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Hamas just got owned! *WARNING: PICS* (pg. 15)
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
LOL. I'll let diginut have fun with this post. But I'll reply to one comment.
I'd rather use a chopper to blow up a bad guy rather then go in with infantry and try to apprehend the bad guy and get in a street fight, which would possible cause more people to die.
If it comes to a choice between me and my buddies or the bad guys, I'd rather see the bad guys get whacked. I think I'll live with doing things the safest for my guys. |
And you would rather see innocents get killed in the process.
It amazes me that you still havent answered the question of how moral is it if this same incident happened in thorhill???
But hey.. they are palestinians... they always get killed.. its expected... and your used to it. |
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| Kytracid |
While I shed no tears for a slain leader of a known terrorist organization, i do realize that this assasination doesn't really make that much of a difference to the situation on the ground in the middle east. Fact is, the shiek is simply a figure head, and even though he's been eliminated, the number of cells that operatate independently and yet with a single minded determination will continute to wreak havoc with their terror tactics.
While i agree that both parties are responisble for embarking on a path of violence. I can not symphathize with any group like Hamas which claims to be fighting for the liberation of it's people, while at the same time brainwashing it's youth with promises of 70 virgins if they strap a bomb to their chest and detonate on a bus, or in the middle of a packed dance floor. These people are cowards, and i don't care that they are facing opposition with guns. Tbeir choice of tactics is deplorable, and quite frankly is one that will never bring them the peace they claim to be fighting for.
Isreal is not without blame in this either, it'scontinuing settlement expansion and control in the occupied land comes at a high cost. Then again, i feel for any country that is surrounded by nations that have already stated many times over, that they do not recognize their right to exist in that region.
History has proved that monumental shifts in countries policy and thinking in matters of occupation have changed through NON violent protests. Leaders like Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King are shining beacons of leaders that have spearheaded such movements. If only leaders in the middle east gave that option a chance, such bloody scenes as we have grown accustomed to seeing in the middle east would be relegated to old CNN news reels.
Jus my $0.02 ... |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ El Kay Dee
hahahhaha
good one....
looks like u obviously dont know that the hamas leader killed WAS IMPORTANT.
think twice before u try to make stupid comebacks |
Obviously you need to learn to read, or learn to comprehend english better. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
And you would rather see innocents get killed in the process.
It amazes me that you still havent answered the question of how moral is it if this same incident happened in thorhill???
But hey.. they are palestinians... they always get killed.. its expected... and your used to it. |
I answered my POV on this on the other Hamas thread in the politics forum... But I'll repeat it again.
I don't want to see innocent people get hurt any more than others, however, if it comes to a a choice between getting the terrorist and some innocent bystanders happen to get hurt by accident or the terrorist end up killing many more people later, I think I'll take whacking the terrorist now, if there is no option available that would cause no innocent to get hurt and cause no friendly force casualty.
Terrorist skulking in residential areas kinda make it hard to nab him without others getting hurt in the process.
"Needs of many must outweigh the needs of few."
-Spock |
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| DigiNut |
Good lord Cyrus, when I say put something into it you really put something into it. :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
I think "terrorism" theme is getting a little exploited in the media and by zionists lately. That is the ONLY basis to justify their OCCUPATION, SETTLEMENT GROWTH, and CHECK POINTS on palestinian land. ...if you can call it a justification that is. |
You're right - the "terrorism" theme IS getting exploited by the media, but not to describe relations between Israel and Palestine. It's been used primarily by the USA to justify their dealings with Al-Qaeda, the war on Iraq, etc. In that sense we could say that they might have skewed the term for their own purposes.
However, when we're talking about Palestine, it's not very objective to say that the term is "exploited" or "overused". I could just as easily say that terms like "occupation" and "settlement" are "exploited" to describe the Israelis, or that the term "water" is exploited to describe a colourless and odourless liquid we drink every day. Simply because a term is used a lot does not mean that it is any less true than it always was - and when Israel is living under a state of constant terrorist attacks (just as Palestine is living under a state of constant occupation), the repetitive use of the term is perfectly justified.
| quote: | | And what is a comabatant??? Is it a child throwing rocks at tanks? Women and children hiding under cover??? |
No, those would not be considered combatants because they present no imminent danger to the Men who take arms to fight for their freedom against the barrel of a tank which faces them since their birth? [/QUOTE]
What's ridiculous about this is that you're always depicting Palestinians on foot against an Israel tank, as is often the theme in a lot of Arabic political caricatures I've seen (no offense to Arabs there, but I have noticed that).
But honestly, that's not what's happening. If you have one or two Israeli soldiers and a mob of 10-15 Palestinians throwing HEAVY rocks at them, what do you do? Run away like cowards? The Israel soldiers almost always use RUBBER BULLETS to inflict the LEAST amount of harm possible, but if that same mob of Palestinians starts attacking a group of soldiers that doesn't HAVE rubber bullets, just REAL bullets, do you think the soldiers are not going to shoot? If they just stand there, they COULD be killed by those rocks. If they run away, then you have Israeli SOLDIERS letting a bunch of Palestinian "kids" (teenagers) bully them. Again I ask, what would you have them do? Find their own rocks and throw them back? What's the point?
That was the point of the article posted on combantants vs. noncombatants - to fight the whole ridiculous notion of Palestinians being "defenseless civilians" merely because the Israelis have superior firepower.
| quote: | | Why shouldnt these people defend themselves in the west bank and GAZA?? Why use the term "COMABATANT" and equate what they have as a legitimate form of defense against the worlds 5th strongest military? |
All of this might be valid if they were actually *defending* themselves against anything, but the Israelis are almost never the ones to attack first, except for a select few screwed-up, criminally-insane soldiers which you're going to find in ANY army enveloped in constant conflict.
| quote: | | These people are fighting with used guns, rocks, molotov cocktails and bombs strapped to their chests. |
Exactly. Those are weapons, and they can kill people.
| quote: | | Do you honestly think that the "comabatants" that take arms actually deserve to be placed in a position where they must defend themeselves becuase there is no other choice? What would you do?? watch these soldiers, who have made your life, and your people's lives a living hell, beat up, demolish, patronize palestinian livelihood? |
Again you are depicting the situation as the Palestinians being caught in a scenario where they must fight for their own lives, but in reality, they are the ones creating those scenarios by throwing rocks, molotov cocktails, or firing used guns at armed Israeli soldiers. What the hell do they think is going to happen?
| quote: | | How is Palestine's terrorism "state-sponsored" when they dont even HAVE A STATE/GOVERNMENT/MILITARY??? |
You don't consider what they have a state/government? Of course they don't have a military but that's never been a requirement to carry out terrorist activities. It's state-sponsored because Arafat funnels money into terrorist groups like Hamas. Last I checked, Arafat was the man in charge there, no?
| quote: | | One of the first prime ministers of Israel was the leader of a terrorist organization called Irgun. They killed HUNDREDS of palestinians and drove thousands away from their fomes in order to form a nation. MENACHIM BEGIN is his name. |
Somewhat true. When Israel was first settling in the middle east, they carried out a mass expulsion of Arabs, or at least that seems to be what's come to light in recent months. They did what they had to do; they were in the middle of a huge sea of hostile Arabs (I'll use the "walnut in a football field" analogy here) and realized in due time that there was simply no other way their state could survive. If they had not carried out the expulsion, they would have been killed.
