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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 6)
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by DamnDirtyApe
I give up. It's impossible to win an argument with a fanatic.[/b] |
Look this is not a religious debate or something. We are using fact logic, history, and truth to explain our points. You can easily disprove our arguments if you find evidence to the contrary.
| quote: | | Yoepus, Izzy, and Eugene - try and realize that there are two sides to every story. Don't automatically believe the propaganda of one side. |
We do realize, just like their are two sides to WWII, and two sides to the USA - Taliban Al'Queda war. However, in those two wars, just as in this current one.. one side it soley using propaganda, while the other side is in pursuit of defense and freedom.
So please, take your own advice, do not automatically believe everything the Palestinians are telling you.
Yoepus
- Mr. Churchill, you're drunk!
- Yes, and you, Madam, are ugly. But tomorrow, I shall be sober. |
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| evil_bastard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
to me it is enough, that ever since he is under siege he has said nothing to denounce terroism but yet has enough time to take interviews from christian amenpour. |
I have dealt with this later in my post. Scroll up.
| quote: | | firstly let me say that all of yoepus's and my posts have had references to actual facts/evidence. i have not seen a single shread of any backing on any of your posts. |
You have given no proof, and neither has he.
He makes sweeping statements implying that every police station housed suspicous weapons, then shows me pictures of one police station with arms. That's not proof.
He states that Arafat has done 100% nothing to stop terrorism.
No proof.
Neither of us can prove our statements, just about EVERYTHING that's been said in this thread has been objective. The difference is, I'm not passing my opinions or assumptions off as fact.
| quote: | | im sorry that i give more weightt to information coming from nations with freedom of press who are free to express and critize themselves freely :rolleyes: |
Might I remind you that the IDF do not allow journalists near the front line. Might I also remind you that yesterday US troops threatened to "take out" a British journalist in Afghanistan if she did not leave the area. Might I remind you that the Bush administration told CNN to mention September 11 at the end of every single news report about the war.
You only have to look at the tabloids.
| quote: | | im sorry but arafat has complete control over his media and uses it to his advantage. |
I have never seen him encourage anti-Israeli sentiment, have you?
| quote: | | when was the last time you ever read an article in the palestinian newspaper critizing arafat? |
Palestinian newspapers aren't available here. There goes your "freedom of press" statement...
| quote: | | critisizm on sharon happens daily in israeli press - which is a good and healthy thing. so are you implying you agree to the palestinian press who is oppressed from a dictatorial leader? not only that by yoepus and i have also give facts outside of the american/israeli govt/press, we have used charters, UN resalutions, quotes from officials, etc... which is more then i've seen from you |
The critical statements made throughout this thread have not been backed up. If you want I'll make a list, and I'll bet you can't prove these sweeping statements you and he have made and tried to pass off as fact rather than personal observation.
I can see the tactics you're employing in this discussion, and they're beautifully summed up in the above quote.
Rather than focus on what causes the problem, you're turning this into a match of "who is more responsible, Arafat or the Israeli people?".
It's a very flawed comparison to make, it's not even a comparison really.
| quote: | that does not justify terrorism! nothing in the world does
and if what i understand from you is that arafat cant stop terrosim easily, then why are you blaming israel for doing it for him? |
I'm blaming the right wing extremists on both sides, I have throughout this thread.
Why are you trying to manipulate what I say?
| quote: | | ya that makes sense we intimidate them so that we got hit even harder, ya i think israel enjoys being the brunt of terrorist acts. |
Yes it is pretty foolish isn't it. That's what I've been trying to put across all along. Every retaliation is followed by another retaliation. Someone has to stop or this will never stop. It's really not very hard to understand.
| quote: | | or are you going to argue that the acts done by israel to the palestinians are worse than what is happening to israel by palestinian hands |
Stop this.
| quote: | | no criminal record? LOL, now you're starting to sound as though you have never read a book. what about the assasination of the israelis at the 1972 olympic games, that was proved by the world to have been done by the PLO (remind me who their chairman is?) how about the karine A? i can keep on going on and on but really i only need one aligation. you said right: "who is seemingly a legitimate member of society" |
Truth is, there have been many suicide bombings and attacks on Israel, and I honestly believe some of them would have been very hard to predict. Most if not all belonged to terrorist organisations, but who knew about it? And then you have ordinary citizens who go nuts at Israel.
then many palestinians do not deserve to represent humanity.
| quote: | | call it what you will terrorism is evil and should NEVER happen |
I agree. Maybe we should just "crush the Palestinians", that's a very ethical move.
| quote: | | seems to me you are ignoring our posts. it is never the intention of the israeli government or IDF to commit acts of terror agianst innocent palestinian civilians but as you said before "many palestinians see the suicide bombings as justified" hmm there is an obivious worse side here. which i am dumbfounded as to why you wont admit it. |
I'm sorry you feel I'm ignoring your posts, I just prefer not to nit-pick at every little sentence someone makes. However, to show I've read everything you've said, I have done so in this instance.
