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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 10)
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| Inspector_Morse |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
listen for all i care, as soon as terrorism starts its a clear slate, i dont care for the cause, the reason, or the solution |
:(
Oh dear.
A conspiracy theorist appears just as foolish even when he's right.
There's a whole lot more to all this, but Eugene's right, the long posts are getting impossible to read, since many of us have other things to do.
Just wanted to mention my natural suspicions regarding why I'm shown certain facts and not others. The free press misrepresents the truth all the time, often without intending to do so. So all this yelling for 'shreds' of evidence is perhaps even more futile than trying to argue killing someone, be it an Israeli or a Palestinian, is justifiable and not an act of terror. Truth is the first casualty of war (I know how you guys love your quotations).
It's tempting to say 'you're both as bad as each other', but that may be akin (if I may steal the analogy) to a teacher using that phrase when reprimanding a fifth year who's brawling with some first years.
May not, though. How do we know?
EB, you evidently see there's a case for the abolition of war, and I admire your steadfast refusal to not be duped into thinking there can be such a thing as a 'just' war, since wars take on their own peculiar moralities once under way. Don't let the hardliners get you down.
This wasn't meant to be this long, sorry. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
The IDF commit actions like that every week, but I do not see their soldiers meeting the same fate. |
Prove it.. This assumption is coming from a person like you with your all so high standards of sources and proof. You can not prove this, I can prove to the counter.
Look at the Human Rights Violation against Israel, what they basically claim is use of EXCESSIVE FORCE, not USE OF FORCE, they understand these soldiers are in a war scene... I think it is very hard to judge the meaning of excessive force when you are not there in the position of the solider in the situation, therefore I pay little attention to these critisims.
Come on lets see you try and prove your statement above, you claim massacres yet have no proof, this is a very severe allegation.
Yoepus
Let Jesus be your anchor! So when satan rocks your boat, throw Jesus overboard! |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
That was over 40 years ago. |
They do this today as well, visit www.idf.il to see for yourself.
But you seem to have this problem, you think that the Palestinian people have a cause, have been the brunt of so much hate and fustration that turns them into suicide bombing.
The thing is this is not true, you assume hate breeds hate. However saying the suicide bombers have there reasons, is just like saying the Nazi's were oppressed so severly by the Jews, the Jews had it coming to them.
The fact is in both of these cases it is not true, the truth is that the society breeds this hate, and it is with in the social context that pushes for suicide bombers, just as it was the social context in Nazi Germany to push for the extermination of the Jews, even if in normal circumstance people would think twice about such thing.
Further, let me call upon my analogy of the abused kid. You have a small kid he is abused kicked and beat by his father. The kid does not strike back at his Dad, because he still is his father and he either loves or fears him (usually both), yet the kid does take his anger out.. he goes kills a dog, or tortures another pet.
This is the same principle that drives suicide bombers, the kid is the Palestinian people, the dad is Arafat, and the pet is Israel.
Yoepus
Can I buy you a drink, or should I just give you the money? |
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| FASTDJMP3 |
Yoepus dude we all know what Sharon did in the past (like Sabra and Shatila) , come on don't try to deny it or say he's not guilty until it's proven :) need i say that he wanted to kill in the past Arafat , and maybe even now but because of the international pressure and the negative consequences it can have ?
You are 100% right about democracy in our countries , yes we still live under dictatures , but i'm pretty sure it's gonna soon change . I can say that right now Morocco is the most democratic Arab country and African as well (without including South Africa) !! since our new King (Mohamed VI) is reigning , he made a lot of positive changes so far (freedom of speach , more participation of women in politics , human rights , etc ...) . We are slowly progressing , but WE ARE PROGRESSING thank God . Even the Arab reunion was a success , the Arabs never agreed with each others in the past (we have a famous proverb : the Arabs agreed TO NOT AGREE) :D
Izzy , me luckystrike DJ-Energy and ZinG are already planning on smoking a nargila in Canada (in like two years) :D ur welcome as well (do u have a texan accent ?) :p |
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| evil_bastard |
1972: British Paratroopers are fired upon. Dispute to this day as to who fired the shots. British Paras open fire on protestors, killing 13 civilians. 30 years of investigation, press coverage, court hearings, costing millions of pounds.
Kabul a few weeks ago: British Paras claim they're fired at. They return fire a taxi driving after the Kurfew, killing a pregnant woman inside. They are immediately removed from their outpost and flown 10,000 miles back home for infvestigation.
