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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 11)
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| evil_bastard |
Yoepus, you've skirted round everything I have just proven to you.
Firstly, I'd like to see a response from you regarding the ENTIRE SECOND HALF of my post, those extracts from THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.
That was the core of my post and I think you should respond.
Also, the situations are completely comparable.
IRA man shoots at British soldier. British soldier shoots back. IRA man and an innocent person in the vicinity die. British soldier is investigated extensively.
Palestinian gunmen shoots at Israeli Soldier. Israeli soldier shoots back. Palestinian and innocent bystander die. No investigation launched.
Now you can dress this up all you like, you can try and change the conversation or put 'spin' on your wording, but it's plain and clear that the IDF do not enforce their rules of engagement anywhere near as strictly as they should.
I have looked through the IDF site AGAIN and STILL see NO mention of discipline or investigations.
You call it a "little conflict in the Isles". British soldiers are standing in the same streets where their brothers have been shot dead! Are you trying to tell me they're not scared???
A soldier from the SAS regiment, the most feared and respect military force in the world with an incredibly tough and dehumanising selection process said "I saw dead men so deformed that their own mothers wouldn't recognise them - boys of 18 who had tried to slit their own throats because they had been so badly burned". That very man, Charles Bruce, described in a book he wrote shortly before his death the horrifying experiences he'd had, even though he was a toughened soldier, a member of the world's best military skydiving team, and he had climbed everest. He committed suicide after leaving the military. His friend, a fellow SAS veteran, gassed himself to death, a copy of War and Peace at his feet. 400 British soldiers have been killed in the small Northern Irish country that is South Armagh. British soldiers man these streets every day, to this day.
If you think the IDF are "showing restraint" then you clearly have a very different definition of "restraint" to the rest of the world. These men are getting away with murder. Practise what you preach.
Yoepus, These are VERY SERIOUS allegations, made not by me, but by THE ISRAELI INFORMATION CENTER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.
If you want Sharon and his Army of men to invade another land and enforce his own democratic ideals on a people many believe he hates, then this is a matter you should be taking seriously. I'm quite disgusted at your unshakable faith in the prowess of his military, despite VERY serious allegations coming from OFFICAL and RESPECTED bodies. It seems to me you're completely ignoring their findings, when earlier on you were talking about how the Israeli side is right. |
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| Inspector_Morse |
EB, chill. To be honest, the Bloody Sunday inquiry was, by many accounts, an absolute farce.
I find it offensive, Yoepus, to label the injustices perpetrated against the Irish "a little conflict in the Isles".
The IRA have done some terrible, terrible things over the years. The British government banged out the same "We will not talk with terrorists" line for years, but now there's a peace process. Things aren't fantastic, but they are apparently better. Why is there a peace process? Because, contrary to their small-minded rhetoric, the British did negotiate with terrorists, and have done for decades. I'd be very surprised if the Israelis don't do the same, as I have some faith in their pragmatism. Sadly, though, they must keep up the pretence of refusing to concede to terrorism, to appease bloodthirsty bigots like you. I say sadly, for it serves to further polarise populations.
You also offensively describe the IRA as being interested in their own skins. How dare you! Is this true of the hunger strikers? Why did they go on hunger strike? Why are terrorists driven to do the dispicable things they do? Are they all mad, but in identical ways? Perhaps they're psycopaths, although psycopaths don't plan things months in advance. Why do we have this insane idea that trying to understand why someone does something is equivalent to saying it's alright that they did? Your condemnation of Palestinian terror would sound a lot less hollow if you seemed to give a about their people, but you blatantly don't.
I'm ed off with reading your partisan, violence praising , so I'm no longer refraining from hurling abuse since in your eyes the only way I could be taken seriously is if I showed you photos of me stabbing a Palestinian in the face.
Sorry to have drenched everyone in bile. It's been a bad day, I wanted to vent, and it's not like I'm undermining any sensible discussion going on here anyway.
