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"Free will is the consequence of a Divine creation" (pg. 16)
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| AlphaStarred |
| Thanks dude! =D :3 |
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| MSZ |
Where is that Hal fellow when you need him. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
So you don't think G-d may be beyond human logic? |
Logic is logic... if there is a divine entity that matches any human conception of God then that entity is one of logic and it's logic will be no different then our logic. The reason that this needs to be taken as true is because the universe works on logic, the human concept of God requires that God be the source of all nature, if nature is logical then it's source must also be logical; subsequently, if logic exists it must exist in God. Of course, God's knowledge is more complete then human knowledge (again assuming a God) so it may very well arrive at differing conclusions then man would using the same logical processes but it is not the logic that differs; rather, it is the underlying facts that inform said logic. God's logic is the same as ours. That isn't to say that humans can comprehend the divine; however, we are endowed with at least this one trait of the divine... of interest, contrary to your initial statements about free will being a consequence of creation, logic likely is a consequence of creation, all all things in the universe are governed by it. I'd recommend you read Saint John Paul's encyclical Fides et Ratio.
Additionally... with respect to the can God make a paradoxes, none of these are actually paradoxical as if one accepts the notion of an all-powerful god then one must also accept that said god has the ability to entirely alter existence thus they would be able to create a burrito so hot they could not eat it and eat it while lifting the rock so heavy they could not lift it and slam-dunking it into a circular square basket while convincing Allan Iverson to practice. See, if one controls nature then all limits are arbitrary, impossible things can at the same time be possible, as all these words have no meaning once one removes the rules governing existence. Of course, given that if a god exists it is a being of logic and reason one can conclude that said god would not do such things as removing the fundamental rules said god set in place during creation would not be either logical or reasonable. Sadly, it seems that God has determined removing the limits of your stupidity to also be unreasonable.
Finally, once again I find myself to be a piss-poor reflection of the divine, as my re-entering this thread is neither logical or reasonable. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
...if nature is logical then it's source must also be logical... |
I'm not saying G-d is not logical, but how would you express, in logic, what may have occurred before the Big Bang?
| quote: | | Additionally... with respect to the can God make a paradoxes, none of these are actually paradoxical as if one accepts the notion of an all-powerful god then one must also accept that said god has the ability to entirely alter existence thus they would be able to create a burrito so hot they could not eat it and eat it while lifting the rock so heavy they could not lift it and slam-dunking it into a circular square basket while convincing Allan Iverson to practice. See, if one controls nature then all limits are arbitrary, impossible things can at the same time be possible, as all these words have no meaning once one removes the rules governing existence. |
Exactly.
| quote: | | Of course, given that if a god exists it is a being of logic and reason one can conclude that said god would not do such things as removing the fundamental rules said god set in place during creation would not be either logical or reasonable. |
How would you explain the splitting of the Red Sea? Or would you instantly dismiss it as an impossible occurrence that never actually happened?
Also, if you accept the possibility that G-d exists, and is therefore all-powerful, then can He not also perform "miracles" that go beyond logic (such as the splitting of the Red Sea)? Furhtermore, if He is all-powerful, then He can be omniscient and omnipresent as well, yes? Isn't this beyond logic? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
I'm not saying G-d is not logical, but how would you express, in logic, what may have occurred before the Big Bang? |
Well, the first thing would be to understand that there is no such thing as "before" the big-bang. Time could not exist within the singularity, as time is a measure of distance. Since time did not exist until the moment the singularity began to expand there can be no "before" the big-bang. Similarly, there would be no physics within the singularity. Without time, without physics, we lack the framework to understand in any meaningful sense what the nature of existence was prior to the big bang thus the logical course would be to refrain from speculating. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Without time, without physics, we lack the framework to understand in any meaningful sense what the nature of existence was prior to the big bang thus the logical course would be to refrain from speculating. |
Then obviously our understanding, according to you, is only limited to logic. But since there may have been something before the Big Bang, even though it's beyond our logic, it nevertheless may be true, yes? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
How would you explain the splitting of the Red Sea? Or would you instantly dismiss it as an impossible occurrence that never actually happened?
Also, if you accept the possibility that G-d exists, and is therefore all-powerful, then can He not also perform "miracles" that go beyond logic (such as the splitting of the Red Sea)? |
I don't dismiss it (or any reported miracle) as a possibility but I have little reason to believe it happened in a material sense or at very least in the same way that we have come to understand it.
If god exists, can he perform miracles that go beyond logic? Sure, but why would he... is it not more logical for one who created all nature to use his creation within the framework initially established rather than to completely circumvent that framework in order to impose his will? People look for God in the things that are contrary to nature, contrary to scientific understanding... if signs of god are anywhere they would be within nature. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Then obviously our understanding, according to you, is only limited to logic. But since there may have been something before the Big Bang, even though it's beyond our logic, it nevertheless may be true, yes? |
No you idiot... there is no BEFORE... time doesn't exist until the big bang... that is the start of time... there is only AFTER. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
If god exists, can he perform miracles that go beyond logic? Sure, but why would he... is it not more logical for one who created all nature to use his creation within the framework initially established rather than to completely circumvent that framework in order to impose his will? |
Good point. However, since we cannot logically explain the splitting of the Red Sea, the 10 plagues of Egypt, the complexity of the brain and feelings such as love, remorse, and compassion, and perhaps other things that have happened and continue to happen, then G-d must surely be beyond logic. Thanks for clearing that up, and thank you for confirming that there may be something indeed beyond logic, aka a Creator, if you will. :) |
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| Jon_Snow |
| Hey Moral what's your take on free will that's if you have any time or energy left from trying to talk sense to an idiot. |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| For 's sakes, stop writing G-d. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Good point. However, since we cannot logically explain the splitting of the Red Sea, the 10 plagues of Egypt, the complexity of the brain and feelings such as love, remorse, and compassion, and perhaps other things that have happened and continue to happen, then G-d must surely be beyond logic. Thanks for clearing that up, and thank you for confirming that there may be something indeed beyond logic, aka a Creator, if you will. :) |
You are desperate, desperate to believe yourself.
What the hell actually happened to you in that religious commune that ed your mind up so badly in the first place? |
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