|
General Iraq War thread - Use this Thread only ! (pg. 18)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Technaut |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee
so in other words, its ok for America to use nukes but other countries annot even develop their own huh?? |
feel free to carry on and put wors in my mouth. |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
Well, since nobody else came here, I will attempt to defend the peaceful option case, although I am generally not always against the war. I was 100% for the war on Afghanistan, for example, and I wished for the Taliban to be destroyed way before events on 11.9.
[hippie mode]
Anyway, historically, peaceful resistance has been shown to work on some occasions. The whole of christianity, and it's child-religion, islam, are based on the idea of peaceful resistance. Also, Ghandi ultimately had succeeded to free India with peaceful resistance. The peace loving hippie attitude is based on the idea that a very large majority of people is generally against wars and violence, so if that mass is to be activated to passively disobey duties and orders, the war-mongering leaders will find themselves unable to controll the masses, and will therefore be forced to give up on their plans. A good example for that, as I stated earlier is christianity, although it took a lot of sacrifices. While the earliest christians were murdered and tortured, their preachings about better life and peaceful views which asked for no revenge caused large opressed masses of people to become interested about their ideology, and ultimately to join their cause. So for every christian that peacefully fell, many new have risen with the same amount of zeal. Ultimately, the Roman government realized that the peaceful christian masses became so large that they finally had to recognize them as a legitimate religion, and finally to adopt christianity as a state religion. Ghandi also managed to succeed with passive peaceful resistance, because while people were not actively fighting, they obeyed only direct orders, while giving up on any initiative. A country couldn't function in that way, and also, those people couldn't have been arrested for doing nothing, so it was finally better for the british to give up on India than to bother with it so much.
[/hippie mode]
Of course, while such peaceful resistance has infact proven to be successful on occasions, it has often failed, and had all of it's members slaughtered. A good example would be the heretics from Albijon (or whatever it's spelled) which attempted to propagate a new and more peaceful version of catholicism shortly after the 1054 breakup. They were all slaughtered, and the richest and most developed european region at the time was totally ruined. Those sorts of peaceful initiatives work only when a large majority of people is in a sort of depressive decadent mood.
I myself am against this war on Iraq however. Basically it is because Saddam has not been proven to have any WOMDs prior to war, and even after the war starded, he still shows no signs of having those. Now I know that severals SCUDs he launched were a breach of a UN resolution, they are not such a serious breach that would call for a war. You can't attack a suspicious person just because he's suspicious, you have to prove your suspicion in order for your attack to be just. Same goes with countries. |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
| HRT1 is the best! They not only use CNN/BBC/TV5 footage all the time, they just have regular CNN/BBC/TV5 broadcast and a translator to croatian. |
|
|
| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by bassaholix
Ill keep it short and sweet...
We can't make a difference because we don't have the power... no one has forced Mr Bush off his seat because no one has come to the senate and said this man is wrong.. all they have done is PRoTESTED on the actions ... not to take him off the #1 seat...
if we can get him to resign or have him reinstated by sumone that truly isn't self centered and a war loving man.. then there we go... |
The only way would be if he would resign (he won't), or for him to be impeached (spelling?), or for him to lose the election next year...
Let's hope for the 3rd one @ least. :toothless |
|
|
| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
Well, since nobody else came here, I will attempt to defend the peaceful option case, although I am generally not always against the war. I was 100% for the war on Afghanistan, for example, and I wished for the Taliban to be destroyed way before events on 11.9.
[hippie mode]
Anyway, historically, peaceful resistance has been shown to work on some occasions. The whole of christianity, and it's child-religion, islam, are based on the idea of peaceful resistance. Also, Ghandi ultimately had succeeded to free India with peaceful resistance. The peace loving hippie attitude is based on the idea that a very large majority of people is generally against wars and violence, so if that mass is to be activated to passively disobey duties and orders, the war-mongering leaders will find themselves unable to controll the masses, and will therefore be forced to give up on their plans. A good example for that, as I stated earlier is christianity, although it took a lot of sacrifices. While the earliest christians were murdered and tortured, their preachings about better life and peaceful views which asked for no revenge caused large opressed masses of people to become interested about their ideology, and ultimately to join their cause. So for every christian that peacefully fell, many new have risen with the same amount of zeal. Ultimately, the Roman government realized that the peaceful christian masses became so large that they finally had to recognize them as a legitimate religion, and finally to adopt christianity as a state religion. Ghandi also managed to succeed with passive peaceful resistance, because while people were not actively fighting, they obeyed only direct orders, while giving up on any initiative. A country couldn't function in that way, and also, those people couldn't have been arrested for doing nothing, so it was finally better for the british to give up on India than to bother with it so much.