I have an answer for everything, and they're all out of a cheap quotations book |
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| tenor |
Some backing up of evil bastards arguments, quoted from 'Trigger Happy - Unjustified Gunfire and the IDF's Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada', by the B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories - eg. an Israeli group, rather than Palestinian..
On the afternoon of 27 September 2001, 'Ali Abu Balima, a thirty-year-old mentally retarded man from Dir el-Balah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, was walking near the road by the adjacent Kfar Darom settlement. A week earlier, the IDF had declared the road closed to Palestinians. The soldiers at the nearby army post fired several shots at Balima, killing him.
On 17 December 2001, several children from the Khan Yunis refugee camp were playing with toy weapons made of plastic. IDF soldiers at a post some one hundred meters away fired live ammunition at them, killing Muhammad Hanaidiq, age 15.
When the intifada began, the IDF defined the events in the Occupied Territories as an “armed conflict short of war.” The new definition brought about a change in the Open-Fire Regulations. In particular, it artificially expanded the term “life threatening.”
According to press reports, the army is acting in accordance with a new compilation of open-fire regulations, which is referred to as “Blue Lilac.” They were prepared a few months before the intifada broke out. These regulations expand the range of situations in which soldiers may open fire, and give the commanders in the field increased flexibility and discretion. The new regulations allow, inter alia, firing at the legs of stone throwers, and sniper fire from ambush. In some areas, the procedure for apprehending suspects is nullified, and soldiers are allowed to fire without warning at Palestinian suspects.
At the beginning of the current intifada, the IDF changed its policy, and it no longer automatically investigates every case in which IDF soldiers kill Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories.
To the best of B’Tselem’s knowledge, in only two cases were indictments filed for unjustified shooting, and the indictments were filed more than a year after the incidents occurred.
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Here's a link to the summary: http://www.btselem.org/English/Publ..._Happy_2002.asp |
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| Hell_Copter |
evil bastard...
let me refer to all those names u gave me,
they did something that made our soldiers to shoot them... but even if not
u want me to tell u about innocente people who get killed?
i can go to this morning newspaper and write tons of names of innocente people who got killed just in the last few days
o don't need no archive in the net to find what i want that happend over a year ago... cause it's happening as we speak!!!!
there was a bombed car that exploded 2 and a half hours ago in Jerusalem, luckily only one cop got wounded very bad and not so many like in the other incidents... u can defend on this kind of actions from them!!! |
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| TranceGiant |
"In 1948, it was decided to split the land. Before the partition happened, there was plenty of _ISRAELI TERRORISM_ happening (Deir Yassin, Count Bernadotte) which led to the mass emigration of the palestinians from palestine.. There was plenty of systematic destruction of the Palestinian villages - totally innocent civilians, for the purpose of driving them out of the country.. Then, in 1967 Israel decided that what it got from the UN was not enough, and attacked Egypt, claiming to act in self-defence (which it was not - "I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it.", Yitzhak Rabin), beating the living out of the Arabs, and occupying the areas given to the palestinians in 1948. This is - in my opinion - the root cause for the suicide bombings. The land was given to the palestinians by the UN, but Israel decided to take it. That's what the people are fighting for. THEIR OWN LAND BACK. "
First of all I'd like to know where your quotations come from. It they're taken from Jeff Halper's site im relieved. He is known for his lies and false accusations. I think he's Jewish, teaching in the Universitdy of Haifa..yet hes one of the biggest Antizionists and antisemites out there (him, avnery, chomsky, that gang).
And then..You history. Do u know what is worse than lies? Telling only parts/half of the truth. Selective history, that is. May i use the same method and proclaim that Jews have lived in Israel for 3ooo years until Arabs invaded it, claiming half of it? Sounds nice, eh?
1, the UN (which is actually sthe sedcond after the British) partition plan was introduced in 1947.
