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Iraq: Wikileaks video of US military killing journalists (pg. 5)
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by VDub
Do not make it sound like these brutalities are anything new!!!
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you're missing my point. no country in the history of mankind has used nuclear weapons/weapons filled with nuclear waste except usa. i agree with you 100%, using suicide bombers is a cowardly act, one that im against with the every fibre of my being. but usa's tactics..... that's a direct hit against humanity, effectively poisoning land and water for generations to come. we still have stillborn babies with mutations of all kinds on a regular bases, 3 months old babies dying from cancer and so on. hell, even half of europe is paying the price of those actions.
http://rainbowwarrior2005.wordpress...toll-on-serbia/
italian "peacekeepers" are dropping like flies nowadays, plenty of reports of radiation related death coming from bulgaria, romania and greece. i dont even wanna comment on horrors that are being born in iraq and neighbouring countries.
im sure that anybody can see a difference between an attack of an innocent people in a market and attack on somebody's future and unborn children !!!
| quote: | | WE ARE AT WAR AND WAR IS HELL!!!! |
not a good excuse.
intent eh???
brilliant post pivot!!!! |
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| FunkyCrew |
| who's "we"? it's not "we" - it's politicians with bigger interests sending innocent soldiers to fight the most meaningless war in the history of mankind... |
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| Xavier Moriarty |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
who's "we"? it's not "we" - it's politicians with bigger interests sending innocent soldiers to fight the most meaningless war in the history of mankind... |
ugh. did those politicians pull the trigger in that video and laugh about it?? or, did they chuckle when the tank drove over the dead body??
why is almost everybody finding an excuse for a bunch of cowboys is beyond my comprehension.
but he is right, when i think about it a bit more, we are at war.
but not like this, i refuse to have anything to do with these inhuman tactics. |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty
ugh. did those politicians pull the trigger in that video and laugh about it?? or, did they chuckle when the tank drove over the dead body??
why is almost everybody finding an excuse for a bunch of cowboys is beyond my comprehension.
but he is right, when i think about it a bit more, we are at war.
but not like this, i refuse to have anything to do with these inhuman tactics. |
are you at war? I'm not at war! so there is no "we". |
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| ChemEnhanced |
We = The Human Race
and we are at war with everything |
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| FunkyCrew |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
We = The Human Race
and we are at war with everything |
yeah ooookey |
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| PivotTechno |
| quote: | Originally posted by ChemEnhanced
We = The Human Race
and we are at war with everything |
Another vantage, from someone with considerable experience in military procedure...
I spent 20 years in the USAF (1986-2006) working in reconnaissance and air-to-air / air-to-ground engagements and spend thousands of hours in the air listening to radio broadcasts and directing or assisting in engagements. I’m not stupid enough to think that combat isn’t messy, gruesome, and often chaotic. But the circumstances of that video are very clear in my mind (and harken back to the shooting down of U.N. helicopters over Northern Iraq).
It was horrible to watch for two reasons: first, the opening salvo, and second, the follow-on shooting of the van. The initial engagement probably fit very narrowly under the rules of engagement (ROE) during that time period in Iraq. But not the second.
During my 20 years of certification, review, and application of ROE across Desert Storm and it’s follow-ons, all the Balkans conflicts, and Iraqi Freedom, there have been precious few that allowed for engagement of air or ground targets without requiring positive identification regardless of time or situation (an exception includes a fixed-wing aircraft present in a no-fly zone). In fact, most ROE have required either that positive ID or a hostile act to be in progress.
The first question that came to mind as the pilots were ID’ing the targets was: What are they doing right now that requires killing them? How many people in Iraq have guns? Does having a gun meet the requirement to engage and destroy? I can’t necessarily answer those questions from the video but that is where I believe the narrow definition of ROE criteria might not have been met. Regardless of those questions, when one looks at time and place and what may have been the ROE for that time, I don’t have serious issue with the first barrage.
