would definitely be more looking for hostiles. (And it did sound like there were some Bradley elements in that area, but don't know exactly how far away)
You must understand that one bad judgement call and one of their buddies goes home in a casket because they didn't do their job properly. Adding all the adrenaline and happening all around them, not like us sitting calm in front of a computer, yeah it's harder to make critical decisions in split second notice, when lives may be at stake.
So, the next question would be, did these pilots take reasonable precautions to positively identify their targets as hostiles.
It's not just whether these guys had weapons (or perceived weapons) in their hands; it's also exactly what they were doing.
If there was indeed a firefight prior to this incident, normal reaction for civillians would be to FLEE AND HIDE from the battlefield.
If you run TOWARDS the battle, the pilots would have every reason to believe that you are showing hostile intent, because that's just not what normal people do.
Yes, these dudes are journalists and they are just trying to get a story and to their job, but think as those pilots. You don't know these guys are journalists because these journalists probably didn't tell the army that they are going to be in the area. (Otherwise, these Reuters guys would be travelling with an army unit)
These guys holding as far as the pilots can tell RPG/AK47s, look like hostiles (because the enemy wears same clothing as civillians) and moving towards the battle. (well, as far as we can tell)
What is your conclusion?
As for the van, similar story. It's good on this dude to try to help out a fellow dude, but if there is a battle, stay the hell away from that area. For all the pilots knew, since they already IDed their targets as insurgents, anyone helping these guys are also insurgents. Whether there were children or not, well, small heads barely seen through shadows of the van and helluva lot going on taking up attention of the pilots.
As for the attitude and tone of the pilots, of course they are going to feel good about themselves. As far as they knew, they just whacked a bunch of insurgents who were going to try to kill a bunch of their buddies.
As for the quotes by army officers regarding the incident, I'm going to bet they only had statements and the vids from the incidents to go by, and did not know that there were journalists in the area. Information is rarely complete in battlefield. So as far as these army guys are concerned, they just whacked a bunch of bad guys.
These pilots may be just couple of cowboys wanting to up their kill counts. But you dont know. I don't know. We don't have all the information. So, my opinion is that yes, we can discuss what happened here based upon what we know, but we should also be more aware of what we DONT know and make our judgement accordingly. |
Well said, Yohan. There is SO much information that we dont know about this video, that one can not possibly make a conclusion on it in EITHER direction. As Yohan pointed out with his questionning, there are so many things to consider that we dont know, and may never know.
We also have to take into consideration the mentality of a soldier. Unless we have been there, is it just WAY too easy to preach about how someone should behave and react in war.
I refrain from making any opinion on this until I know the full details, and I would suggest to others the same. People can (often understandably) become hyperemotional over the visual details without knowing the substance behind what was going on. If they did kill civilians, then it is unfortunate, and a part of war that is most disturbing.
But, Yohan has the correct, and *educated* way of looking at this: to dissect, question, assess, evaluate before drawing a final conclusion, and we cant possibly do that without further information. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by gummybear
ya happens and it's easy to say that when it's not you or your family being slaughtered..how some people would sing a different tune if they were personally affected by such acts..oh wait..that's where that wicked word "empathy" would come in..unfortunately, big segment of society lacks it... |
What society lacks is sense, not empathy. For every one person like Yohan who actually attempts to interpret the events and try to understand what happened, there seem to be 50 more who draw immediate conclusions based on knee-jerk emotional reactions (case in point).
Again, none of that makes it any less tragic, and I'm sure I'd be "singing a different tune" if those people were my family. But what's your point? That doesn't change the fact that whoever made this video chose to edit out any and all context in order to turn it into a piece of agitprop.
And what this really highlights is the difference in mentality between sides in this war. We don't get bombarded with videos of suicide bombs and terrorist attacks because the victims' families don't want that crap plastered all over the internet and the TV news channels. They've got enough grief to deal with as it is. On the other hand, the terrorists (sorry, "insurgents") love it, because even though they see people as disposable commodities, they know we'll weep over it and it helps them justify their actions. |
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| yankeeBaby |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
What society lacks is sense, not empathy. For every one person like Yohan who actually attempts to interpret the events and try to understand what happened, there seem to be 50 more who draw immediate conclusions based on knee-jerk emotional reactions (case in point).
Again, none of that makes it any less tragic, and I'm sure I'd be "singing a different tune" if those people were my family. But what's your point? That doesn't change the fact that whoever made this video chose to edit out any and all context in order to turn it into a piece of agitprop. |
exactly. |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
This link has pictures from the actual military report that show AKs and other weapons laying around the ground on the scene.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php
So yeah, there were guns. |
Well there you go...
I knew I saw others carrying weapons...
I think though what pisses ppl off is the attitude that these soldiers take sometimes...
I would feel much better if they were more professional than a bunch of kids with 15 million dollar weapons...
But anyway, I'll say it again...
War is hell... |
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| VERTiG0 |
| It looks like a videogame. That is the scary part, there's no real connection to human lives when you're blasting people with 30mm cannon fire from 1km away looking through a video feed. |
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| Fin Finnegan |
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
It looks like a videogame. That is the scary part, there's no real connection to human lives when you're blasting people with 30mm cannon fire from 1km away looking through a video feed. |
I agree with you there... |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by VERTiG0
It looks like a videogame. That is the scary part, there's no real connection to human lives when you're blasting people with 30mm cannon fire from 1km away looking through a video feed. |
I suppose that's one way of looking at it. But if Canada ever landed in an out-and-out war (hah, who are we kidding) then I'd want to know that our soldiers and especially pilots are as emotionally detached as possible while in combat situations. |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sentinal
Agreed 100 percent.
IF he were indeed an insurgent, they wouldve healed him up and sent back out. This in turn could in fact cost MORE civilian casualties. As mentioned above, war is hell and this happens. |
by your logic it would be ok to nuke the whole country as a precaution??? war is hell....ugh.
| quote: | | There is SO much information that we dont know about this video, that one can not possibly make a conclusion on it in EITHER direction. |
the lack of information is very well documented in that clip. innocent people lost lives because of usa's "shoot first, ask quesitons later" policy.
we ("good" guys) gotta lead by example |
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| Jayx1 |
Didnt journalists used to wear a big yellow sign that said PRESS in war zones?
That would have probably solved a lot of problems here |
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