2, "ISRAELI TERRORISM" was part of the war going on, even before Israel was founded in May 1948. Yes massacres happened in Deir Yassin are an act of barbarism. However, Arab terrorism and Pogroms was the first to appear, back in 1929!! (Hebron and Jerusalem massacres). Moreover did the Zionist leadership too, condemn and as opposed to today's PA FIGHT and END the underground groups Irgun Stern gang etc.
3, The funniest part of you history lesson: You forget the war Arabs declared as a reaction to the foundation of Israel. On the same day 5 armies attacked Israel. You have enmies and in war it's either them or you. Israel won, the Arabs were driven away or left by themselves. However u cant speak of "ethnic cleansing" taking into account that today more than 1 million (that makes a fifth of the isr. population) are israeli Arabs living side by side (if they're not blown up by Palestinians like in yesterday's Haifa bombing).
4, NO matter where you have this Rabin quotation from, it's not "Zionist propaganda" but was obvious that Nasser being self-confident, feeling as the big leader of the Arab world, would make his threats come true ("We will drive the Jews into the sea" "We will finish what Hitler started"--> those are famous and you'll find them easily) Russia armed them, they drove UN soldiers out, closed sea connections, moved tanks. Oh well, if thats not enough..
5, "beating the living out of the Arabs, and occupying the areas given to the palestinians in 1948."
Ill sshed a tear, hold on, finished. Poor arabs indeed. Kept Palestinian refugees(and still do) liek animals, still speculating with the final victory and the end of the Zionist "entitity". Threatening all the time. Having Launched 3 wars at that time, and now they get beaten..In 1948 Nothing was given to the Palestinians, as they didnt acceot the partition plan and launched a war. Furthermore after the cease-fire 1949 Egypt and Jordan Occupied (
:eek: Arabs occupy "Arab" land?) Westbank and Gaza. Meaniing that those areas were under Arab control from 49 to 67. No1 wanted a "Palestinian State". The PLO was founded in 1964. 3 years before Israeli occupation, that is. Making one wonder: What did they wanna "Liberate" then?
6, "the root cause for the suicide bombings. The land was given to the palestinians by the UN, but Israel decided to take it. That's what the people are fighting for. THEIR OWN LAND BACK. "
ill repeat my post from tomorrow: Are the suicide bombers really an act of resistance/fight for freedom/act of desperateness(being "occupied")?
resistance: No, since illegitimate. No, since hitting civilians.
freedom: No, as they could have achieved their country 2 years eralier, by talks. No, since you just need to look at the Hamas and Jihad charter and you'll see that they want to free WHOLE PALESTINE (Israel, that is).
Occupation/frustration: No, since 0ver 90% of the Palestinians live under Arafat's regime. Israel offered to fully end the semi-occupation. 40% were already entirely in the pal- hands.
"Thus, the Israelis never wanted peace. They just want everybody else out of what they feel is theirs. "
Taht is why they made peace with Egypt in 1979, giving them back the Sinai, ripping off several Israeli settlements there. That is why Oslo was sighned, that is why Barak offered them a Palestinian State.
YOU.TALK.BULL. |
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| Flotser |
I kinda came here late and i'm sorry i cant respond on those 10 forum pages but i saw some pages and i have some comments..
people who say : "Sharon started the intifada by coming to the holy place of the palistinians...."