That is the very ugly truth of the situation. Was it the moral thing to do? Almost certainly not. But it was necessary for their survival, and in the real world, self-preservation takes precedence over moral issues. That is probably by far the strongest instinct in human nature - survival.
And I know where you're going to take that but let me put a pre-emptive stop to it - Palestine is NOT fighting for survival because Israel does not wish to eliminate them. They tried the two-state solution - Palestine refused. Israel has tried compromising time and again, but there is no compromising when groups like Hamas are swaying the people, convincing them that they actually ARE in a fight for self-preservation and that they must do everything they can to kill and demoralize the enemy state.
In any event, what Israel did was not so unique in this respect. Other countries did this to the native people as well, not the least of which being our friendly neighbour the USA, who had to carry out mass expulsions of the natives in order to settle down in the land. Call it colonial if you want, but these "original" Israeli settlers had no other place to go, and if the "original" Arabs had merely let them settle peacefully without trying to kill them all, then there would have been no problem in the first place. They started a war, and Israel won, just like Palestine tried to do several times after that expulsion. And Israel actually killed comparatively less people than the USA did in its origins.
| quote: | | How can you say occupation is defense??? Should the whole race of palestinians be collectively disciplined becuase of the actions of a few suicide bombers? |
There are two sides to that coin. The first is whether they are actually doing this, and I'd have to say no, they aren't. The figures appear to indicate that for more Israeli innocents are being killed than Palestinian, which makes it impossible to say that they are being collectively punished (otherwise the ratio would be opposite). Again, the "civilian" definition skews the numbers because Israel has mandatory military service, whereas Palestine has no army at all.
| quote: | | I have no sympathy for those who advocate this brutal and imperialist injustice towards people that have already had their nationhood taken away from them. |
I would call it "survivalist" moreso than "imperialist."
Besides - Palestine didn't exist as a nation before Israel was around. There is no "nationhood" to speak of. These people were a part of Jordan and a few other Arab countries, who would never, EVER have given them their own state. Israel actually offered them this, but they refused - why? Because groups like Hamas, who influence the people and the politics, believe that there can be no compromising and that the only path to take is to rid the land of Israel completely.
| quote: | | So its okay to irresponisibly strike a few people amongst a crowd knowing full well that collateral damage will and has been documented to kill more than the expected? There have been a number of times when these explosions dont even kill the intended targets, yet more civilians die as a result of them being at the "wrong place at the wrong time".... i guess that saying could be applied to the whole Gaza and West bank regions. |
Let's not exaggerate the number of people that actually get killed as collateral damage. That number is selectively lower than the number of those who consciously mount attacks on soldiers. If you went out onto the streets of Toronto and started firing a loaded gun at a police patrol car, do you think they wouldn't fire back at you? And yes, there is always the possibility that someone might get caught in the crossfire, especially if the person firing the loaded gun decides to do it in an extremely crowded area!
| quote: | | it is okay to shoot a missile into downtown toronto if the RCMP knew terrorists were going to plan an attack. Thats really efficient! |
If it was a precision attack that destroyed no property, killed no bystanders, and did no collateral damage whatsoever? I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's demoralizing, maybe, but not dangerous, and I think the people are demoralized enough with people like Yassin brainwashing them and claiming to give them "hope."
| quote: | | The fact that the IDF would COWARDLY go shoot missiles into shooping markets just reveals how much respect they have for human life. |
Cowardly? How so?
As for respecting human life, they killed him and his two bodyguards, no one else. Most likely, they would have had to do that anyway regardless of how they conducted that operation. So what are you saying, that they should have risked the lives of one or more of their soldiers, and risked failing the entire operation (which had been tried and failed before already), just to "level the playing field?" Instead of not risking any Israeli lives and carrying out a precision attack that killed no one other than whom it was intended to kill?
| quote: | | Those soldiers shouldnt be there in the first place! Those "nutty" IDf soldiers are not "some" but many. There have been documented cases of journalists with Flourescent media jackets being shot deliberately while they wave peace flags. These 18 year old IDf soldiers have just as much hate as those palestinians do,, but they have tanks and weapons to use to unleash that frustration with. |
No, it is NOT "many", it is SOME. There will always be nutcases. When you have a huge military it's a little difficult to keep track of what every single soldier does. However, the Israeli government does not publicly advocate to its military the killing of innocent bystanders.
The mere existence of documented cases of violence on the Israeli side does not characterize Israel as a whole. Again, the numbers just do not add up.
| quote: | | How is it that these well trained IDF soliders cant tell the difference between children, woman and journalists along side the freedom fighters with guns. |
"Freedom fighters", hah, bull. Anyway, two answers to that:
1) They can tell the difference, and you're confusing the nutjobs who shoot journalists with ordinary soldiers who do what they're supposed to.
2) Since I'm not familiar with the cases you're referring to, it may just as well be possible that these journalists were "joined later" by more groups of rock throwers or molotov throwers or used-gun-shooters and they just got caught in crossfire, like so many other people have.
| quote: | | Many children have been killed as a result of the cold hearted trigger happy tendancies of these soldiers. Its been documented in the pol forums many times. |
It's been documented a few times, with a few soldiers. I'm not going to deny that war crimes have been committed, but this isn't the "status quo" when you look at the big picture. Many children (Palestinian children!) have also been killed by Palestinians themselves in internal conflicts or collateral damage from suicide bombers. So what's your point? You call a couple of soldiers cold hearted, but not hundreds of suicide bombers?
| quote: | | I consider those fighting the soldiers as CIVILIANS TAKING ARMS to defend themselves from the military machine oppressing their daily lives. |
You can "consider" whatever you want, but in order to be reasonably considered as DEFENDING yourself, someone has to be ATTACKING you. When those Palestinians are the ones that OPEN FIRE, they aren't really "defending" anything.
| quote: | | You seem to be defending the occupier and attacking the occupied. |
Gee I wonder why... maybe because the occupied is launching constant attacks and the occupier is trying to keep them at bay? Isn't that the whole point of military occupation?
| quote: | | These palestinians have it FAR worse than those israeli's who like to swim in their pools and have BBQ's. |
Don't see how their economy is relevant here. That tells us nothing about their mentality or what they do. And if you pushed me into a corner, I'd have to say that the most greedy, immoral, violent states are almost always the poor ones.