[/hippie mode]
Of course, while such peaceful resistance has infact proven to be successful on occasions, it has often failed, and had all of it's members slaughtered. A good example would be the heretics from Albijon (or whatever it's spelled) which attempted to propagate a new and more peaceful version of catholicism shortly after the 1054 breakup. They were all slaughtered, and the richest and most developed european region at the time was totally ruined. Those sorts of peaceful initiatives work only when a large majority of people is in a sort of depressive decadent mood.
I myself am against this war on Iraq however. Basically it is because Saddam has not been proven to have any WOMDs prior to war, and even after the war starded, he still shows no signs of having those. Now I know that severals SCUDs he launched were a breach of a UN resolution, they are not such a serious breach that would call for a war. You can't attack a suspicious person just because he's suspicious, you have to prove your suspicion in order for your attack to be just. Same goes with countries. |
so him shooting Scuds that he SWORE he did not have doesnt go to show you that this murderous tyrannt is a liar?...who knows whatelse he lyed about...
What does it take a nuke up your ass?
besides war has started Hussein is prob dead....booo hooo.... |
|
|
| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by BTG
I saw a Anti-War Protest get violent today on tv.
Now how the hell does that make sence at all?!
These stupid tree huggers are saying "War isn't the answer, violence doesn't solve anything" but when nobody listens to them, what do they do? They start breaking things, and getting violent.
gg hippies. |
True dat.
They had a "vommit" protest in San Francisco today I believe or yesterday. A bunch of people made themselves vommit in front of a federal building...:stongue: |
|
|
| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
so him shooting Scuds that he SWORE he did not have doesnt go to show you that this murderous tyrannt is a liar?...who knows whatelse he lyed about...
What does it take a nuke up your ass?
besides war has started Hussein is prob dead....booo hooo.... |
Him being a liar is not so much in question. But there is a difference whether he has thousands of tons of chemical poisons ready to be sprayed or if he has several old Scuds. A full scale military operation with thousands of civillian deaths is not a fair price for destroying several almost obsolete missiles (which btw can't reach much further than Israel). |
|
|
| montie |
| quote: | Originally posted by SportTrance
I felt it necessary to post this here......
This is for all those against war in general. You want to argue, bring it. I have myself, and about 2000 years of history to fight with. I could get technical, talk politics, this and that, but its all reaaaaaaally quite simple.
Lets begin.
In my opinion, the concept that ALL problems in this world, can be solved by just words, is honestly, one of the most pathetic, naive, ignorant beliefs I know of. Regardless of this war, or even whats it about, or what YOU think its about, you can throw your peace signs around all you want, but I'll have you know, you have not changed one single thing, in over 2000 years. If you step outside your peace hugging huddle, step outside your door, you'll come to realize, there are people in this world who literally think completely different. You'll realize, there are people that want NOTHING else, than power. You have no concept of greed, hate, or anger. Every single war since the beginning of time, has only been over ONE thing. We call it, power.
What every single one of you peace tree hugging vegetarians need, is a run in with a psychotic man with a bat. TRY AND CONVINCE THAT MAN TO STOP BEATING YOU TO THE GROUND. If you can convince him to stop, without using ANY police force, and no physical defense, then my god, you have found the answer to world peace. UNTIL THEN, look into the words power, greed, hate, anger, opression, and fear.
Now on to being more serious......
One thing anti-war protestors haven't been able to show in over 2000 years, is a solution. I am not speaking of this war specifically, infact, this entire post has nothing to do with this current war. I am talking of wars that have taken place in history. The hard fact is, YOU HAVE NO SOLUTION. YOU NEVER HAVE, YOU PROBABLY NEVER WILL. Lets go back about 60 years, and look at Hitler. If you HONESTLY think you personally could have convinced Hitler himself, that he didn't need to conquer an entire continent and the rest of the world, then you are TRULY fooling yourself. By assuming peace is possible, with ALL people in this world, is EXTREMELY ignorant. You have no concept of pyschology, and no concept of difference. Keep in mind, this has NOTHING to do with this current war.
Face it. You never have, and never will have a solution. As long as humans think different, there will be dispute, physical or not. You SIMPLY DO NOT realize, that with good people, there will be bad people. You're simply trying to convince the world, that disputes can ALL be solved, by words and understanding. You're asking and trying to change peoples minds and ways of thinking. Unfortunately to you, a lot of peoples way of thinking, are opposite to yours. If you change that, you change one of the most important, valuable things, to human life, free thinking.
War only exhists, when there is NO other solution. The question since the beginning of time, is, what is the other solution. If you're going to keep waving your pretty banners, and just yell out what you THINK might help, stop wasting your time. Face it, you have no solution. Your recommendations have been tried, and have been proven useless over, and over again in every history book ever written. If you're concepts, ideas, and beliefs ever actually worked, believe me, we all would have seen world peace A LONG TIME AGO. You really have to ask yourself, what you would have done, 60 years ago, if your name was Churchill.