this is very simple to answer to ... the palestinins could send him a letter or talk about it on CNN like they like to do ... but they did something else in addition... the took all the HAMAS terror organization militants out of their prisons (there were no bombings on police stations then!!)... why? to call Sharon? lets not forget it was in the time of Ehud Barak's leadership and just a little after the "Camp David" peace negotiation where isral offered the palestinians ALL they asked (which means, retrival of all occupied terretories, removal of settelment, the split of Jerusalem etc.) EXEPT ONE THING which comes back in the "Saudy Peace Plan" - The "retrival right of the palestinian refugies" ... ok, i know it seems nice and Israel should welcome them back home... but no! those wars happened here were never Israles fault (some can say about the lebanon war, but many others will see it justified), Those people wanted to ERASE Israel , and as they said "Throw us into the sea" (there is a lot of polllution you know!:mad: and Cj Stone made a gr8 tune about it.. ), many of them are well trained terrorists .. (by the way El-Quaida is sitting with them in Lebanon now...but thats a defferent issue.. ). Secondly, dont forget what happened in Eourope when Jews had no country of their own....they were extarminated in horrible numbers - daily.... if we let all those refugies back in Israel it will just mean the destruction of Israeil...with an Arab majority...and israelis will be a minority again - everywhere. All those arab countries fightnig for the palestinians - but cant even find them home in their mass terretory countries! sure we have 1 millinion (i'm almost sure) Arabs living in israel that are getting full democratical rights and take place in the parlament in more than 2 (or 2) big parties...
what I was trying to say in that long passage up there is that we tried to do peace and offered EVERYTHING we can and even if it is very difficult for us.... and all the other side is asked to do is to make peace and fight terror... c'mon!!! We are defently the GOOD guys... they are always trying to sabotage those peace plans,
with the mass terror acts while and after the OSLO peace plan,
while Camp -David,
and also now when ZINI came here to negotiate a ciece fire and Israel fullfilled all he asked ... but the other side did nothing but made more terror. Dont forget the big terror acts in Nathaniya and Caffe moment in Jerusalem - Israel didnt respond cause we were kipping the ciece fire ... looking for PEACE, while they are looking for blood to sabotage in those peace plans.... very simple i think....
one more comment on:
"you destryed their police" -
bull! we shot on EMPTY building in most of the times... and never cracked down their police force ... given to them by us ... so sad they use it against us
SO STOP SUPPORORTING THIS PLO ORGINAZIED TERROR AND JOIN ISRAEL AT ITS IN-AL-MEANS-JUSTIFIED WAR AGAINT TERROR.
greetings to TranceGiant, Izzy, Youpus and every-other open minded persons |
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| Yoepus |
So many closed minded people here... Especially you british, Evil_Bastard, and Inspector... It is so funny to see how touchy you get when I say something like how the IRA are saints when you compare them to the PLO, Fatah, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc...
If you thought what you experienced is bad, I recommend you take upon the invitations extended upon you by other Israelis on this thread to visit Israel.
Secondly, Israel does negotiate (has) with terrorist. Namely Arafat. It didn't, then it did, both didn't work. So now we don't anymore, which seems all the much wiser now that the world is making a crack down on terror(? ok well Bush is, you guys nod your head and said yes, now back out.. very, very nice).
Again, if you get so angry at when I imply how tame your little terrorist are, and how you describe how your soldiers die. Just think of the horrible, horrible sites in Israel. And you know what? Israelis don't commit suicide.. why? They see these sites day and day out since they are very, very young. They know this is a part of life, people doing barbarian acts against them, and them trying to hold the high ground above them, responding only appropriately. So please.. do not try and go out on a limb and tell me how this guy was inncoent or that guy was innocent when they violated direct orders from military in a war scene. They should know better.. this is war, its not a joke.
Again, war can not investigate every single event now.. just like in WWII not every single event was investigated, as is in Afghanistan, as in Bosnia, and the Balkans... so don't compare some small intensity conflict to what is happening now.. all out war. But again, the records of these investigations are made public... they might now be on the IDF site, but they are public, and are available.
You should know better, Israel is a democracy, democratic armies do not operate on the same moral standards as predecor armies, and dictatorial armies.
Now to that finish guy who appeared into idiocy from no where. Learn some history. Again check a few message of mines back, the old thread contains a history note which I advise you to read.
I don't want to waste my time and correct every little thing you said there (all wrong), but just this point:
1967, you say Egypt had no intentions of starting a war.
Well then why did they blockade the port of eliat, and forbid the Suez from free international shipping? These are Causes Bellum - Justifications for War.. or a decleration of war in other sense.
Fruther... Syria had ammased troops, and so had Jordan.