When British soldiers commit attrocities they are removed from their position and investigated and disciplined. If you like I shall find more examples - there are many.
Over 400 British soldiers have been shot dead by IRA snipers and bomb attacks in South Armagh (aka 'Bandit Country') alone. Many hundreds of civilians have died in bomb attacks on London and throughout Northern Ireland. To this day, strict rules of engagement have been upheld and every individual incident investigated. If you wish to challenge me on this you are welcome to do so.
Now let's look at the Israelis.
Source: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories (http://www.btselem.org/English/Stat...c_In_Is_eng.asp)
Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli security forces in Israel:
2 October 2000
Masleh Hussein Ibrahim Abu-Jarar, age 19, from Deir El-Balah, killed by Israeli security forces gunfire in Um al-Fahm, Israel
11 July 2001
Rasmiyeh Jbarin, a woman age 39, from a-Dhahariya, Hebron district, killed by IDF gunfire at Shoket Junction in the South of Israel. Jbarin was shot on her way to work in Israel, after her vehicle's driver attempted to bypass a military checkpoint
5 August 2001
'Ali al-Joulani, age 30, from Qalandia Refugee Camp in al-Quds district/The West Bank, killed by Israeli Security Forces gunfire, after having fired at Israeli soldiers near the Kirya army headquarters in Tel-Aviv, Israel
4 October 2001
Nizar Hamed, age 27, from Jenin, the West Bank, killed by Israeli Police gunfire after having fired at Israeli civilians in 'Afula, Israel
22 October 2001
Yusuf 'Ayash, age 37, from Artas, Bethlehem district,The West Bank, killed by IDF gunfire after having fired at his former employer and passers by in the Talpiot industrial area in West Jerusalem, Israel
17 November 2001
'Ahed Fayez Abu Druj, age 20 from a-Nuseirat refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, killed by the Border Police Special Anti-terrorist Unit, in the industrial zone of Nir Banim, Israel. Abu Druj was fleeing the unit. He was unarmed
9 Janaury 2002
'Abd a-Ghani Abu Jamus, age 20, from Shabura refugee camp, in Rafah, The Gaza Strip, killed by IDF gunfire after having fired at an army post near Kerem Shalom in southern Israel.
'Imad Abu Rizek, age 23, from Shabura refugee camp, in Rafah, The Gaza Strip, killed by IDF gunfire after having fired at an army post near Kerem Shalom, in southern Israel
17 Janaury 2002
'Abd a-Salam Sadeq Hasouna, from Nablus, the West Bank, killed by IDF gunfire after having fired at Israeli civilians in a banquet hall in Hadera, in Central Israel
28 Janaury 2002
Majed Abu Sa'ada, from Jayyus, Qalqilia district,killed by Israeli Police gunfire in Kfar Saba, in central Israel, after he drove through and IDF checkpoint and ran over members of the Israeli security forces
8 February 2002
Samer Abu Miyala, age 14, from East Jerusalem, killed by Israeli police in the Armon Ha'natziv promenade in West Jerusalem, Israel after having taken part in the stabbing to death of the Israeli civilian Moran Amit in the promenade
10 February 2002
Muhammad Batat, from Adh Dhahiriya/Hebron District/The West Bank, killed by Israeli security forces' gunfire near an army base in Be'er Sheva, in Southern Israel, after having opened fire at IDF soldiers
Khaled a-Til, from Adh Dhahiriya/Hebron District/The West Bank, killed by Israeli security forces' gunfire near an army base in Be'er Sheva, in Southern Israel after having opened fire at IDF soldiers
17 February 2002
'Abd al-Hamid Salah Hamudeh, age 18, from Nablus, killed on his way to carry out an attack, in the explosion of the device in his car caused by Israeli police gunfire on the Wadi 'Ara road, Israel
'Abd al-Jaber Jayyusi, age 22, from Jayyus/Qalqiliya District, killed on his way to carry out an attack, in the explosion of the device in his car caused by Israeli police gunfire on the Wadi 'Ara road, Israel
9 March 2002
Sa'id Nijme, from 'Askar refugee camp, Nablus district, killed by Israeli Security forces in Netanya, in centeral Israel, after opening fire at Israeli civilians
Shadi Bata, from Ein Beel Ma refugee camp, Nablus district, killed by Israeli Security forces in Netanya, in centeral Israel, after opening fire at Israeli civilians.