| quote: | | This assasination will cause more death.. The palestinian hatred has been exponentially fueled. |
Proof?
| quote: | | They want DEATH now...they dont care for anything else but to kill those who support the government that has made them the angry people they are today. |
They were always angry. They always wanted death. They never had any respect for human life. This is not a change.
| quote: | | This will further cause more death on the palestinian side as a result of further incursions when pals take their revenge on Israeli civilians/military targets. |
So you can predict the future eh? I wonder, does Palestine really want to turn this into an all-out war? Not a great move strategically...
| quote: | | The IMPLICATIONS of this act are more important than what actually happened. |
:conf:
| quote: | | And in actuality, innocents were killed in the assasination. But Yissin's stature vieled their deaths as he was more newsworthy. |
Again, proof?
| quote: | | remember... Yissin was the spiritual leader of Hamas... not the actual brains behind the network. Killing Rantisi would have been far more effective at reducing Hamas sponsored attacks. |
The spiritual leader... you mean like... the one that rallied all those kids to go in and blow things up? Yeah, that's what I thought.
| quote: | | No it wasnt good enough. He was more of a father like figure to the populace than an actual planner of attacks. The guy was in a ing wheel chair.. hardly able to talk or see and they killed a what they call a "strategic target" |
He was a terrorist leader. Terrorists in wheelchairs are still terrorists.
| quote: | | Israel should have gone in and arrested Rantisi than cause an uproar of hate and vengence. |
Oh well. Maybe they will soon. I'm sure he'll just be standing there waiting to be arrested, right?
| quote: | | The UN that existed in 48 is a much different organization than it is today. You cant compare the decisions made then to now. |
Oh I see. So the UN was "bad" then and "good" now. Explain your reasoning?
| quote: | | the actions of israel are oppressive, thats a fact. Zionists cannot deal with this so they constantly utilize the same repetive notion of israel being the victim of terrorist crimes. They justify collective punishment ad occupation.. whichis sickening. |
Of course Zionists can deal with that. The actions of Israel ARE oppressive. They have to be! Palestine is acting like a spoiled little bratty kid swatting at Israel every chance it gets. The only effective method to deal with this kind of thing is to slap them around.
| quote: | | Israel essentially blocks itself peace peace negotiations. They proclaim the condemnation of terrorism, label anything palesitnian or arab as being terrorist, and thus remove the chance of discusing steps to end this . They put themselves in a situation that removes the chance for dialogue. |
LOL, don't even get me started on that one. Everyone knows what happened with Camp David. Everyone knows that Arafat rejected the proposal without a counter offer. Why? Because it would have meant an end to their "phased process" of gradually taking more and more land from the Israelis until they were strong enough in a military sense to mount a real war and eliminate Israel.
| quote: | | They have the power to do more about the situtation than the palestinians do. Instead they place hegemony ontop of their to do list, and number one task is maintaining the occupation so that palestinians cant have their own nation or share israel. |
Sorry, but that's just crap. Israel has the power to end the conflict, that's true - by carrying out another mass expulsion. But they can't do that, not now, not considering the current international political situation. But who knows, maybe if Palestine escalates its attacks again to a level where Israel genuinely fears for its survival, that just might happen?
| quote: | | Bashing America is legitimate in this issue becuase they provide the support (militarily and politically) for Israel to continue this humanitarian injustice. They are the ones that donate the tanks which demolish palestinian homes... they are the ones that proved helicopter gunships which shoot misiles into neighborhoods, they are the ones that condemn the terrorist actions of palestinians, but turn their face when massacres like Jenin occur. |
Stop with Jenin already! You tried it in the PF and it didn't work so you're trying it here now? That just didn't happen as you'd like us to believe it did.
The USA providing support (what little support they actually do provide) is only a "humanitarian injustice" because you believe that Palestine is "fighting for freedom." When you actually look at it rationally though, that's from the case.
| quote: | | The list goes on. Israel is essentially an American military outpost in the middle east. |
That's quite a stretch, don't you think? Israel represents the one and only democracy in the middle east, this is true, and as such they have very strong ties with America. But if you're calling Israel America's puppet or something... well that's just crazy. I am sure that Israel can and does operate independently of the USA's wants and needs. The two nations share values and are in a sense allies - that is the extent of their relationship.
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by EvilTree
I answered my POV on this on the other Hamas thread in the politics forum... But I'll repeat it again.
I don't want to see innocent people get hurt any more than others, however, if it comes to a a choice between getting the terrorist and some innocent bystanders happen to get hurt by accident or the terrorist end up killing many more people later, I think I'll take whacking the terrorist now, if there is no option available that would cause no innocent to get hurt and cause no friendly force casualty.
Terrorist skulking in residential areas kinda make it hard to nab him without others getting hurt in the process.
"Needs of many must outweigh the needs of few."
-Spock |
What you fail to understand is the pattern that has resulted in this form of assasination. Those innocents are just numbers to you arent they.
Everytime israel does this, palestinians vow revenge.
KNowing that these terrorists will have more reason to seek vengence and kill innocent israeli's, why would ISrael take this form of action?
This assasination has made more extremists and terrorists that want to see blood spilled. In the long run.. MORE DEATH will come of this. |
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| EvilTree |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
What you fail to understand is the pattern that has resulted in this form of assasination. Those innocents are just numbers to you arent they. |
No they are not.
However, if it comes to a choice between few of them getting hurt by accident in order to ensure that people I care for don't get hurt by the terrorist, guess who's going to get hurt?
| quote: |
Everytime israel does this, palestinians vow revenge.
KNowing that these terrorists will have more reason to seek vengence and kill innocent israeli's, why would ISrael take this form of action? |
As if the terrorists needed more excuses in order to carry out their suicide bombings?
| quote: |
This assasination has made more extremists and terrorists that want to see blood spilled. In the long run.. MORE DEATH will come of this. |
Well, yeah. Until a solution to this problem is reached which hopefully is Israelis taking out all the terrorists.
Since the terrorists don't seem to be very inclined to talk to reach a solution, what choice Israelis have, in order to protect themselves? |
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| The Highroller |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
blah blah blah |
Unsubscribes from thread.... now.
I can't be arsed to read through replies like that!! :eek: |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Good lord Cyrus, when I say put something into it you really put something into it. :p |
Watch this.
| quote: |
You're right - the "terrorism" theme IS getting exploited by the media, but not to describe relations between Israel and Palestine. It's been used primarily by the USA to justify their dealings with Al-Qaeda, the war on Iraq, etc. In that sense we could say that they might have skewed the term for their own purposes. |
Much of the zionist rhetoric spewed out regarding the issue now is basically terrorism/suicide bombing/terrorist groups. Israel utilized the "war on terror" objective instated by the US government after 9/11 and exploited it with every effort they had. It gave Israel more of an excuse to unleash their weapons and tanks into the west bank and gaza to "rid terrorists". Many many people died as a result of the extensive efforts of the state terrorists to remove their own kind from the palestinian territories.
