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Why Athiesm is false! (pg. 18)
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| MisterOpus1 |
Interesting tidbit I found about known authors around the time of Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity. Strangely, they give scarce mention of Jesus specifically:
| quote: | 20BCE
-50
Philo Judaeus spent time in Jerusalem during the times of Jesus, he wrote many books about the Jews and their religion and history - but not a word about Jesus or his followers or his teachings.
c.4-97
Apollonius of Tyana was a philosopher and mystic contemporary with Jesus (and rather similar to him) who travelled widely and was revered even by Roman Emperors- his words and teachings were recorded by his disciple Damis (our information comes from Philostratus c.220) - from what we know he apparently had no knowledge of Jesus, his teachings, or his followers.
Justus of Tiberias was a writer contemporary with Jesus, and from the same region - his works are now lost, but Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote in the 8th Century: ''He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did." [Tiberias is a town near Galilee, Tiberius is a Roman name]
0-29
Marcus Manilius wrote on astrology/astronomy in Rome.
Velleius Paterculus wrote a History in Rome .
30-39
Quintus Curtius Rufus wrote in Rome (History of Alexander)
Marcus/Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote several works on oratory and literary criticism in Rome.
40-49
Pomponius Mela wrote a Geography in Rome.
50-69
Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome.
Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome.
Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote several satires in Rome.
Petronius Arbiter wrote the Satyricon in Rome.
Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.
Geminus wrote on astronomy in Greece.
Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella wrote (about agriculture) in Spain sometime in the 1st century.
Cleomedes wrote on mathematics in Greece.
Dioscorides wrote a pharmacopoeia in mainland Greece.
60-100
Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia.
Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) was the dominant Roman Orator of the times (his works show Stoic and Cynic ideas), and wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) wrote a large Natural History in Rome.
Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome - his many speeches are lost.
Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome.
Dio of Prusa wrote in Alexandria.
Silius Italicus wrote the Punica in Naples.
Sextus Julius Frontinus wrote many technical works in Rome - 2 survive - e.g. on Aquaducts.
[During this period the Roman foundations of the Christian Church were laid - the action (and many of the actors) moved to Rome.]
80-89
Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote many satires in Rome.
90-99
Josephus (Flavianus) wrote Jewish Antiquities which nowadays contains a famous passage (the Testamonium Flavianum), which is not considered reliable evidence by most (non-Christian) scholars. Josephus could not possibly have called Jesus the Christ - it flies in the face of his beliefs and the very theme of the book. Josephus spent whole pages on minor criminals (debunking any claims to be Christ) yet supposedly wrote a tiny passage about this allegedly most signficant character and events. About a century later Origen comments that Josephus did not call Jesus the Christ - this, and other differences mean Origen's copy is not like our current copy. There are various versions of the passage, each are unlikely to have been written by Josephus - it was almost certainly inserted centuries later by Eusebius (whose copy of Josephus is the first to show this passage). Similarly, the other reference to Christ appears to be a later interpolation. Our earliest manuscript dates from c.1000CE. These passages are well discussed elsewhere, e.g. here, by Earl Doherty.
100-130
Epictetus' speeches on Stoicism (after retiring to Greece) were recorded by Arrian, he refers to the Christians (possibly authentic) in Discourses IV 7: "Through madness it is possible for a man to be so disposed towards these things and through habit, as the Galileans."
Thallus perhaps wrote about this time or somewhat earlier (his works are lost, there is no evidence he wrote in the 1st century, in fact there is some evidence he wrote around 109 BCE, and some authors refer to him for events before the Trojan War!) - 9th century George Syncellus quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion: ''Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse". There is no evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events, as there was an eclipse in 29, the subject in question. Furthermore the supposed reference to Thallus in Eusebius is likely a mis-reading.
Phlegon probably wrote during this period - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon said anything about Gospel events, if he did it is too late to prove anything about Jesus.
Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy.
Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome.
Nicomachus of Gerasa wrote on mathematics.
Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.
Hierocles wrote some Stoic works.
