|
We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 15)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Izzy |
ok guys i want to add a few personal things about this whole topic.
to be honest this topic has been on my mind for many hours of each day since last wensday. i think about it constently and in the past two days it really has been what i consume myself with. i want to say that i am truely enjoying this thread and that when i post in a way it is for me to release my emotions/thoughts/stress.
just two years ago i was a true left wing peace "hippy" when it came to this issue. i grew up an israeli school system that embraced peace. teaching movements such as rabin's and the preaching of the doves, prosperity and friendship (you israelis know what i mean) that said ever since then i have become more and more extreme right wing when it comes to dealing with arafat and his authority (notice i did not say the palestinian people). actually looking back its kinda scary to see how much pro-peace was brainwashed into me, its all cleared up now thanks to arafat. today i took time to take a step back and look at everything from above, i've reviewed most of the two threads and questioned everything agian. after this my views have not bugged a bit if not be it more resiliant. i want to now point out some things about what has been said here.
evil_bastard - i do not enjoy comments such as, everyone here repititavely beats to their own drums. that is not true here. a lot of people here enjoy talking about this issue and have come up with more and more new proofs and views as to why they think so. this place is a great learning experience for people. i would be inclined to say that you dont care about any of this and as yoepus said are steadfast in your ways, but the fact that you continue to be active here relieves my mind of this.
tenor - i find it most disturbing that in the scenerio you presented the mear thought of committing that kind of act agiants innocent civilians would cross your mind. it would never ever come through my mind. i cherish life (especially that of the innocent). as an israeli who is in the US partialy in order to not to serve in the IDF (as is a must to all citizens who pass the criteria) i think long and hard before i would take up arms for any cause. listen we have never blamed the palestinians for using violence agianst legitamite targets (which is also wrong) but terrorism? do you see a difference, its a large one.
also the general way these threads have been going is that of us (pro-israeli) guys trying to debating over events in history and defending bad acts israel has committed. now although our arguments might not prove innocence in a court of law, the mere fact that we can bring ample, real, factual, evidence in support of our postions is a lot more than what i can say about you guys. I have noticed that none of the allegations that us, the israelis, put forth are being defended. no one has brought any arguement as to disprove that arafat is a terrorist, has links to terrorism worldwide, has a totalitarian regime, oppresses media, brainwashes children through the education system, to those are just naming a few. these aligations can mean only two things:
1) it is not true, meaning that you are obviously one sided and dont care to prove it (showing that you are blindly anti israel)
2) its true, which shows me that you accept it is true and do nothing about it but by doing so you show me that inspite of all this you think that the palestinian side is the right one or at least better than the israeli side. which i completely disagree with.
it is my philsophy when comparing two sides of ANY issue there is to the most extent ALWAYS a better/more valid side to be on. its like taking any 'x' and 'y' from the set of all real numbers... do you know what the chances of 'x=y' are? infinitly small, basicly 0. i find the case of israel vs. palestinian authority (notice agian i dont say palestinian people) more black and white then many other conflicts i've seen, and then for you to go around and condemn both sides equaly is wrong. sure israel may have done wrong and should be held accountable too but we are all judging in direct comparising to the other side's regime. there is an apparant morally superior side. GnikyLime, you were right when you said no one is perfect... but its about time we come to accept that, not each side is perfect but one side can definetly be better then the other.
one should not judge based upon just some actions here and there but look at everything in context overall and judge also by the intentions of people/governments:
*i can quote many israeli cabinet members that they have no intention of occupying palestinain land already under their own autonomy)*suicide bombings are intended to kill innocent israeli civlians, note i said israeli, not jews, these bombings can strike at any one - jewish, chirstian, muslim, american for that matter as well. on the other hand based on what official IDF comments and comments from basicly all of our politicians, that they are only targeting the terrorist themselves and their infrastructure.