I am not for war, and I am not pro-war, but I do understand, what has proven successful, and what has been proven useless.
----------------------------------------
Here's a situation. (once again, completely irrellivant to the current war). I am going to be very simple, very clear, and very blunt. All you have to do, is provide a legit solution.
You run a country. You are completely against war, and solely believe in negotation. However, you come to learn, a man has secretly developed an army of over 700,000 soldiers across seas. You, nor any other leader, have realized this until now. He has conquered several countries and killed millions already, and plans to conquer your country, in a week. Provide your solution, on how you are going to prevent this man, from destroying your empire, and killing your people.
Just keep in mind, you fully are against war, and believe, its not the answer. All you have to do, is provide the solution. War isn't one of your options. If you can answer this, with a legit mature response, you have found the answer to world peace.
If you REALLY think, the UN, and any other political development today, prevents an event like this from occurring, you are seriously mistaken. Otherwise, spare me the bull of "oh but that wouldnt happen" or "you're not being clear" or whatever......it does not matter what country I am from, what religion I believe in, etc.etc. there are TOO MANY VARIABLES in every war.
JUST______PROVIDE______THE_____SOLUTION
thats all you have to do. |
wow, master of the obvious.
anyway. many people aren't protesting against war in general. you generalizing these anti war protesters is doing the same thing that you complain about their perceptions of all war being wrong.
i'm very against this war in iraq, because i think it is a very unjust war and is completly illogical for america when looked at very thoroughly.
I hate war and dream of a world where we would never have to fight. i don't think that will come though until people stop thinking so simply as was percieved of you by me in this post.
humankind will probably destroy itself or be destroyed by something else before this time comes around.
i think that ww2 was a just war, and that we should have taken earlier action to stop hitler and that our policies of appeasement were very naive.
the situation in ww2 is very different than iraq right now though.
i'm not saying i don't think saddam is a horrible person, i think teh first war with iraq was justified, but they made a big mistake in the end by not ending his regime. now they are trying to fix a mistake too late. the benifits don't outweigh the consequences of this war. |
|
|
| choukri |
| Mine is IRAK TV, there is nothing about war on this channel, you just watch nature, funny things and sometimes Saddam with some children eating a pie. Saddam is nature, Saddam is funny and Saddam takes care of your children. THAT'S PROPAGANDA, I should have to add CNN and FOX TV, they are not too bad when you deal with PROPAGANDA... Take care of mind guyz ;) :thepirate |
|
|
| Dmatrox |
| quote: | Originally posted by SportTrance
(everything he said) |
werd
respect
represent
:) |
|
|
| SuperFarStucker |
What exactly is the conflict here? I am not against war when it is justified, however, this war is NOT justified. It is as simple as that, supposedly, or *HOPEFULLY* we have inside intel that Saddam Hussein does indeed have weapons of mass destruction. But if he doesn't then there was absolutely no reason for this war which is going to cost *LIFES* on both sides, its easy to sit back and scream *WAR* when you are in the comfort of your own ing american home (or perhaps not american), but the truth is your not the one putting your ass on the line for your country, regardless of side. War leaves scars that are not a visible statistical measure, what about all the people that will have to live with memories of their family members being blown in half because of "collateral" damage?!? its called PTSD and yes, it affects people that weren't soldiers in the war.
Who is to say "democracy" is better for these people than a "dictatorship". thats american idealism talking no ing doubt about it. OUr "democracy" involved the destruction of almost all of Iraqs vital infrastructure, as it did 12 years ago, when we first made our bid to off Saddam's head. The truth be known, Iraq still hasn't repaired all that damage, and even with US aid after this is all said and done, its not likely that it will be reversed for a long time.
All things fair, Saddam Hussein is a piece of , yes he deserves to die, yet he has posed no more threat to international security then he did 20 years ago I am afraid. This war is at least *partially* about oil, if Bush wanted to prove his good intentions to the rest of the world he could have long ago saying that after IRAQ was 'liberated' no U.S. companies would be allowed to have drilling rights for IRAQI wells. :rolleyes:
This war accomplish's NOTHING, you are fooling yourself believing otherwise..
never before has
a country dominated the earth so
totally as the United States does today.
America is now the Schwarzenegger of
international politics: showing off
muscles, obtrusive, intimidating.
The Americans, in the absence of
limits put to them by anybody or anything,
act as if they own a kind of blank check
in their McWorld.
Der Spiegel, Germany's leading newsmagazine, 1997
A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force. |
|
|
| choukri |
Just for you to understand that war is not a game, people are dying because of WHAT ???? Saddam ?? Not only him, there is something else we don't know :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: I am afraid of thinking about money/oil :eek: :eek: :eek: |
|
|
|
|