Favorinus, a friend of Plutarch, wrote in Gaul.
c.111-4
Pliny the Younger (Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus) wrote of a movement founded by ''Christ'' considered a God by his followers - this confirms that their were Christians who believed in a Christ by that time - but proves nothing about Jesus.
c.112-5
Cornelius Tacitus wrote a celebrated passage about Jesus roughly 80 years or so after the alleged events - but at best he is merely reporting Christian beliefs of his later times, not using earlier documents: he uses the incorrect title 'procurator' - the term used in Tacitus' time, not Pilate's; he fails to name the executed man (Roman records could not possibly have called him 'Christ '); and he accepts the recent advent of the Christians, when Rome was known to allow only ancient cults and religions. No-one refers to this passage in Tacitus for another millenium, and our earliest manuscript dates to c.1100 CE .
c.112-120
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus in Life of Claudius mentioned unrest at the instigation of 'Chrestus'. This is a common Greek name and was also a mystic name for an Initiate (meaning the Good) - this Chrestus seems to have been active in Rome, thus is unlikely to have been Jesus Christ.
c.120-150
Aelius Aristides the Greek Orator spoke and wrote on wrote a History of Rome inter alia - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine " (Orations 46.2)
Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism, a little survives.
Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy .
Arrian wrote in Athens (on Alexander inter alia)
Menelaus of Alexandria wrote on mathematics.
Ptolemy (Claudius Ptolemaeus) wrote the astronomical masterpiece the Almagest (the Greatest) in Alexandria.
Sepher Yetzirah (Book of Formation) may date from around this period (perhaps R. Akiba c.120, or later 2nd century).
c.150
Marcus Cornelius Fronto scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians, fragments are preserved in the Minucius Felix' Octavius.
c.150-180
Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations - he refers once to the Christians (possibly an interpolation) in XI, 3 "What a soul that is which is ready, if at any moment it must be separated from the body, and ready either to be extinguished or dispersed, or continue to exist; but so that this readiness comes from a man’s own judgment, not from mere obstinacy, as with the Christians, but considerately and with dignity, and in a way to persuade another without scenic show." This is not proof of Jesus.
Mara Bar-Serapion, perhaps as early as this, wrote: "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their Kingdom was abolished." This is not proof of Jesus.
Numenius of Apamea wrote philosophy. Origen claims he mentions a story about Jesus (but without mentioning his name, and Origen does not necessarily agree with his point) : “I know, moreover, that Numenius the Pythagorean--a surpassingly excellent expounder of Plato, and who held a foremost place as a teacher of the doctrines of Pythagoras--in many of his works quotes from the writings of Moses and the prophets, and applies to the passages in question a not improbable allegorical meaning, as in his work called Epops, and in those which treat of "Numbers" and of "Place." And in the third book of his dissertation on The Good, he quotes also a narrative regarding Jesus--without, however, mentioning His name--and gives it an allegorical signification, whether successfully or the reverse I may state on another occasion.“ Contra Celsus IV, 51. This is not proof of Jesus.
Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.
Apollodorus compiled a large Greek Mythology.
Appian wrote a Roman History.
Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens), a large compendium of many topics.
Cassius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works.
Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote Enchiridion, On Confusions in Poems; Solutions to Difficulties in Comedy; Solutions in Tragedy; and very many other works.
Pausanius wrote the massive Guide to Greece
Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism.
Menodotus of Nicomedia wrote on medicine.
Tiberius Claudius Herodes Atticus (Marcus Aurelius' teacher) spoke - On the Constitution.
c.170
Lucian of Samosata satirised Christians and their priests, but is too late to be proof of Jesus.
c.176-190
Galen wrote many works in Rome - some books on medicine, and some fragments which mention Christ or Christians survive : De pulsuum differentiis, iii.3 : ''One might more easily teach novelties to the followers of Moses and Christ than to the physicians and philosophers who cling fast to their schools.'' ii.4 : ''...in order that one should not at the very beginning, as if one had come into the school of Moses and Christ, hear talk of undemonstrated laws, and that where it is least appropriate.'' A passage which survives only in an Arabic quotation: ''If I had in mind people who taught their pupils in the same way as the followers of Moses and Christ teach theirs--for they order them to accept everything on faith--I should not have given you a definition.'' A passage taken from Galen's lost summary of Plato's Republic, only preserved in Arabic quotations: ''Most people are unable to follow any demonstrative argument consecutively; hence they need parables, and benefit from them...just as now we see the people called Christians drawing their faith from parables [and miracles], and yet sometimes acting in the same way [as those who philosophize]. For their contempt of death [and its sequel] is patent to us every day, and likewise their restraint in cohabitation...'' (Richard Walzer: Galen on Jews and Christians, 1949) This is not proof of Jesus.