I find it quite intriguing you can speak on behalf of the IDF and Israeli government. I assume you're of enough political and military importance to assert such comments? |
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| NyKoN |
dont u ppl understand that we didnt want those filthy palestinians in our country?! they dont belong here!
b4 the intifada started each and every israeli had peace with the arabs
but, came mr. arafat and said: i want the whole frigging country, ahhahahaha!!!!!!.
and started the damn war against us!
we tried to stop the violence in the last 2 weeks but when they affend our right to have a holiday than thats where we drew the line and said no!
its time for arafat to b exyled! and this time to die there!
you ppl have no idea how it is to live under the shadow of terror at ur window, im afraid to go out and meet my friends!
there was a suicide bombing near my house where i often go to, and u have no idea what it feels like when these things come too close to ur house!
think that in the middle of ur thanks giving dinner, an arab will come to ur house and blow himself up in it!
wouldnt u want revenge?! wouldnt u want to grab his parents and just shoot them in the head?!
we lost more than 150 ppl this march! we have atleast one incident every day that goes by, they dont care if its a holiday or just an ordinary die.
each and every civilian in israel is walking down the st. afraid of being shot at!
try living with that reality and than come and tell me about war crimes!
if u hate what we do to fight all this, i dont blame u...
but never judge us b4 ur in our shoes every day, walking the streets in fear! |
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| TranceGiant |
Evil Bastard....u make it very hard to discuss with you. Every single word has to be proven, cant u just believe certain things? Cant u just TRUST people who LIVED there and surely know MORE about the conflict than the Sky-news watching you?
IN your desperate search for "neutrality" your lose reality.....
Ill try to explain the current events by asking questions:
What do Palestinians SAY they want?
The End of the occupation.
What did Ehud Barak offer them in August 2000?
The End of the occupation.
What do they also claim, but hardly mention (in fact it is mentioned in the Saudi Arabian "peace.proposal" yet overlooked by the biased media)?
Right of return for the 4 million refugees in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan.
Why cant Israel accept this?
Cause it would leade to an Arab majority, killing Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people.
Conclusion: A, they claim more but somehow dont tell any1
B, They do insist on the refugee solution--> they dont
accpet Israel's existence-->they lie
C, They DO not want peace--> dont accept Israel--> they
lie
Who started the second Intifada?
The Palestinians.
Why?
Only god and Arafat know. Probably thinking Israel would give up, or that they could weaken our position in future peace talks, or that the UN would interveine gviing them theyr sovereign state (why didnt they accept Camp David 2 then?--> probably they thought that being protected by the UN, they could continue thei war against Israel, having thei own army (the UN wouldnt care--> see Capturing of 3 Israeli soldiers in Northern Israel, while the UN people watched, filmed and did nothing) )
Are the suicide bombers really act of resistance/fight for freedom/act of desperateness(being "occupied")?
resistance: No, since illegitimate. No, since hitting civilians.
freedom: No, as they could have achieved their country 2 years eralier, by talks. No, since you just need to look at the Hamas and Jihad charter and you'll see that they want to free WHOLE PALESTINE (Israel, that is).
Occupation/frustration: No, since 0ver 90% of the Palestinians live under Arafat's regime. Israel offered to fully end the semi-occupation. 40% were already entirely in the pal- hands.
Why fight Arafat?
Yoepus had explained you..no need to continue there. Just combine: arafat supports Hamas, Hamas fights Israel, aiming to destroy it---> Arafat...? yeah right.
i could go on, and on and on..
One question for you: What should Israel DO!? |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
I'm sorry you feel I'm ignoring your posts, I just prefer not to nit-pick at every little sentence someone makes. However, to show I've read everything you've said, I have done so in this instance.
I find it quite intriguing you can speak on behalf of the IDF and Israeli government. I assume you're of enough political and military importance to assert such comments? |
look we've refered to you to look at the charters many times, seems like it went right by you. i have not said i speak on behalf of the IDF and israeli government. I have said i base it backed upon the what they stand for as given by many documents.
here i've have done the research for you
the following is taken directly from the PLO charter
| quote: |
Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it. They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.
Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.
Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.
Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.
Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.
Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.
Article 30: Fighters and carriers of arms in the war of liberation are the nucleus of the popular army which will be the protective force for the gains of the Palestinian Arab people.