Terrorism is constantly the headline of Israels agenda, not dismantling its root cause.
| quote: |
However, when we're talking about Palestine, it's not very objective to say that the term is "exploited" or "overused". I could just as easily say that terms like "occupation" and "settlement" are "exploited" to describe the Israelis, or that the term "water" is exploited to describe a colourless and odourless liquid we drink every day. Simply because a term is used a lot does not mean that it is any less true than it always was - and when Israel is living under a state of constant terrorist attacks (just as Palestine is living under a state of constant occupation), the repetitive use of the term is perfectly justified. |
That is true. But the frequency and the justification of the use of these specific words dont add up on the israeli side.
Palestinians see this occupation everyday of their lives.. they see settlement expansion weekly, uprooting olive orchards almost every week, humiliation, demolishons, strikes, incursions ETC...
They face multiple negative effects from the occupation than the Israeli's do with terrorism.
You cannot compare the suffering of the isreali's to the palestinians. The latter has it far worse.
No, those would not be considered combatants because they present no imminent danger to the Men who take arms to fight for their freedom against the barrel of a tank which faces them since their birth?
| quote: |
What's ridiculous about this is that you're always depicting Palestinians on foot against an Israel tank, as is often the theme in a lot of Arabic political caricatures I've seen (no offense to Arabs there, but I have noticed that). |
They are on foot every single day infront of these tanks. everysingle day someone is shot or killed in these types of clashes (these include children too) like todays occurance.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3574059.stm
Occupation is a daily punch in the face.
| quote: |
But honestly, that's not what's happening. If you have one or two Israeli soldiers and a mob of 10-15 Palestinians throwing HEAVY rocks at them, what do you do? Run away like cowards? The Israel soldiers almost always use RUBBER BULLETS to inflict the LEAST amount of harm possible, but if that same mob of Palestinians starts attacking a group of soldiers that doesn't HAVE rubber bullets, just REAL bullets, do you think the soldiers are not going to shoot? If they just stand there, they COULD be killed by those rocks. If they run away, then you have Israeli SOLDIERS letting a bunch of Palestinian "kids" (teenagers) bully them. Again I ask, what would you have them do? Find their own rocks and throw them back? What's the point? |
I laughed hard when i read this. Thanks for the chuckle.
On a serious note, i must again reiterate that these Soldiers shouldnt be there in the first place to be placed in that position where people are throwing rocks at them.
Second, many of these Israeli soldiers are in their protective tanks and can stay inside there. When they are not, they are quiped with protective gear against rocks that are thrown at them. Much of these clashes take place within city areas, these soldiers with their armour also have many many walls to hide behind.
And with respect to those rubber bullets that inflict the least amount of harm possible...what is least possible harm? Brain damage? Torn limbs? Internal bleeding? Death?
here are examples of what rubber bullets have done:
Heres an article describing the dangers of such a bulllet.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0524-04.htm
These soldiers have no right to shoot anyone, let alone people who are trying to defend themselves with rocks that could "kill the sioldiers" Boo hoo.. a rock hits a soldier with a helmut.
Do you really have sympathy for these soldiers?
Take a look at this small documentary depicting the experiences of internatinal, palestinian and even Israeli victims of IDF aggression and irresponisibility. Im sure you will love the part on rubber bullets.
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/s...rael.palestine/
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That was the point of the article posted on combantants vs. noncombatants - to fight the whole ridiculous notion of Palestinians being "defenseless civilians" merely because the Israelis have superior firepower. |
If palestinians had helicopter gunships, tanks, drones, fighter jets, bazookas, A military to be specific, then the storywould be different.
What are these men who come from work (if they have a job to begin with) and are given a used gun to fight the military that is about to demoralize them as a people? What are those teenagers that fight with molotov coctails? Do you think they have the superiority in defense and offense that the IDF does??? HAHAHA.. its pretty sad that you equate the pathetic measures these palestinians take with the drastic affects of the IDF.
These civilians are defenseless to you until they use rocks?:rolleyes:
| quote: |
All of this might be valid if they were actually *defending* themselves against anything, but the Israelis are almost never the ones to attack first, except for a select few screwed-up, criminally-insane soldiers which you're going to find in ANY army enveloped in constant conflict. |
So you see no direct corelation to the amount of palestinians killed (which is 4.5 times greater than the Israeli victims of terror) to that of the actions of the IDF? Do you honestly beleive that this great difference in death ratio is because the pals end up somehow self-inflicting their deaths? Or is it that these IDF soldiers' "few" screw-ups result in this disproportionate ratio figure?
Its sad that people seem to forget the ratio of death between the two sides, yet continue to explain the justification for these pal deaths by adding labels like "militant" or "combatant" after their deaths. Its as if they will try to find anything possible to rationalize these preventable deaths.
"they had a rock and that could have killed a soldier.. so the soldier had to shoot him in the head"
Israel has also admitted that their actions do result in "collateral damage" and that these casualties were not targetted. Its hard to beleive that most of these deaths were the result of pals 'being in the way'.
Give me a kit kat please.
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Exactly. Those are weapons, and they can kill people.
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You fail to get my point. Look at exactly the methods in which they have to defend themselves.
They are desperate... and will use anything,,, even their own lives to defend themselves.
| quote: |
Again you are depicting the situation as the Palestinians being caught in a scenario where they must fight for their own lives, but in reality, they are the ones creating those scenarios by throwing rocks, molotov cocktails, or firing used guns at armed Israeli soldiers. What the hell do they think is going to happen? |
You got it the other way around. If those soldiers werent there in the first place, these coctails, and rocks wouldnt be thrown.
Why are you defending the occupational and oppressive tactics these IDF soldiers conduct? You seem to advocate their presence in the West BAnk and Gaza.
I hope the palestinians continue to fight this military machine until they leave their land once and for all. They are fighting what they have left...since Israel stole everything else from them.
They wont let their livlihoods be fully taken.
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You don't consider what they have a state/government? Of course they don't have a military but that's never been a requirement to carry out terrorist activities. It's state-sponsored because Arafat funnels money into terrorist groups like Hamas. Last I checked, Arafat was the man in charge there, no? |
Wheres the proof of this? Where are the documents? Much zionist rhetoric revolves around this notion. That Arafat funds these groups.
If you think Arafat was the leader of Hamas, i wonder what other fallacies you problaim in the name of knowledge regarding this issue.
Arafat has numerous times condemned the actions of Hamas. They have a great deal of unnofficial power amongst the palestinians. One of Arafats main obstacles IS Hamas and its containment.