Egypt had repeled UN observers who were stationed there to prevent such an Egyptian invasion, and did nothing. They did not fight or anything, Assad asked them to leave and they did. This is why Israel still is very angry at the UN and strongly discourages UN peacekeepers.
Yoepus
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. |
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| tenor |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
First of all I'd like to know where your quotations come from. It they're taken from Jeff Halper's site im relieved. He is known for his lies and false accusations. I think he's Jewish, teaching in the Universitdy of Haifa..yet hes one of the biggest Antizionists and antisemites out there (him, avnery, chomsky, that gang). |
Sure. That Rabin quote is from Le Monde, 29 feb 1968. The Eytan quote is from Ilan Pappe, "The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict, 1947-1951.". Is antisemitist = antizionist? How can jews be antisemitist? Hating themselves? (Not all jews are zionists, and not all zionists are jews)
| quote: | | And then..You history. Do u know what is worse than lies? Telling only parts/half of the truth. Selective history, that is. May i use the same method and proclaim that Jews have lived in Israel for 3ooo years until Arabs invaded it, claiming half of it? Sounds nice, eh? |
Oh? really? The jews controlled and ruled the area and such? I dont think so.. One thing you are missing is that the jews who actually lived in the area before England allowed unlimited immigration, lived in peace with the arabs. No problems. The problems started when the zionists came in.. (yes, i'm provocating here)
| quote: | | 2, "ISRAELI TERRORISM" was part of the war going on, even before Israel was founded in May 1948. Yes massacres happened in Deir Yassin are an act of barbarism. However, Arab terrorism and Pogroms was the first to appear, back in 1929!! (Hebron and Jerusalem massacres). Moreover did the Zionist leadership too, condemn and as opposed to today's PA FIGHT and END the underground groups Irgun Stern gang etc. |
Pogroms are not terrorism as such - more like riots. Also, Irgun was founded in 1931 - the difference isnt all that big. I would guess PA would do everything at their disposal to stop Hamas etc. if they were as independent as the Zionist leadership was when they stopped the terrorist groups. That is : an independent nation.
| quote: | | 3, The funniest part of you history lesson: You forget the war Arabs declared as a reaction to the foundation of Israel. On the same day 5 armies attacked Israel. You have enmies and in war it's either them or you. Israel won, the Arabs were driven away or left by themselves. |
I also mentioned what happened before it.. The destruction of Palestinian villages (some people estimate 85% of villages were destroyed then - I think it's irrelevant how many of them were destroyed).. Why do you think the arabs left? Who gave the Israelis the moral right to drive other people away from their home?? Also, after this war the partition plan was remade, right? Didn't the Israelis gain a bit of land then?
| quote: | | However u cant speak of "ethnic cleansing" taking into account that today more than 1 million (that makes a fifth of the isr. population) are israeli Arabs living side by side (if they're not blown up by Palestinians like in yesterday's Haifa bombing). |
Wow. That's down to 1930 level again.. 70 years and the arabs havent been breeding at all? Or has the Zionist campaign just been a great success? You probably already know this, but the Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights as Israeli Jews.. There was a story of an Israeli Arab who cant buy certain piece of land, because he is an arab. How nice, huh?
| quote: | | 4, NO matter where you have this Rabin quotation from, it's not "Zionist propaganda" but was obvious that Nasser being self-confident, feeling as the big leader of the Arab world, would make his threats come true ("We will drive the Jews into the sea" "We will finish what Hitler started"--> those are famous and you'll find them easily) Russia armed them, they drove UN soldiers out, closed sea connections, moved tanks. Oh well, if thats not enough.. |
Are you serious, trying to say that arabs had a chance? Are you serious in thinking they really were that stupid? Agreed - shutting out Tiran straits was stupid, but it still is no reason for war. Neither is moving tanks. Except, obviously, if you are Israel.
| quote: | 5, "beating the living out of the Arabs, and occupying the areas given to the palestinians in 1948."
