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"Free will is the consequence of a Divine creation" (pg. 19)
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I'll be honest, I'm on the fence about free will. Without question I believe that we perceive ourselves as having free will; however, I'm not entirely convinced we actually do. The reason I say this is that we make decisions based on a multitude of stimuli informed by past experience. That unique mix of stimuli and experience will only ever exist once and in that moment we make a decision, which, it seems to me is the only decision we could have made in that situation. We can never be faced with the same decision, stimuli, and experience again... it is a one time thing, thus we never have the opportunity to make a different decision. So, we may believe that we chose one thing or another but did we actually? Was there ever a possibility we would have chose differently? I don't know. Of course, this does not mean that the future is knowable or predictable. It does not mean that one is fated to a pre-determined, externally formulated, destiny. It just means that our actions are based on the combination of stimulus and experience we are exposed to in that moment, since we cannot change these things I have a hard time concluding that our will is free. We are; nevertheless, in control of our own actions so if one restricts their conception of free will to being an internal locus of control then I believe free will exists. |
That's what I was saying in a previous post that if we could replay an event it would seem logical to expect that the our decision would be the same. While we don't know the future we can only act based our biological make up (all the things that make up who we are). Knowing that we truly don't have free will doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make the best decisions possible or are not responsible for our decisions.
I think as humans we desire to be separate or above the laws that govern the university because we are self aware. Maybe we shouldn't be upset that free will is not what we want it to be anymore than when we discovered the earth wasn't the center of our solar system.
What I find interesting is that even the most basic and fundamental ideas such as free will do not operate as one would like. |
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
No. I haven't assumed anything. That fact that you believe in the possibility of miracles (which, as you've conceded, may go beyond logic and science), then obviously the possibility of a Creator who can perform these miracles (aka acts beyond logic) exists. But I'm just reiterating what I've said before. |
All you've done is base your belief system on highly improbable events. By lowering the bar you have inadvertently opened the door to any religious belief systems. Whether it be ancient Greek mythology or Scientology, they are all possible making your subjective beliefs to be quite unremarkable and arbitrary in the grand scheme of things. Great you've gone to a religious buffet and picked out what would be most beneficial to you. How can you expect that would have any bearing on anyone else? |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Jon_Snow
All you've done is base your belief system on highly improbable events. |
No. I've already mentioned numerous times that my "belief system" is based primarily on my own experiences, which also includes having studied various philosophies and other belief systems. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
No. I haven't assumed anything. That fact that you believe in the possibility of miracles (which, as you've conceded, may go beyond logic and science), then obviously the possibility of a Creator who can perform these miracles (aka acts beyond logic) exists. But I'm just reiterating what I've said before. |
The recognition that a thing is possible is not equivalent to recognition that said thing exists. Is it possible that there is a creator, yes, does that mean your vision of a creator exists, no. Additionally, had you read all that I wrote you would note that I don't believe that divine intervention, if any divinity exists and does intervene in the world, would occur in a manner that is contrary to nature, reason, and logic. You display some of the worst confirmation bias I have ever born witness to. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
No. I've already mentioned numerous times that my "belief system" is based primarily on my own experiences, which also includes having studied various philosophies and other belief systems. |
You are welcome to whatever beliefs you like; however, you need to recognize that they are beliefs, not knowledge, and you cannot claim a truth that is entirely dependent on a belief. Just because you believe a thing to be true does not mean that it is. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
The recognition that a thing is possible is not equivalent to recognition that said thing exists. |
Hence I wrote "possibility."
| quote: | | Additionally, had you read all that I wrote you would note that I don't believe that divine intervention, if any divinity exists and does intervene in the world, would occur in a manner that is contrary to nature, reason, and logic. |
I did note this. How would you explain the possibility of miracles (which, as you've already conceded, may go beyond logic), then?
And you've also wrote this, which would imply that you accept the possibility of a Creator, who may act beyond logic:
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
If god exists, can he perform miracles that go beyond logic? Sure... |
| quote: | | You are welcome to whatever beliefs you like; however, you need to recognize that they are beliefs, not knowledge, and you cannot claim a truth that is entirely dependent on a belief. Just because you believe a thing to be true does not mean that it is. |
Hence I wrote "possibility." |
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
How would you explain the possibility of miracles (which, as you've already conceded, may go beyond logic), then?
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By definition "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."
The lower your understand of scientific law the more likely you'll attribute it as a miracle. If I cured someone of a deadly infection by giving them antibiotics in a remote village in Papa New Guinea untouched by the modern world they would deem it as a miracle while anyone in the civilized world wouldn't. This demonstrates the subjective nature of miracles and their uselessness in proving anything about the existence of god. |
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| Lews |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
You display some of the worst confirmation bias I have ever born witness to. |
That's why I gave up talking to him. Literally no point in going on. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
Hence I wrote "possibility." |
I don't think anybody in this thread would deny the possibility of a God. You didn't have to waste your time on all that circular reasoning, begged-questions and laughable examples to successfully establish that. |
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| cyanghost109 |
| Where's your evidence? You can't assert that a God gives us free will and expect everyone to simply hold faith in it especially when modern science contradicts Scripture. |
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| AlphaStarred |
| quote: | Originally posted by cyanghost109
You can't assert that a God gives us free will and expect everyone to simply hold faith in it... |
You don't believe we have free will?
| quote: | | ...especially when modern science contradicts Scripture. |
Example(s)? |
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| Jon_Snow |
| quote: | Originally posted by AlphaStarred
You don't believe we have free will? |
Can I answer your question with another question? |
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