*based upon the priniciples i put earlier from charters of the PLO and orginizations within it, compared to the israeli ones (declarations...), one can tell which side is "inciting" violence. those documents are good backing for intentions of the parties.
and the critical desicions that have been made by each side:
*no one has answered us to why arafat did not accept a plan (and i can quote many american officials on this) with over 90% of the land he wanted, east jerusalem as his capitol, and the right of return to any palestinian to those territories.
fastdjmp3, agian i applaud you for the fact that you relise democracy is the way of the present/future. personally i think stronger action by humanity needs to take much stronger action at oppressive regimes all over the world. the quicker we do it the less pain, suffering and death, people will experience over time. i enjoy your support of the reformations happening within morrocco and what you say is happening there (ie more civil liberties... etc) is very respectable. |
|
|
| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
Do you people even find it possible to respond to a comment about Sharon without pointing the finger at Arafat?
Sharon is a bastard.
|
because there is ample proof arafat has connections to terrorism if not directly being in charge.
i havent seen anything but alligations from thin air about sharon's "evil intentions" |
|
|
| Izzy |
oh and someone here asked me as to the solition to this
this is my opinion, as i see arafat deserving of most of the blame, he as is to me as the israeli government, irrelevent. i see that the expelling of israel or sending him to the war crime tribunal at da hague (sp?) as a perfect solition. under international observers i am more then totally confident that enough evidence can be put forth to lock him away for the few more years he has in his life. not only that i suggest israel re-occupy the area (and continue uprooting the terrorist infrastructure) until the introduction of a democratic intern government is set up by an international pannel (ala afghan style). this should only take a matter of weeks. i completely beilive that the palestinian people desrve their own country as proposed by israel and US at camp david (lets face it america has been involved the most in this issue then any other country, and they are unquestionably the strongest voice in the world), but not under their current regime. with all the charity money flooding into palestine as is right now it being taken care of directly by a UN commision or world aid instead of through the hands of a corrupt dictator, the area will be prosperious within no time. i can not see how such a plan can fail, where are there faults in my plan?
plus the news has reported that hezbolla fighters have shot mortars from lebanon into israel proper. is that not an act of war? what does this tell us of thier intentions? remember this incedent so i can point you back to it if israel were to take an offensive in order for this not to happen agian, btw israel did fire back afterwards :p |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
A couple of points I'd like to respond to there.
Firstly this one:
| quote: | | i havent seen anything but alligations from thin air about sharon's "evil intentions" |
I have to say I am rather insulted, given that I searched the net for some time trying to prove myself wrong, that in fact the IDF had investigated matters, and I didn't. You are all yet to prove to me that those targets were legitimate. It seems the only proof we have is the soldier's word of mouth. In any Western Army that would demand an investigation.
I also posted a source from the Israeli Centre for Human Rights, which noone responded to. I am still awaiting a response to the second half, and most crucial part, of that document. Namely, the allegations made by the Israeli Centre for Human Rights that Israeli police and Army personnel persistently ignore human rights violations against the Palestinian people.
I have also failed to see anyone comment on Kofi Annan's recent condemnation of Israeli use of force.
These are not "allegations from thin air", it's quite disgusting that you say that. If you watched the news, read the newspapers (from many countries including Israel), you would see that these allegations have been made for years by very respected people the world over, including Israel.
Secondly:
| quote: | | i find it most disturbing that in the scenerio you presented the mear thought of committing that kind of act agiants innocent civilians would cross your mind. it would never ever come through my mind. |
How can you honestly say that? At least tenor has the honesty, as do I, to admit that in such a situation I might have done the same thing. Evil minds are developed, not born, in my opinion.
| quote: | | we can bring ample, real, factual, evidence in support of our postions is a lot more than what i can say about you guys. I have noticed that none of the allegations that us, the israelis, put forth are being defended. no one has brought any arguement as to disprove that arafat is a terrorist |
Again, I find this insulting. You have failed to reply to my comments, or rather those of the Israeli Centre for Human Rights, or those of Kofi Annan, and you failed to even mention the British peace protestors that were shot at two days ago, including the BBC newscrew.