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On December 16, 2001, in a speech on the occasion of Id al-Fitr in Ramallah (Gaza Palestine Satellite Channel Television, in Arabic, on 16 December 2001 at 16:00 GMT) Arafat stated in Arabic:
"Today, I emphasize once again the complete and immediate halt to all armed operations. Once again, I call for a complete halt to all operations, especially suicidal operations, which we have always condemned. We will punish all those who carry out and mastermind such operations. This also applies to the firing of mortar shells, which have no objective but to provide an excuse for the Israeli attacks on us, our people, our children, and our women. Any violation of this decision will be considered an attempt to harm the higher national interests of our people and of our Arab nation." |
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Somewhat true. When Israel was first settling in the middle east, they carried out a mass expulsion of Arabs, or at least that seems to be what's come to light in recent months. They did what they had to do; they were in the middle of a huge sea of hostile Arabs (I'll use the "walnut in a football field" analogy here) and realized in due time that there was simply no other way their state could survive. If they had not carried out the expulsion, they would have been killed. |
Arabs and Jews and chirstians were living in that region for centuries in peace. However, when the notion of creating an ONLY jewish state ontop of land that was inhabited mostly by arabs (seeing that they were and are still the indiginous population) came to fuition, tensions started to flare,zionist mentality began to infest the many minds. This notion essentially serperated people from their land, and it was a scary thought.
"THEY DID WHAT THEY HAD TO DO"!! Are you serious? They did what they had to do to expell people from their homes, but you make it sound like this was their only choice. If the zionists decided that they should SHARE the already inhabited land as an arab nation as opposed to one that should POP UP out of no where... then maybe something could have worked out seeing that they already lived in peace for centuries prior to notions of mass expulsion.
Do you not see a problem with the nature in which this state was formed? It was on the BASIS of expulsion and murder and theft, becuase a Jewish majority was the "ONLY" choice.
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That is the very ugly truth of the situation. Was it the moral thing to do? Almost certainly not. But it was necessary for their survival, and in the real world, self-preservation takes precedence over moral issues. That is probably by far the strongest instinct in human nature - survival. |
It is ugly, but it could have been prevented. They brought this hatred upon themselves. They chose to throw people out of their homes... hundreds of thoudands of people, in order to make a country in out of the blue for people that arent even ideginous to the land, but have a common RELIGION!!!!!!!. They could have survived much better if this displacement of a race of people didnt occur under the selfish rule of the zionist crusaders.
And speaking of self preservation...that is what the palestinians are doing and have been doing since 48 when their homes were stolen.
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And I know where you're going to take that but let me put a pre-emptive stop to it - Palestine is NOT fighting for survival because Israel does not wish to eliminate them. They tried the two-state solution - Palestine refused. Israel has tried compromising time and again, but there is no compromising when groups like Hamas are swaying the people, convincing them that they actually ARE in a fight for self-preservation and that they must do everything they can to kill and demoralize the enemy state. |
HAHAHHA.. israel is making the lives of these palestinians as hard as possible so that slow voluntary transfer can occur. Thats why palestinians are occupied in ghettos and isolated pockets so that Israel can do this much easier than if they existed in say Tel Aviv.
Its pretty annoying that Israel is always the one who is "offering" peace, and the western media tends to ignore the number of times that Arafats peace offers were rejected.
Lets take Baraks "Generous offer" for example.
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Barak's "generous" offer
What Barak offered at Camp David was a formula for continued Israeli military occupation under the name of a "state."
The proposal would have meant:
no territorial contiguity for the Palestinian state,
no control of its external borders,
limited control of its own water resources, and
no full Israeli withdrawal from occupied territory as required by international law.
In addition, the Barak plan would have :
included continued Israeli military control over large segments of the West Bank, including almost all of the Jordan Valley;
codified the right of Israeli forces to be deployed in the Palestinian state at short notice;
meant the continued presence of fortified Israeli settlements and Jewish-only roads in the heart of the Palestinian state; and
required nearly 4 million Palestinian refugees to relinquish their fundamental human rights in exchange for compensation to be paid not by Israel but by the "international community." |
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In any event, what Israel did was not so unique in this respect. Other countries did this to the native people as well, not the least of which being our friendly neighbour the USA, who had to carry out mass expulsions of the natives in order to settle down in the land. Call it colonial if you want, but these "original" Israeli settlers had no other place to go, and if the "original" Arabs had merely let them settle peacefully without trying to kill them all, then there would have been no problem in the first place. They started a war, and Israel won, just like Palestine tried to do several times after that expulsion. And Israel actually killed comparatively less people than the USA did in its origins. |
Again, I cannot repeat myself clearer than this. Everyone in that region was living in peace for centuries until the notions of Zionism started to germnate and actually effect that region. The arabs started to feel threatened, and rightly so. There were plans to rid them of their land and make a place for people that came from eastern Europe.
Zionism quintessentially seperated peaceful neighbors into fueding groups that thought the land was SOLELY theirs.
What i dont understand is how russian, Polish, Lithuanian, Czech people thought that this Arab region was solely theirs.
The Zionists started the war in 48, becuase they wanted to start up a country for themselves. Hey, I want to make a persian nation where Israel is now... after all, the empire once streched that far.
And with respect to the conquerers of America and their expulsion of the Natives, well that happened about 300 years ago. But today, the natives arent occupied as a race and humiliated everyday of their lives.
If a native came back to you home and asked you to leave because his great great grandfatehrs teepee was where you live, would you leave?
I dont think so. However, the Zionists did this. THey came in and claimed that this was their Biblical land...their promised land.
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There are two sides to that coin. The first is whether they are actually doing this, and I'd have to say no, they aren't. The figures appear to indicate that for more Israeli innocents are being killed than Palestinian, which makes it impossible to say that they are being collectively punished (otherwise the ratio would be opposite). Again, the "civilian" definition skews the numbers because Israel has mandatory military service, whereas Palestine has no army at all. |
Israeli innocents do not outweigh the Palesitnian innocents. the death rate for children alone almost matches the rate of Israeli death.
Explain to me how the palestinians in the West bank and Gaza are not being punished collectively??? Are some pals treated better than others? I think not. There is no evidence of this, espescially when it comes to the people in need of medical help as well. But that is a whole other argument.
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I would call it "survivalist" moreso than "imperialist." |
Occupation is a way to survive your nation? Confiscating land, and building jewish settlements is "survivalist"? :conf:
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Besides - Palestine didn't exist as a nation before Israel was around. There is no "nationhood" to speak of. These people were a part of Jordan and a few other Arab countries, who would never, EVER have given them their own state. Israel actually offered them this, but they refused - why? Because groups like Hamas, who influence the people and the politics, believe that there can be no compromising and that the only path to take is to rid the land of Israel completely. |
Iran didnt exist as a nation before it was drawn by the british, did that mean anyone could go in and make a nation ontop of that and expell the persians?