I have searched the internet and found absolutely no evidence that any of these soldiers were ever investigated. I'm sure if you search as well, or take advantage of the freedom of press you so frequently boast, then you will also find no such evidence of investigations. If you were really concerned over the authority of your leader's claims you would look into this.
Here is an extract from THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.
Source: http://www.btselem.org/English/Publ...cit_Consent.asp
"In several areas in the West Bank, settlers have instituted independent armed patrols. Participation in these patrols is by individual initiative, and is not sanctioned by the IDF and the Israeli police. The IDF has made its opposition to this activity clear, but seems to do nothing to halt it. The police continue to avoid investigating cases of settlers harming Palestinians, unless a complaint has been filed. For example, the police never investigated the death of two Palestinians at the hands of settlers during the current Intifida, despite the fact that the killings were reported in the media. This policy defies the police departments' legal obligation to investigate every suspected case of wrongdoing. The police ignore the many difficulties Palestinians face in filing a complaint. When under siege, for example, it is impossible for Palestinians to do so."
"Official response to Palestinian homicides stands in marked contrast to cases of Israeli homicides. A Palestinian who kills an Israeli is punished to the full extent of the law, sometimes along with his family. By contrast, it is likely that an Israeli who kills a Palestinian will escape punishment or receive a light sentence. In some of the cases of Palestinians killed by Israelis, no investigation was launched. The police or the State Attorney's Office closed half of the files. In contrast, when Palestinians killed Israelis, less than ten per cent of the files were closed. The sentences of Israelis convicted of killing Palestinians have invariably been commuted. No Palestinian convicted of murdering an Israeli has ever had their sentence commuted."
If this does not satisfy you I have more sources, from both the Israeli and Palestinian side, as well as outside. However, as you've stated yourself, the Israeli point of view is worthy evidence, and you can consult the official files yourself if you are concerned of the sincerity of your nation's propaganda.
I have also scanned a large section of the Israeli website address you gave me (http://www.idf.il/english/news/main.stm) and found no mention, anywhere, of soldiers either being disciplined or investigated. If you can give me a link to such a page I'd be grateful. |
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| Devbert |
evil_bastard, I don't think you are following a logical trend here.
In almost all of those cited incidences, the "victims", if they could be called that, either opened fire on Israeli's, or tried to break by a military checkpoint.
Why would Israeli soldiers selectively shoot these people? Really, think about it. Hatred for Palestine? Makes sense. So why aren't they just shooting 100 people a day, and claiming that they opened fire on them.
I'm more inclined to agree with the Israeli's because when they kill, it seems logical. They aren't mowing down dozens a day for no reason (hint-hint: Palestine suicide bombers attacking innocent civilians intentionally).
Sure, there is no proof for anything, but logically, it makes a whole lot of sense. |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
Eugene just shut up ... and the world is gonna be better
Yoepus and Izzy give facts and justify their arguments even if i don't agree with what they say cuz sometimes they don't want to admit some things (like Sharon is a psycho dude who wants to kill all the Palestinians) ... unlike you who just says stupid things and then at the end ur claiming that you're not a hater , how lame :rolleyes:
sorry dude but ur one big ignorant (just like the one rulling ur "welcoming" country) ... let's fight , errrrr .... hmmm .... the forces of evil
oh yeah and as u said the problem is the Palestinians , why were they in Palestina for more than two milleniums ? damn if only someone killed them all ages and ages ago , that would have been better for the jews ... right Eugene ? :rolleyes:
think 7 times in ur brain before u post something idiot again
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dude that was really uncalled for
You're starting the flaming, not me.
Note that I NEVER said the terrible things that you claim.
I am not ignorant, and if you read what I wrote about the Camp David talks on the previous pages you'll see that I back up my viewpoint with evidence.
"if only ... killed them ..." -- WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM? I'm sorry, but you are making stuff up. All my posts were peaceful, there was never any hate in them. So just chill!
And one more thing... about the "welcoming country"... you are in a "welcoming country" as well. |
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| evil_bastard |
Devbert, read my posts on British soldiers.
They are in the same situation, and face the full extent of the law.
Secondly, some of these civilians were unarmed. |
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| Devbert |
I've read the entire thread (believe it or not), and I understand what your saying about the British Soldiers.
I just think in most cases, I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the Israeli soldiers. I don't think most of them are just shooting innocent civilians and then claiming they were fired at.