Ill sshed a tear, hold on, finished. Poor arabs indeed. Kept Palestinian refugees(and still do) liek animals, still speculating with the final victory and the end of the Zionist "entitity". |
There shouldnt be any palestinian refugees. Why should everyone else take care of them just because Israel doesnt want them and drove them out of their homes?
| quote: | | No1 wanted a "Palestinian State". The PLO was founded in 1964. 3 years before Israeli occupation, that is. Making one wonder: What did they wanna "Liberate" then? |
How about the land that was taken from the palestinians, and resettled by the Israelis? Doh.
| quote: | ill repeat my post from tomorrow: Are the suicide bombers really an act of resistance/fight for freedom/act of desperateness(being "occupied")?
resistance: No, since illegitimate. No, since hitting civilians.
freedom: No, as they could have achieved their country 2 years eralier, by talks. No, since you just need to look at the Hamas and Jihad charter and you'll see that they want to free WHOLE PALESTINE (Israel, that is). |
Hamas and Jihad do not represent the majority of Palestinian population, you should know that.
| quote: | | Occupation/frustration: No, since 0ver 90% of the Palestinians live under Arafat's regime. Israel offered to fully end the semi-occupation. 40% were already entirely in the pal- hands. |
Under Arafat's regime? So Arafat is commanding all those Israeli tanks and helicopters there? Really? I didnt know that. Bull. The land is occupied, thus, not controlled by Arafat, but by the occupee (=Israel)
| quote: | | Taht is why they made peace with Egypt in 1979, giving them back the Sinai, ripping off several Israeli settlements there. That is why Oslo was sighned, that is why Barak offered them a Palestinian State. |
Oh, how nice of them it was to give them BACK area which they conquered. How peaceful is that! Oslo accords.. well. If the Israelis really wanted peace, maybe they should have done as they promised in the accords.. Like not build 1000 housing units in west bank or not letting the palestinians hold free elections.. (http://www.washington-report.org/ba...194/9411008.htm) |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: |
Until the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000, the Open-Fire Regulations in the Occupied Territories were based on Israel's penal code. Soldiers were only allowed to fire live ammunition in two situations: when soldiers were in real and immediate life threatening danger, and during the apprehension of a suspect.
When the intifada began, the IDF defined the events in the Occupied Territories as an "armed conflict short of war," and expanded the range of situations in which soldiers are permitted to open fire. Specifically, this was done through the artificial expansion of the term "life threatening."
The new version of the Open-Fire Regulations, which according to press reports are referred to as "Blue Lilac," have remained secret. |
I'm sorry, I just looked at that site the British dud found to list a name of none-innocent Palestinians 'civilains' who were killed, and then the Finnish idiot quoted the above thing.. He forgot to include the paragraph below which totally discredits this report.
I mean LOL, look at this:
| quote: |
The new version of the Open-Fire Regulations, which according to press reports are referred to as "Blue Lilac," have remained secret. |
SECRET see that??? If they were secret how the hell does this organization know what they are?? This is truly just stating opinion without backing it up with any fact. They note one incident, with no sources, or total context (I don't know, I wasn't there what happened), and then prove it by saying Israel has a 'new secret' document which says such, such and such. How about they publish the document then eh?
Come on... LOL... try the Intenerational Red Cross or someone next time.. at least they have more crediability.. lol that is so funny... "they have new version and it says this and this.. but we don't know.. its top secret". My god.
Yoepus
Order is for idiots, genius can handle chaos |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by tenor
Sure. That Rabin quote is from Le Monde |
Again. Violates UN Charter - Justification for war by imposing blockades, Expulsion of UN observors. One could have only assumed their real intent.
| quote: | | Oh? really? The jews controlled and ruled the area and such? I dont think so.. |
Neither did the Palestinians? Whats your point??
Here since I know you are an idiot, and you are to lazy to actually look up the history of this conflict, I will give you the short and brief history of the conflict... should take you just 4 min to read it all, and might give you a better understanding.