Secondly, your last sentence "no one has brought any arguement as to disprove that arafat is a terrorist" is an obvious sign of your way of thinking. Noone has yet in this thread taken Arafat's side. This is a debate between people in the middle, and people on the Israeli side. However, the Israelis find it much easier to brand us Arafat-supporters. You yourself have implied this, as have others, on numerous occasions. I'll dig up quotes if need be.
Lastly, I do not need to prove Arafat's innocence, for I take no sides in this conflict. You however, should prove Sharon's innocence if you are to take his side. So far, you have failed to do so. Showing the IDF's charter does not prove a single thing. You seem to think this is "proof":
"i can quote many israeli cabinet members that they have no intention of occupying palestinain land"
Slag off my sources all you want. But bare this in mind: The Israeli Centre for Human Rights have nothing to be won by criticising their own police and defence force. Kofi Annan has nothing to gain from condemning Israel's use of force. Can you say the same of Israeli Cabinet Member or the Israeli Defence Force?
"it is my philsophy when comparing two sides of ANY issue there is to the most extent ALWAYS a better/more valid side to be on"
Which is the right side, the Loyalists or the Provisionals?
They are both terrorists.
I think your response to this should provide some intriguing revelations. |
|
|
| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
I have to say I am rather insulted, given that I searched the net for some time trying to prove myself wrong, that in fact the IDF had investigated matters, and I didn't. You are all yet to prove to me that those targets were legitimate. It seems the only proof we have is the soldier's word of mouth. In any Western Army that would demand an investigation.
|
let me alieviate your hurt from my "insult". my quote as to the sharon is implied about attacks on his personality, and his intentions, comments such as thes:
"sharon is a psycho"
"he is ready to kill all the palestinians"
"he doesnt want a palestinian country"
there are many more i would find here if i take more time to search.
sharon does not have complete control over the IDF, so i fail to see why blaming it all on him is valid. actions the IDF take is controlled by cabinet meetings that hold politicians for all sides of israelis parliment.
| quote: |
I also posted a source from the Israeli Centre for Human Rights, which noone responded to. I am still awaiting a response to the second half, and most crucial part, of that document. Namely, the allegations made by the Israeli Centre for Human Rights that Israeli police and Army personnel persistently ignore human rights violations against the Palestinian people.
|
agian if you looked at my post you could see that if i were to look at israel alone then yes i would consider taking proper action to make sure these violations not happen BUT when we are comparing this to the civil liberty violations taken by the PLO, israel by far holds the upper hand. this thread is all about the conflict between the two parties. this is why we are here to justify israels actions agianst the PLO and to show you which side is better (comparing). if you want to open a thread critizising israel alone do so, i have some things to say there as well (like not accepting, jews from the reformed religion as true jews).
| quote: |
I have also failed to see anyone comment on Kofi Annan's recent condemnation of Israeli use of force.
|
check out the recent UN resilution on the mid-east:
http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/2002/res1402e.pdf
they condemn terrorist acts too. i ask you which came first, the suicide bombings or the incursion into ramallah as defensive response? they mention getting out of rammallah incedent, israel came in there only as a response after this weeks suicide bombings, fact, they werent in there before. how can you condemn both parties equally?
| quote: |
How can you honestly say that? At least tenor has the honesty, as do I, to admit that in such a situation I might have done the same thing. Evil minds are developed, not born, in my opinion.
|
sorry i am honestly telling the truth. me, personaly, if faced in a situation such as losing my life over a piece of land (no matter how important the land - or ideals they stand for) would rather pack up my bags and move to someplace that stands for what i belive in. i am only willing to lose my life as defense for my immediate family and fighting for the freedom of humanity. these are my views, i never said you have to agree.
| quote: |
Secondly, your last sentence "no one has brought any arguement as to disprove that arafat is a terrorist" is an obvious sign of your way of thinking. Noone has yet in this thread taken Arafat's side. This is a debate between people in the middle, and people on the Israeli side.