c.178
Celsus wrote his On The True Doctrine criticising Christianity : '' Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth'' , ''It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction ''
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quenti...rlyWriters.html
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Well I guess if you don't believe in santa claus or the easter bunny you're a nihilist too :) |
yep :p |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Interesting tidbit I found about known authors around the time of Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity. Strangely, they give scarce mention of Jesus specifically: |
Look Opus, you're just wrong on this one. There are a ton of historical accounts and pictures of jesus to prove his existence. For example:
Jesus playing football
Jesus as a stick figure
And jesus on a segway to name a few
So don't mess with jesus cuz he's a pimp!
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Look Opus, you're just wrong on this one. There are a ton of historical accounts and pictures of jesus to prove his existence. For example:
Jesus playing football
Jesus as a stick figure
And jesus on a segway to name a few
So don't mess with jesus cuz he's a pimp!
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:haha: :haha: :haha: |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Jesus playing football
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"Go long, Jesus!"
"Oh , sorry kid! The ball fell through the holes in my hands again!"
I'm sorry. The devil made me do it. :( |
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| Noisician |
| jesus saves... passes to moses. shoots... he scores! |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Noisician
jesus saves... passes to moses. shoots... he scores! |
No jesus doesn't like to share the ball :)
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Look Opus, you're just wrong on this one. There are a ton of historical accounts and pictures of jesus to prove his existence. For example:
Jesus playing football
Jesus as a stick figure
And jesus on a segway to name a few
So don't mess with jesus cuz he's a pimp!
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Those are fantastic! And what's more, they just renewed my faith!
Praise be! |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
So don't mess with jesus cuz he's a pimp!
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Jesus! All those pic were hilarioius especially this one. :haha: |
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| poli |
| whats all this I hear about jesus not existing, nobody debates the existance of other figures like moses, mohammed, or buddha, also, Most of humanity seperated the timeline in two ways before and after christ, pretty big acomplishment for a "mythical" figure, also all the people who devoted their lives, and died by the hand of the romans for a false or non-existant person or religion seems a little too strange for me. There are too many unexplained things in the world to totally dismiss the existence of higher being. The brightest minds all agree that humans have a soul that lasts for an eternity, what this means I dont know. However for the athiests who bash christianity, they certainly do not like it when christians persecute them for their beliefs. I suggest that everybody believe what they want to believe in, however it is easier to believe in nothing than to believe in something. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by poli
whats all this I hear about jesus not existing, nobody debates the existance of other figures like moses, mohammed, or buddha, also, |
Unlike the ones mentioned, there is no historical record of Jesus existing.
| quote: | | Most of humanity seperated the timeline in two ways before and after christ, pretty big acomplishment for a "mythical" figure, |
Heh all of humanity thought the earth was flat. Pretty big accomplishment for a false idea.
| quote: | | also all the people who devoted their lives, and died by the hand of the romans for a false or non-existant person or religion seems a little too strange for me. |
They died because of roman opression of Iudea and Gallilea, not because of Jesus. If they hadn't lived in poverty and under oppression, Jesus's cult wouldn't have attracted many followers.
| quote: | | There are too many unexplained things in the world to totally dismiss the existence of higher being. |
There are not enough, however, to prove the same thing either. And as time passes, most of those unexplained things end up being explained.
| quote: | | The brightest minds all agree that humans have a soul that lasts for an eternity, what this means I dont know. |
If by brightest minds you mean church officials then yes. Aside from that, they allow the possibility, but they certainly don't have any proof. Besides, even the brightest minds can often be wrong because of the environment in which they existed. I'm certain that Aristotel was brighter than I am, yet he was wrong about many things which I now take as obvious.
| quote: | | However for the athiests who bash christianity, they certainly do not like it when christians persecute them for their beliefs. |
What a surprise.
| quote: | | I suggest that everybody believe what they want to believe in, however it is easier to believe in nothing than to believe in something. |
No it isn't. People are scared of death and really aren't certain of their purpose in life, and that's why it's easier for them to believe that they have a grand purpose of which they're unaware of and that once they die they will go to heaven and be happy ever after, than it is to believe they're an insignificant result of chemical reactions and that they'll crumble to dust and end their existance forever. |
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| SuperFarStucker |
| I say yay for insignificant chemical reactions? Who's with me :) |
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