Lets start, Jews have lived in Israel for more then 10,000 years. They have not lived under their own domain for around 1500 years. The number of Jews living is Israel had dropped since they lost their own self-government. They had been scattered across the world by conquerors and not permitted to return till 1948. They were persecuted continuously since this time around the world.
Zionism:
1870, the Zionist movement begins; it aims to create a homeland for the Jews in their ancestral lands. This is due to the rise of Jewish intellects, and the ever rising persecution in Europe of Jews.
Pre-WWI:
At this time the Ottoman Empire is the ruler of the lands, and does not allow Jewish migration to the area. Many Jews move there despite this. They help revolt against the Turks during WWI with the British. When the peace was signed in Paris, Britain was given mandate over this territory with the acceptance that they comply with the Balfour Declaration, which stated that Britain will designate this area as a future Jewish homeland, and will help the Jews establish it as such.
Post-WWI:
They did not. Arabs had already been warring with the Jews, as they swarmed into the area under the British mandate The British did much the opposite and tried to accommodate Arabs, by restricting Jewish migration to the land, while looking the other way for Arab migration. The Arabs doubled their populace under the British mandate. In 1938 the Peel commission was setup to divide the lands and find a peace between the warring Jews and Arabs. Both sides rejected the plan, but the Jews decided to continue negotiations, the Arabs instead resorted to more violence. Jews rebelled against the unjust British rule in hopes of finally establishing their own country under their own self-determinations. The Arabs just hoped to rid the Jews from the land, not the British.
Post WWII (Independence):
1. In 1947 the British gave up and let the UN decided the fate of the mandate. Especially now under growing international pressure as the world had grown to realize the crimes committed against the Jews in WWII.
2. They recommended it be divided into two countries once more. Israel accepted this proposal and declared Independence on May 1948, 5 Arab armies decided to destroy the Jewish state in its infancy. They had rejected the UN plan and opted for an ‘All or nothing’ approach by utilizing war. The plan backfired and Israel established itself on more land. Egypt annexed Gaza, Jordan annexed the West Bank.
Israeli-Arab Wars:
• Then 1956, Egypt had declared war on Israel. Israel launched the Sinai campaign which successfully reopened the Suez canal to free international shipping.
• 1967, Egypt had once again declared war on Israel. Syria and Jordan had never declared normalization with Israel and continually bombarded Israeli territory, and utilized terrorist to infiltrate into Israel and wreak havoc. Israel launched a pre-emptive attack due to the army build up and captured more territory. Including the West Bank and Gaza, this is where the Palestinians would like to have you believe the conflict started. The PLO was founded however in 1964, when these territories were in the hands of the Arab neighbors, yet they still directed their violence on Israel.
• 1973, Egypt, Syria, Jordan made a surprise attack on Israel on it’s highest Holy day in hopes of finally removing the country form the map, or at least regaining lost territory.
Peace Process:
• 1978 Israel exchanged land for peace with Egypt (Camp David).
• 1993 Israel signs Declaration of Principles (Oslo) with Palestinians. It says Israel gives Palestinian autonomy, and recognizes their right to self-determination and nationhood, Palestinians give up violence and resort to diplomacy and mediation to resolve problems in the creation of their country. The Palestinians failed to do this.
• 1994 Israel signs mutually beneficial peace treaty with Jordan.
Modern Palestinian Conflict:
1. 2000 After missing yet another opportunity for Peace Arafat decides a new intifada will solve his problems and mentions peace only through his lips to the Western world. After changing many leaders, each with their unique approach to the peace problem and facing another side which will not negotiate Israel faces no future so long as the world does not recognize its hypocrisy by recognizing the terrorist dictator the Arafat is to his people.
2. Israel is a true democracy, Palestine a true dictatorship. In the history of the world no true democracy has fought another.