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the fatah charter
| quote: |
5. Continuing to intensify and escalate armed action and all forms of struggle to liquidate the Israel_ Zionist occupation of our occupied Palestinian land and guaranteeing our people's rights to freedom and independence.
6. Bolstering national Palestinian unity on the various political and military levels, reiterating the PLO's leading role, and escalating the popular intifada aimed at ending the Zionist Israeli occupation
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i dont even want to get into the charters of orgnazations such as hamas, al aqsa martyr brigade, force 17, tanzim, islamic jihad, all of which originate from within the palestinian controlled areas
from the declaration of establishment of the state of israel - 1947
| quote: |
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
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also dealing with israelis human rights and rule of law
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0ff10
now i would love to give you the principles of the IDF, but their site seems to be down right now. its supposed to be www.idf.il
please check everything out and come to conclusions, i am not adding my opinion to any of this.
there is a lot to say about your last post, lots, but right now i dont have time. it still seems to me that you are justifying terror :(
btw in the meantime, what do you think arafat should do? and what do you think the israelis should do at this time? |
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| AnotherWay83 |
there isn't gonna be a war, for the simple reason that both sides know they will lose much more if they went to war than they would lose otherwise...
peace |
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| Eugene |
Okay, everybody, look...
In the summer of 2000, Arafat met with the then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton, at Camp David, to discuss a potential resolution to the conflict. Ehud Barak, the most far-reaching of all Israeli leaders, was prepared to go to great lengths to accommodate the Palestinians' demands and to assert the following simple reality: Both Jews and Palestinians are here to stay, and there had better be a framework for those two groups to live in peace.
Arafat's response? Rigidity, stubborn maximalism, refusal to compromise. Barak said after those discussions, "We discovered that the other side is not a real partner for peace." The Camp David talks broke down. Then, the Intifada began.
The rest you know very well. Suicide bombers who claim to be "freedom fighters," the official refusal to negotiate, the maximalist "all or nothing" mentality. Must Israel sit idle while its civilians are killed by the storming fanatics who grew up with hate and want nothing but death for themselves and Israel? |
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| biznology |
ok, i prolly shouldnt be posting because i
a)dont know every fact related to the situation, and
b)dont really care all that much, but....
the israelis and palestinians have been fighting over this supposedly holy strip of land in the friggin desert for THHOUSANDS of years. people in the rest of the world dont understand the religious implications, because they cant see the problem. the groups living there, somehow think of themselves as 'better' or in the least 'different' from the other people there, when being distinguished by RELIGION! its just faith and holy scripture, yet the israelis on this board saying: 'we dont want those dirty palestinians in OUR country...' thats just retarded. there is NO genetic difference between the 2 groups, and you cant say that one religion should get precedence over the others either.
each group of jews, christians and muslims are responsibile for problems in the area. the palestinians arent TERRORISTS for no reason...i remember back duinr September when the entire world was blaming America for 911. again, the israelis need to self examine. WHY are there so many suicide bombings? because the state of Israel has been a dictator over the Palestinians, and have gotten overwhelming support from the West(for some bizarre reason).
the main problem everyone in Western countries are getting so fed up with this retarded struggle is that WE can usually live in harmony with other religions. it shouldnt matter so much...late/ |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
the israelis and palestinians have been fighting over this supposedly holy strip of land in the friggin desert for THHOUSANDS of years.
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WTF, they've only been fighting since the start of the 20th century, when Jews from Eastern Europe started coming to the Holy Land.
| quote: |
the main problem everyone in Western countries are getting so fed up with this retarded struggle is that WE can usually live in harmony with other religions. it shouldnt matter so much...late/ |
OUR experience is completely irrelevant.
The Americans are separated from the outer world not only by an ocean, but also by a different culture and a different mentality. |
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| Spad |
| quote: | Originally posted by biznology
the main problem everyone in Western countries are getting so fed up with this retarded struggle is that WE can usually live in harmony with other religions. it shouldnt matter so much...late/ |
Hrm there's been little evidence to support that the last century :p |
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| Tranex02 |
| quote: | Originally posted by NyKoN
dont u ppl understand that we didnt want those filthy palestinians in our country?! they dont belong here!
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:rolleyes: whatever dude..... |
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| AnotherWay83 |
hehe sorry i dont mean to make light of the situation but all this mess is indeed related to the imperialistic policies of the british empire...sumtime back they had a documentary here on PBS about this whole conflict and they talked about how the british at first promised the arabs their own homeland and sumthing like that and then reneged on it, instead telling millions of jews to go live there...or sumthing like that i dont remember sorry...
peace |
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