Just because there was no recognized nation, doesnt mean that people with homes, culture, history and ancestry shouldbe displaced if someone wanted to make a nation.
Palestine existed as a region long before Israel was formed. For hundreds of years. Palestinians were a Part of Jordan and other nations? That was a pretty ignorant comment. So I guess the pals should just go to other arab nations surrounding Israel.. seeing that they are alot. Well guess what... they are PALESTINIAN.. not Jordanian, not lebanese, not Yemenite...Palestinian. That is where they are from.
Heres a brief timeline of the historical Palestine.
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3'RD MILLENNIUM BC
3'rd millennium BC : The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of Palestine. They became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho . They developed an alphabet. Palestine's location at the center of routes linking three continents made it the meeting place for religious and cultural influences from Egypt, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Asia Minor. It was also the natural battleground for the great powers of the region and subject to domination by adjacent empires, beginning with Egypt in the 3d millennium BC.
2'ND MILLENNIUM BC
2'rd millennium BC : Egyptian hegemony and Canaanite autonomy were constantly challenged by such ethnically diverse invaders as the Amorites, Hittites, and Hurrians. These invaders, however, were defeated by the Egyptians and absorbed by the Canaanites, who at that time may have numbered about 200000.
14th century BC : Egyptian power began to weaken, new invaders appeared: the Hebrews, a group of Semitic tribes from Mesopotamia, and the Philistines (after whom the country was later named), an Aegean people of Indo-European stock.
1230 BC : Joshua conquered parts of Palestine. The conquerors settled in the hill country, but they were unable to conquer all of Palestine.
1125 BC : The Israelites, a confederation of Hebrew tribes, finally defeated the Canaanites but found the struggle with the Philistines more difficult . Philistines had established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled the Canaanite town of Jerusalem.
1050 BC : Philistines with there superior in military organization and using iron weapons, they severely defeated the Israelites about 1050 BC .
1'ST MILLENNIUM BC
1000 BC : David, Israel's great king, finally defeated the Philistines, and they eventually assimilated with the Canaanites . The unity of Israel and the feebleness of adjacent empires enabled David to establish a large independent state, with its capital at Jerusalem.
922 BC : Under David's son and successor, Solomon, Israel enjoyed peace and prosperity , but at his death in 922 BC the kingdom was divided into Israel in the north and Judah in the south .
722-721 BC : When nearby empires resumed their expansion, the divided Israelites could no longer maintain their independence . Israel fell to Assyria.
586 BC : Judah was conquered by Babylonia, which destroyed Jerusalem and exiled most of the Jews living there. Nebuchadnezzar entered Jerusalem. The Temple was sacked and set fire to, and razed to the ground. The Royal Palace and all the great houses were destroyed, the population carried off in chains to Babylon. And they lamented on their long march into exile.
539 BC : Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylonia and he permitted the Jews to return to Judea, a district of Palestine. Under Persian rule the Jews were allowed considerable autonomy. They rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem and codified the Mosaic law, the Torah, which became the code of social life and religious observance. The Jews were bound to a universal God.
333 BC : Persian domination of Palestine was replaced by Greek rule when Alexander the Great of Macedonia took the region. Alexander's successors, the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria , continued to rule the country . The Seleucids tried to impose Hellenistic (Greek) culture and religion on the population.
141-63 BC : Jews revolted under the Maccabees and set up an independent state.
132-35 BC : Jews revolts erupted, numerous Jews were killed, many were sold into slavery, and the rest were not allowed to visit Jerusalem. Judea was renamed Syria Palaistina.
63 BC : Jerusalem was overrun by Rome. Herod was appointed King of Judea. He slaughtered the last of the Hasmoneans and ordered a lavish restoration and extension of the Second Temple. A period of great civil disorder followed with strife between pacifists and Zealots, and riots against the Roman authorities.
37-4 BC : During the rule of King Herod the Great Jesus of Nazareth, peace be upon him was born. And years after, he began his teaching mission. His attempts to call people back to the pure teachings of Abraham and Moses were judged subversive by the authorities. He was tried and sentenced to death; "yet they did not slay him but only a likeness that was shown to them."
1-999 AD
70 AD : Titus of Rome laid siege to Jerusalem. The fiercely defended Temple eventually fell, and with it the whole city. Seeking a complete and enduring victory, Titus ordered the total destruction of the Herodian Temple. A new city named Aelia was built by the Romans on the ruins of Jerusalem, and a temple dedicated to Jupitor raised up.
313 AD : Palestine received special attention when the Roman emperor Constantine I legalized Christianity. His mother, Helena, visited Jerusalem, and Palestine, as the Holy Land, became a focus of Christian pilgrimage. A golden age of prosperity, security, and culture followed. Most of the population became Hellenized and Christianized .
324 AD : Constantine of Byzantium marched on Aelia. He rebuilt the city walls and commissioned the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and opened the city for Christian pilgrimage.
29-614 AD : Byzantine (Roman) rule was interrupted , however , by a brief Persian occupation and ended altogether when Muslim Arab armies invaded Palestine and captured Jerusalem in AD 638 .
638 AD : The Arab conquest began 1300 years of Muslim presence in what then became known as Filastin. Eager to be rid of their Byzantine overlords and aware of their shared heritage with the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, as well as the Muslims reputation for mercy and compassion in victory, the people of Jerusalem handed over the city after a brief siege. They made only one condition, That the terms of their surrender be negotiated directly with the Khalif 'Umar in person. 'Umar entered Jerusalem on foot. There was no bloodshed. There were no massacres. Those who wanted to leave were allowed to, with all their goods. Those who wanted to stay were guarantee protection for their lives, their property and places of worship.
Palestine was holy to Muslims because the Prophet Muhammad had designated Jerusalem as the first qibla (the direction Muslims face when praying) and because he was believed to have ascended on a night journey to heaven from the the old city of Jerusalem (al-Aqsa Mosque today) , where the Dome of the Rock was later built. Jerusalem became the third holiest city of Islam. The Muslim rulers did not force their religion on the Palestinians, and more than a century passed before the majority converted to Islam. The remaining Christians and Jews were considered People of the Book. They were allowed autonomous control in their communities and guaranteed security and freedom of worship. Such tolerance was rare in the history of religion . Most Palestinians also adopted Arabic and Islamic culture. Palestine benefited from the empires trade and from its religious significance during the first Muslim dynasty, the Umayyads of Damascus.
