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"Free will is the consequence of a Divine creation" (pg. 18)
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| Lews |
| Guys, if he doesn't believe in morality, decency, or happiness without God, please don't try to convince him God doesn't exist. It'll end poorly for someone. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Thankfully, after having had virtually no relief for the past nearly 3 years, I believe G-d may have been merciful and forgiving with me, and healed me through Iboga from all the negative, insufferable "symptoms" I had during my "condition." |
ahhhhhhhhhh hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa.
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hahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
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| Mr.Mystery |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
It'll end poorly for someone. |
For all of us. |
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| Jon_Snow |
FuhcfuukcFfffubckfukch |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
Guys, if he doesn't believe in morality, decency, or happiness without God... |
That's not what I said. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Good point. However, since we cannot logically explain the splitting of the Red Sea, the 10 plagues of Egypt, the complexity of the brain and feelings such as love, remorse, and compassion, and perhaps other things that have happened and continue to happen, then G-d must surely be beyond logic. Thanks for clearing that up, and thank you for confirming that there may be something indeed beyond logic, aka a Creator, if you will. :) |
Um... you've made quite the leap there. First, you have assumed that the miracles described in Exodus happened as described; that is a bad assumption, as there is no evidence that such things happened and even if they did that they happened as described. Just because I will not preclude the possibility that they happened does not mean that I accept that they did. Since we have no way of knowing whether or not they occurred but we do know that they are improbable then the most logical position to take would be one of non-committed skepticism. Next you have assumed that we cannot logically explain the complexity of the brain, love, remorse, etc. I'm sure that there are many neuroscientists out there that would dispute your claim that we cannot explain these things; however, even if we accept that we cannot at present explain these things that does not mean that these things are explainable or beyond logic; rather, it simply means that we are presently lacking sufficient knowledge to explain them. Finally, you have concluded that our lack of knowledge regarding things that may have happened but likely did not means that not only is there a creator but said creator is not bound by logic. That final assumption simply flies in the face of the fact that the universe functions within the confines of logic and reason, which, if it is a creation of a god then necessitates that logic and reason are attributes of god. I'm sorry, but your assumptions are unsupported, unreasonable, ill-conceived, and betray a great deal of weakness in your ability to reason something through without trying to bend it to fit with what you hope to be true. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
I don't need my beliefs to be validated. I only want to show the contradictions in others' supposed beliefs in pure science. I believe I have already shown that in Moral Hazard's belief in the possibility of miracles, hence things beyond logic, hence the possibility of G-d, who is thus beyond logic. Same thing with Lews. From the start, I wanted to see what people believe in, which is why I started the topic, and see if people can believe in the possibility of a Creator, provided they already believe in the possibility of occurrences that are beyond logic and beyond the explanation of science. |
You have succeeded in nothing. A) I do not dismiss the possibility of there being a God. I believe in the existence of God. That said, I also understand that this is a belief and not knowledge. I also believe that if a god exists and is the creator of all then it would also be the creator of all the mechanisms we can observe through science; subsequently, we should expect that if this god intervenes in his creation then he would do so through scientifically explainable means (why create a framework then not follow it?). B) You have assumed my refusal to dismiss the possibility of miracles is tantamount to a belief in miracles, this is a poor assumption; just because one accepts the possibility of a thing does not mean they believe in the reality of said thing. I accept that there is a possibility that Miss Pie may one day bake me a pecan pie and give me a hand job while I eat it but that does not mean that I believe it will happen. C) We need to define miracle here... you clearly think I believe a miracle would be something that is unexplainable by science, which may be the most correct definition (I'll concede that); however, common vernacular has expanded the definition of miracle to essentially mean divine intervention, which I do not preclude the possibility of; however, that does not necessitate that said intervention would be contrary to the laws that govern nature, thus, would not be beyond logic.
You are trying very hard to validate your beliefs but you are doing it incorrectly. If you want to validate your beliefs then you need to challenge them and hold them up to honest scrutiny... any beliefs that pass that scrutiny are worth keeping. What you are doing is disingenuous in the extreme and will not serve any useful purpose. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
i often wonder how craig manages to escape TA without being covered in everyone else's torrent of adoring jism.
for what it's worth mate, you did far more to tame my atheism than anything else, ever :) |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jon_Snow
Hey Moral what's your take on free will that's if you have any time or energy left from trying to talk sense to an idiot. |
I'll be honest, I'm on the fence about free will. Without question I believe that we perceive ourselves as having free will; however, I'm not entirely convinced we actually do. The reason I say this is that we make decisions based on a multitude of stimuli informed by past experience. That unique mix of stimuli and experience will only ever exist once and in that moment we make a decision, which, it seems to me is the only decision we could have made in that situation. We can never be faced with the same decision, stimuli, and experience again... it is a one time thing, thus we never have the opportunity to make a different decision. So, we may believe that we chose one thing or another but did we actually? Was there ever a possibility we would have chose differently? I don't know. Of course, this does not mean that the future is knowable or predictable. It does not mean that one is fated to a pre-determined, externally formulated, destiny. It just means that our actions are based on the combination of stimulus and experience we are exposed to in that moment, since we cannot change these things I have a hard time concluding that our will is free. We are; nevertheless, in control of our own actions so if one restricts their conception of free will to being an internal locus of control then I believe free will exists. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i often wonder how craig manages to escape TA without being covered in everyone else's torrent of adoring jism.
for what it's worth mate, you did far more to tame my atheism than anything else, ever :) |
Thanks? |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
B) You have assumed my refusal to dismiss the possibility of miracles is tantamount to a belief in miracles, this is a poor assumption... |
No. I haven't assumed anything. That fact that you believe in the possibility of miracles (which, as you've conceded, may go beyond logic and science), then obviously the possibility of a Creator who can perform these miracles (aka acts beyond logic) exists. But I'm just reiterating what I've said before. |
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| Dykes_on_Jay |
| God performed the holocaust. |
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