Maybe there should be a further investigation, but in the current state of affairs they are in, it isn't the top priority. Peace being restored to the area is. And I think most Israeli soldiers would rather be safe at home, then making the situation worse by needlessly gunning down civilians. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
Devbert, read my posts on British soldiers.
They are in the same situation, and face the full extent of the law.
Secondly, some of these civilians were unarmed. |
You are comparing Apples with Oranges. You CAN NOT in anyway compare the moral equivilancy of your little conflict in the Isles to what is happening in the Middle East. If you expect Israel to act like your peace keepers then you should expect on the same level for the Palestinians to act like the IRA <- THEY DON'T.
Where were your IRA suicide bombers? Where were your IRA dictators?
At least your IRA people were sane enought to have a desire for freedom, security, peace, and above all their own skins. Please if the Palestinians would have called Israel every time they placed a bomb so we could have evacuated the area the situation would not look so hellish as it does not.. it probably would have been resolved much like your own conflict.
Again this is a time of war, investigations will be probably conducted after this phase not durning, it is no 'peace keeping mission' of a sort, and if there is a great travesty I garuntee you they will be investigated immediately.
I hope while you were at the IDF site you were able to scan over the charter and see what indeed the IDF stands for.
As for the comment on the settlers the police are spread thin due to terrorism, and the villages have a right to defend themselves. This is why, altough the police does not like it, it understand their desire. And contrary to your believe as is stated above the cases have been investigated. Just because many Palestinian cases has been dismissed is no excuse.. perhaps this means that more Palestianians are trying to kill the Settlers then vic versa? Perahps they did kill the Palestinian in self defense hmmm?? Again, you want both sides to share equal blame but the truth is this is not how it is in reality.
Yoepus
* Blessed are we who can laugh at ourselves, for we shall never cease to be amused. |
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| tenor |
Hmm. Wow. It's weird to notice how most americans in this thread seem to be totally pro-Israel. I didn't think the media over there was that badly skewed.
I won't reply to any messages in general, and truly feel sympathy for the Israelis around here, who have to fear for their lives etc. But would you rather live there, or at a place where there are foreign soldiers everywhere, where you can be put to prison without a trial, mandatory ID cards, torture, etc? That's Palestine for you. http://www.harpers.org/online/gaza_...diary.php3?pg=7
has a pretty nice report on what the life over there is like..
In 1948, it was decided to split the land. Before the partition happened, there was plenty of _ISRAELI TERRORISM_ happening (Deir Yassin, Count Bernadotte) which led to the mass emigration of the palestinians from palestine.. There was plenty of systematic destruction of the Palestinian villages - totally innocent civilians, for the purpose of driving them out of the country.. Then, in 1967 Israel decided that what it got from the UN was not enough, and attacked Egypt, claiming to act in self-defence (which it was not - "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.", Yitzhak Rabin), beating the living out of the Arabs, and occupying the areas given to the palestinians in 1948. This is - in my opinion - the root cause for the suicide bombings. The land was given to the palestinians by the UN, but Israel decided to take it. That's what the people are fighting for. THEIR OWN LAND BACK.
Also worth remembering is that Ben Gurion (First PM of the state of Israel) said in the 1930's that Israel would accept the partitioning of the country only because it would give Israel legitimacy in the international playing field but that the ultimate aim was to acquire ALL of Eretz Israel, whether by negotiations or by force. The same plan was in effect in 1949, when in the Lausanne conference the partitioning plan was signed, and Walter Eytan (head of the Israeli delegation) later said 'My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments.' Thus, the Israelis never wanted peace. They just want everybody else out of what they feel is theirs.
Now, some questions. Seeing as how the attacks by Israel have not done anything to stop the suicide bombers, is there any reason to keep them up and keep killing more civilians by accident?
Also - what is the justification for Israeli forces to be occupying the palestinian territories? Personally, I've heard of one - that if the palestinians were there without IDF watching over them, they could fire missiles into Tel Aviv. Now - knowing the military might of Israel, who would be stupid enough to do that? |
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| Devbert |
I truly feel sorry for the Palestenians as well.
The people should overthrow the government, but the government has made that almost impossible.
The point with counter-attacking Palestine makes sense after the suicide bombings though. If Israel backs off whenever there is a terroist attack, then it shows that terroism works, because that's what they want Israel to do - back off. By giving into the demands of terroists, your only fueling their ego by showing that it eventually works.
And the military might of Israel doesn't seem to matter. I bet if the IDF pulled out, missles would be fired almost immediatly. They don't want part of Israel, they want it all. |
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