750 AD : The power shifted to Baghdad with the Abbasids, Palestine became neglected. It suffered unrest and successive domination by Seljuks, Fatimids, and European Crusaders. It shared, however, in the glory of Muslim civilization, when the Muslim world enjoyed a golden age of science, art, philosophy, and literature. Muslims preserved Greek learning and broke new ground in several fields, all of which later contributed to the Renaissance in Europe. Like the rest of the empire, however, Palestine under the Mamelukes gradually stagnated and declined.
1000-1899 AD
1517 AD : The Ottoman Turks of Asia Minor defeated the Mamelukes, with few interruptions, ruled Palestine until the winter of 1917-18. The country was divided into several districts (sanjaks), such as that of Jerusalem. The administration of the districts was placed largely in the hands of Arab Palestinians, who were descendants of the Canaanites. The Christian and Jewish communities, however, were allowed a large measure of autonomy. Palestine shared in the glory of the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century, but declined again when the empire began to decline in the 17th century.
1831-1840 AD : Muhammad Ali, the modernizing viceroy of Egypt, expanded his rule to Palestine . His policies modified the feudal order, increased agriculture, and improved education.
1840 The Ottoman Empire reasserted its authority, instituting its own reforms .
1845 Jewish in Palestine were 12,000 increased to 85,000 by 1914. All people in Palestine were Arabic Muslims and Christians.
1897 the first Zionist Congress held Basle, Switzerland, issued the Basle programme on the colonization of Palestine. |
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Let's not exaggerate the number of people that actually get killed as collateral damage. That number is selectively lower than the number of those who consciously mount attacks on soldiers. If you went out onto the streets of Toronto and started firing a loaded gun at a police patrol car, do you think they wouldn't fire back at you? And yes, there is always the possibility that someone might get caught in the crossfire, especially if the person firing the loaded gun decides to do it in an extremely crowded area! |
Lets not exaggerate???
86 People have died this month alone due to the IDF's irresponsibility.
Now lets say that there were many people that started to randomly shoot at police cars... wouldnt you think there is something wrong with the relationship between the cops and these individuals, maybe how they treat these people??? Its pretty crazy to think that these people just like to RANDOMLY shoot police cars.
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If it was a precision attack that destroyed no property, killed no bystanders, and did no collateral damage whatsoever? I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's demoralizing, maybe, but not dangerous, and I think the people are demoralized enough with people like Yassin brainwashing them and claiming to give them "hope." |
But that hardly happens when they are precision guided. Almost every time innocent bystanders are killed. Israel publicly states thats unfortunate but they still CONTINUE doing it. They know people will die.
And what i was getting at in my post is that Israeli sympathizers always tend to disgree with this notion that missiles being struck in Crowded city streets of their own is imoral, but its okay in Palestinian territories.
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Cowardly? How so?
As for respecting human life, they killed him and his two bodyguards, no one else. Most likely, they would have had to do that anyway regardless of how they conducted that operation. So what are you saying, that they should have risked the lives of one or more of their soldiers, and risked failing the entire operation (which had been tried and failed before already), just to "level the playing field?" Instead of not risking any Israeli lives and carrying out a precision attack that killed no one other than whom it was intended to kill? |
They killed "no one else"? :rolleyes:
| quote: | | Israeli helicopters fired three missile as Yassin, his bodyguards and dozens of others left a mosque in Gaza City at daybreak Monday. Yassin, a quadriplegic who uses a wheelchair, and seven others were killed, including several bodyguards. Seventeen people were wounded. |
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._palestinians_2
How precise.
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No, it is NOT "many", it is SOME. There will always be nutcases. When you have a huge military it's a little difficult to keep track of what every single soldier does. However, the Israeli government does not publicly advocate to its military the killing of innocent bystanders. |
Soyou think that all these deaths on the palestinian side are "accidents"??? HHAHAHHA... That only SOME of these soldiers happen to kill ALL of these people by accident or that they were in the line of fire? You think the death of nearly 3000 people has been the result of the actions of "SOME" soldiers? I guess the majority of them are neutral and dont unleash their anger!
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The mere existence of documented cases of violence on the Israeli side does not characterize Israel as a whole. Again, the numbers just do not add up. |
But it does reveal the immoral actions of the IDF. Occupation does characterize ISrael as a whole, settlements do to... incursions.... there are again,, a multitude of things that can be said about Israels mistreatment of Pals.. but Israel only has one thing... "terrorism" to blame.
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"Freedom fighters", hah, bull. Anyway, two answers to that:
1) They can tell the difference, and you're confusing the nutjobs who shoot journalists with ordinary soldiers who do what they're supposed to.
2) Since I'm not familiar with the cases you're referring to, it may just as well be possible that these journalists were "joined later" by more groups of rock throwers or molotov throwers or used-gun-shooters and they just got caught in crossfire, like so many other people have. |
Why arent they freedom fighters???? They are figthing for their FREEDOM?:rolleyes:
How can they tel the difference when kids have been killed?? Shot in the head actually.
How can they tell the difference when old men with canes have been crsuhed under tanks.
Its funny how you like to label the IDF soldiers that commit these crimes as Nutjobs but fail to acknowledge that there are a great many of them doing the same thing.
With respect to journalists, go and watch that docuemtary i posted.
Knowing you, you will over analyze each situation and give 564649 reasons why those journalists were at fault.
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It's been documented a few times, with a few soldiers. I'm not going to deny that war crimes have been committed, but this isn't the "status quo" when you look at the big picture. Many children (Palestinian children!) have also been killed by Palestinians themselves in internal conflicts or collateral damage from suicide bombers. So what's your point? You call a couple of soldiers cold hearted, but not hundreds of suicide bombers? |
Youve only come to the political forums fairly recently compared to the others. There were many many times where children have been deliberatly killed by IDF soldiers. Do a search.
Heres one example.
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In October 2001, Harper's magazine published the "Gaza Diary" of journalist Chris Hedges. Hedges' entry for June 17, 2001 provides even more shocking evidence of the wanton and deliberate killing of Palestinian children by Israeli soldiers at Gaza's Khan Yunis refugee camp.
Hedges writes:
"I sit in the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes, momentarily defeated by the heat, the grit, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage. A friend of Azmi's brings me, on a tray, a cold glass of tart, red carcade juice."
"Barefoot boys, clutching kites made out of scraps of paper and ragged soccer balls, squat a few feet away under scrub trees. Men in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoke cigarettes in the shade of slim eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs protruding, are tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels."
"It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker."
""Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!""
"I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's ****!""
"The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come."
"A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos."
"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered -- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport." |
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You can "consider" whatever you want, but in order to be reasonably considered as DEFENDING yourself, someone has to be ATTACKING you. When those Palestinians are the ones that OPEN FIRE, they aren't really "defending" anything. |
Is it just me or are you implying that these soldiers,...that go into the west bank and gaza, are not the ones going in to attack???
That they are just strolling in for a ride in their tanks?