The follow-on is what turned my stomach. After a journalist – or any target – has been mowed down by .30 caliber fire (his legs blasted away) there is no need to then wait and hope that you can just blast him to kingdom come – for fun. Make no mistake about the radio comms throughout this event, but particularly prior to the van destruction: there is no urgency in the voices, at all. This isn’t a by-product of the profession military man (since I know that will be the first defense), because my thousands of hours of experience can tell when urgency, death, and necessity are foremost in the engager – there’s none here.
Once a downed enemy is being assisted, Red Cross or not, in a non-military vehicle that poses no threat, then engagement is a pretty strong violation of whatever ROE is in place, and a moral code of soldiers. There was no evidence in the video – or from the Army in response to this event – that indicates these were combatants who had been tailed from a firefight and targeted. This appears to be a group of men ID’d as insurgents from quite a distance – purely visual. We know mistakes were made in ID’ing guns vs. cameras, but I don’t condemn the initial attack, under the fog of war ideal. However, the follow-on slaughter that involved the van – and the kids being there doesn’t make it better or worse, objectively – is exactly the type of engagement we must avoid.
When separated, as they clearly are along this timeline, my support of the first salvo in now way excuses the second, or vice versa. As military men, we don’t do what they did to that van – ever. They know it, the chain of command knows it, we know it. |
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| gummybear |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abercrombie
I don't know how you can say that... very harsh! You shouldn't accuse a person like that.
If you don't like what he posts, block his posts simple as that. |
Please AJ, I'm just calling it like I see it..WHICH by the way is something Digi has made a name for himself by doing..calling it like it is..
As for being harsh..the person you're defending is probably one of the harshest on this board.
I think Yankee mentioned something about overreaction. In my opinion there is not ENOUGH reaction from people. We are so utterly insulated.
ps. Pivot, you are a true intellect. Great posts..:) |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by FunkyCrew
who's "we"? it's not "we" - it's politicians with bigger interests sending innocent soldiers to fight the most meaningless war in the history of mankind... |
Listen Kris...
If there are CANADIAN troops fighting in a war which WE as taxpayers are paying for and they were sent there by the politicians that WE elected(:whip: :whip: :whip: ) then WE, as a unified nation, are at war... |
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| VDub |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jayx1
thank god we didnt have the internet in world war 2 because i think wed all be speaking german today. |
Amen to that... |
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| Magnetonium |
This is not the first nor the last piece of evidence that shows American war crimes in Iraq. But then again - virtually every war has war crimes. Therefore its virtually impossible to stop these things, but they can make sure that these things dont happen often.
Releasing this video will be a huge boost for Wikileaks, absolutely. They needed it. The website has had some serious financial issues as of late, even forced to shut down temporarily in February. Not enough people who give a . Most people wont contribute a dollar, ignorance is bliss?
What worries me is not the incident itself but the numerous attempts by governments to shut down Wikileaks. We need to know of such crimes, they will always be debated, but never silenced. Surely, militants in Iraq will use these tapes to their advantage, unfortunately, but we must not allow American troops (or any other forces) to commit crimes and cover them up. Tapes like these will discourage American troops from committing incindents like these in the future. Covering them up will only allow them to repeat again. |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by gummybear
Please AJ, I'm just calling it like I see it..WHICH by the way is something Digi has made a name for himself by doing..calling it like it is..
As for being harsh..the person you're defending is probably one of the harshest on this board.
I think Yankee mentioned something about overreaction. In my opinion there is not ENOUGH reaction from people. We are so utterly insulated.
ps. Pivot, you are a true intellect. Great posts..:) |
just because someone has an opinion that contradicts a certain group or country doesnt mean they are racist or "anti" something. This is the type of language that tends to discredit those who actually make legitimate claims of racism.
I see this kind of accusation all the time. Whether it's muslims claiming discrimination based on security issues or for support of Israel for example, or groups like the B'nai Brith claiming that someone is an anti semite simply because they oppose Israel's policies.
Sure, we ALL have our biases but lets be civil here. |
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