Conclusion:
The Israeli side has been flexible, elected, and changeable, Arafat has remained a constant. It would not be so hard to conclude the removal of Arafat might result in better circumstances for the trouble in the Middle East. |
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| FASTDJMP3 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Eugene
dude that was really uncalled for
You're starting the flaming, not me.
Note that I NEVER said the terrible things that you claim.
I am not ignorant, and if you read what I wrote about the Camp David talks on the previous pages you'll see that I back up my viewpoint with evidence.
"if only ... killed them ..." -- WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM? I'm sorry, but you are making stuff up. All my posts were peaceful, there was never any hate in them. So just chill!
And one more thing... about the "welcoming country"... you are in a "welcoming country" as well. |
what u said previously shows that u are ignorant about the subject ... and i'm quoting :
| quote: | | My point: when people say "stop this cycle of violence," I want to ask: "What cycle?!" The violence has been coming from one side -- the Palestinians. Israel is defending itself against the suicide bombers (or terrorists, as you might call them -- who are no different from the terrorists that slammed the planes into WTC.) |
give us a break Eugene , are you sure the violence comes from ONE SIDE ONLY ???? have u ever seen the violence coming from one side only during a war ????
as for the welcoming country thing , yes i do live in a welcoming country as well , and i didn't mean "u did a bad thing by living in another country" ... i was simply referring to the USA
my intentions weren't to start a flame or call u names , but what u said kinda pissed me off ... sorry if u felt offended |
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| evil_bastard |
Anyone else see the BBC 10 o clock news?
I hope you were watching, Yoepus.
A peace protest in Bethlehem, largely consisting of Brits, were fired upon by what appeared to be live ammunition from the gun of an Israeli tank. 3 people were wounded from shrapnel.
The tank then turned it's gun on the BBC crew, and fired shots literally within two feet of them. The camera crew (this was all on film) put their hands in the air, and then retired to their vehicles to move away as requested by the Israeli troops. The Israeli troops ordered that they retreat, on foot, their hands in the air.
This was a peace protest for christ's sake.
It would really make my day if I were to find out that these soldiers had been removed from their outpost, their positions reviewed, and their conduct investigated. But sadly I am almost certain this will not happen.
Yoepus, I'm finally convinced that you in fact don't care for the mass Palestinian population. You are willing, no sorry, let me rephrase that, you want, Ariel Sharon and his Army to overrun the Palestinian people, enforce their own democratic ideals, and lead the people.
Any man who cared for the Palestinian poulation would be concerned that the people he was sending in to conquer and rule were responsible, yes?
In the last week, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan condemned Israel's "unnecessary" use of force and "illegal" occupation of Palestinian territory. The official
In the fact of very serious allegations against Sharon and years of allegations against the Israeli Defence Force and Police, you believe they're still trustworthy enough to conquer and lead the Palestinian people. You seem to counter evidence, put forward by myself via internet sources, the words of Kofi Annan, the words of the Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights, the views of journalists the world over with this:
| quote: | | I hope while you were ... able to scan over the charter and see what indeed the IDF stands for |
Respected organisations say that they are not adhering to that charter. The Israeli Information Centre for Human Rights says that the Israeli police and defence force neet to improve (and I'm putting their words very kindly here), Kofi Annan says it, and hell I could find a dozen other respectable sources if need be.
After all this you still consider Sharon "clean" and you see him fit to conquer and rule the Palestinian people.
It seems to me that you must be aware that Sharon is kicking up a lot of controversy, yet you still have no reservations about him conquering a people many say he despises.
I think if you really gave a for those people you'd be concerned that the man and the Army who are wading into their territory to lead them are responsible people - but you don't really seem that concerned. I for one don't trust them, I've read enough reports by Western journalists and by respected international organisation, and seen enough footage of the IDF, to see that they are not trustworthy.
Hillel Shocken in Ha'aretz goes so far as to say the Israeli people should take some blame for themselves. The Six Day War was a genuine war of survival, but since then you've elected consistently nationalist ex-generals to lead you. |
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