So what are those palesitnians to do? Watch as these ******s come in and demolishtheir homes, beat up their brothers and fathers... unessearily arrest men, burn belongings in the middle of the street, burn destroy their lives?
If force were doing that to my country, you bet i woul fight for my stuff,people and land. They have no right to go in and systemically patronize these people.
Its sickening.
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Gee I wonder why... maybe because the occupied is launching constant attacks and the occupier is trying to keep them at bay? Isn't that the whole point of military occupation? |
NO, the whole point of the occupation, in my eyes is to make the lives of these people as y as possible.
Heres a nice quote from the father of Zionism. from occupation? you think they are just fighting for the sake of fighting
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Theodore Herzl:
"Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." |
Heres another great quote by Gurion:
| quote: | David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." |
That is what is happening. Thank god the Palestinians have demographics as their ultimate weapon, they are pounding like jack rabbits.
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Don't see how their economy is relevant here. That tells us nothing about their mentality or what they do. And if you pushed me into a corner, I'd have to say that the most greedy, immoral, violent states are almost always the poor ones. |
If you were starving becuase you had no money, would you steal if it meant saving your life?
the same goes for this issue. If the pals were treated with respect, instead of caged rats, wouldnt you think they would resolve things in a much better fashion. If they were educated, looked at things objectively without religious indoctrination filling up their vulnerable minds.. wouldnt you think this violence would drastically die.
Im sure if they had swimming pools, nice houses, and clubs, there wouldnt be this mess.
Israel wont allow this. Theyve actually destroyed it under the pretext of 'ridding terrorists'.
How is bombing the ministry of Palestinian education and health 'ridding terrorists'? Thats ridiculous.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...a/lebanon_hamas
Do you honeslty need proof to understand the immediate reaction to his death. the skies of Gaza were black from burning tires.
These people are angry.
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They were always angry. They always wanted death. They never had any respect for human life. This is not a change. |
Actually, they wanted freedom, water, food, respect. They did have that hate and animosity all along, but now its at a dangerous level.
But now death is number one on the agenda... vengence.
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So you can predict the future eh? I wonder, does Palestine really want to turn this into an all-out war? Not a great move strategically... |
It doesnt take that much to know the effects of this. Looking at how many people will join the ranks of HAmas out of respect and honour for Yissin, the chances of a terrrorist attack has increased greatly. Why do you think there are stricter controls at checkpoints and borders now?
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:conf:
Again, proof? |
Posted above.
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The spiritual leader... you mean like... the one that rallied all those kids to go in and blow things up? Yeah, that's what I thought. |
Its one thing to rally these vulnerable minds and preach hate, and its another thing to actually send a bomber out to do their job. Yassin was a symbol. Again, rantisi is the MAIN person to kill.
Find the actual perpetrator.
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He was a terrorist leader. Terrorists in wheelchairs are still terrorists.
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You are right... makes no diiference if you are wearing a suit and sitting you fat Sharon ass in a chair, or if you are in a wheel chair. Terrorist leaders come in all forms.
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Oh well. Maybe they will soon. I'm sure he'll just be standing there waiting to be arrested, right? |
You could do better than that.
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Oh I see. So the UN was "bad" then and "good" now. Explain your reasoning? |
The UN was different, thats all im saying. decisions cased in the past are viewed much differntly than today.
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Of course Zionists can deal with that. The actions of Israel ARE oppressive. They have to be! Palestine is acting like a spoiled little bratty kid swatting at Israel every chance it gets. The only effective method to deal with this kind of thing is to slap them around. |
A spoiled little brat!!!! SPOILED!
HAHAHHAHAHHHAHHAHHAHAHAH...
Yeah slap them around,,,, kill a few here or there, crush some people, shoot some miisiles... that will teach em!:rolleyes:
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LOL, don't even get me started on that one. Everyone knows what happened with Camp David. Everyone knows that Arafat rejected the proposal without a counter offer. Why? Because it would have meant an end to their "phased process" of gradually taking more and more land from the Israelis until they were strong enough in a military sense to mount a real war and eliminate Israel. |
WHOSE GOING TO ELIMINATE ISRAEL... THE FOURTH MOST PWERFUL MILITARY IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!
The Palestinians????????? AHAHAHHAHAHA.. they ahrdly have the organization to do so!
Israel took Syria, Egypt and Jordan ALONE!!!!
This paranoia is the reason why the pals are suffering.. to hinestly think they have and will have the ability to destroy Israel is so laughable. Be a little more realistic man.
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Sorry, but that's just crap. Israel has the power to end the conflict, that's true - by carrying out another mass expulsion. But they can't do that, not now, not considering the current international political situation. But who knows, maybe if Palestine escalates its attacks again to a level where Israel genuinely fears for its survival, that just might happen? |
Here we go again about survival. This is the pretext many zio's use to rationalize the aggression the execute on millions of palestinians. My ass the pals will eliminate isreal.
Get real.
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Stop with Jenin already! You tried it in the PF and it didn't work so you're trying it here now? That just didn't happen as you'd like us to believe it did. |
A massacre is a massacre. Just becuase 52 palestinians dies, doenst mean its worthless. and I did succeed in the PF in desrcibing how disgusting and brutal the IDF were that day. They didnt even let the First aid to come in and help save lives.
Is 52 not many for you? Does it have to be in the hundreds?
What happened if 52 israelis giot killed in one day....im sure you would cry about it.
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The USA providing support (what little support they actually do provide) is only a "humanitarian injustice" because you believe that Palestine is "fighting for freedom." When you actually look at it rationally though, that's from the case. |
Umm... yeah. They are occupied. They are under the control of an occupier. They are not free. They are fighting for it. The US is helping Israel with instuments of oppression that enable them to further take their freedoms away.. Its that simple.
Do youthink that palesitnians are fighting becuase they just feel like it?
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That's quite a stretch, don't you think? Israel represents the one and only democracy in the middle east, this is true, and as such they have very strong ties with America. But if you're calling Israel America's puppet or something... well that's just crazy. I am sure that Israel can and does operate independently of the USA's wants and needs. The two nations share values and are in a sense allies - that is the extent of their relationship.
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How is that Crazy???? everyone sees that Israel is a US puppet to say the least. They are America. America needs israel as a strategic landing space/partner if anything were to occur. They need ISrael to Hegemonize the Middle east.
It has been known that Israel has asked persmission fromt he US to do many many things.... espescially assasinating Arafat. Presidents have time and again, opposed this.
the US has a strong Jewish Lobby, that helps in their cause in maintaing the strength of the mother land....Israel.
P.S Could you try refrain from writing 950237590259237 page responses. I only have so much time.
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| The Highroller |
this has turned into a last man standing match!
my money's on diginutz! |
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| DigiNut |
| Dear lord, I'll reply to that tomorrow, I can barely even stay awake right now let alone pick that apart. :p |
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