However, the Israelis find it much easier to brand us Arafat-supporters. You yourself have implied this, as have others, on numerous occasions. I'll dig up quotes if need be.
Lastly, I do not need to prove Arafat's innocence, for I take no sides in this conflict.
|
this is where the circular arguments come from... so by not needing to prove arafats innocence what do you mean, what does that tell me? i just want you to ellaborate. so by taking no sides in this conflicts do you imply that they are EQUALLY at fault?
| quote: |
"it is my philsophy when comparing two sides of ANY issue there is to the most extent ALWAYS a better/more valid side to be on"
Which is the right side, the Loyalists or the Provisionals?
|
i lost you there, can you ellaborate (not an attack agianst you, i just dont understand)
| quote: |
They are both terrorists.
|
i fail to see it as such. and if so there is a greater wieght of terrorism on one side.
im sorry to keep this rather short, although i would much rather be here writing about this, i have some pre/post labs to write up for a class. |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
| quote: | let me alieviate your hurt from my "insult". my quote as to the sharon is implied about attacks on his personality, and his intentions, comments such as thes:
"sharon is a psycho"
"he is ready to kill all the palestinians"
"he doesnt want a palestinian country"
there are many more i would find here if i take more time to search.
sharon does not have complete control over the IDF, so i fail to see why blaming it all on him is valid. actions the IDF take is controlled by cabinet meetings that hold politicians for all sides of israelis parliment.
|
Of course Sharon is not personally responsible, but that's aside the point. It is these soldiers who you are entrusting to invade Palestine. I am explaining that there is overwhelming controversy all over the world regarding both Sharon and the IDF, and I seriously doubt that this has failed to raise even a shadow of doubt in your mind that this mission would turn out catastrophic. If it hasn't, then I'm afraid to say your faith in Sharon and the IDF is blind faith.
| quote: | | agian if you looked at my post you could see that if i were to look at israel alone then yes i would consider taking proper action to make sure these violations not happen BUT when we are comparing this to the civil liberty violations taken by the PLO, israel by far holds the upper hand. this thread is all about the conflict between the two parties. this is why we are here to justify israels actions agianst the PLO and to show you which side is better (comparing). if you want to open a thread critizising israel alone do so, i have some things to say there as well (like not accepting, jews from the reformed religion as true jews). |
Well I'm glad you agree there is a major cause for concern. Unlike you, I am not prepared to say Israel have the upper hand. I have heard predominantly bad things about the IDF, and I suspect there are many things we don't know about the IDF, espescially given that they shoot at Western newscrews.
It is one thing to justify the deaths thus far, but please respect that invading Palestine is an entirely different ball game. You are talking about millions of lives here, not one or two. You can justify the odd unfortunate civilian death in the fight against terrorism, but you must respect that when you're going into all out war, millions of lives hang in the balance. Are you absolutely sure the boys you are sending in are responsible people, and that Sharon is a man genuinely of good intention?
I am far from convinced of either of those things.
| quote: | check out the recent UN resilution on the mid-east:
http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/2002/res1402e.pdf
they condemn terrorist acts too. i ask you which came first, the suicide bombings or the incursion into ramallah as defensive response? they mention getting out of rammallah incedent, israel came in there only as a response after this weeks suicide bombings, fact, they werent in there before. how can you condemn both parties equally? |
I don't condemn them equally, but I condemn them both to such an extent that I won't take either side. This sentence particularly jumped out at me:
"they condemn terrorist acts too"
This is true, but like I said earlier, you can't keep falling back on this response. The allegations by Israeli and International bodies against both the IDF and Sharon are serious. They are being committed of serious crimes.
If I were to murder a man in cold blood, would I be right to defend myself by saying "hey look at Hitler, he killed 6 million jews"?
The IDF are being accused by the Israeli Centre for Human Rights of ignoring frequent persecution towards Palestinians. Others in the media accuse them of recklessly shooting at civilians, and some say individuals in the IDF have committed acts of murder.
I cannot condemn both equally, but nor can I support the actions of either side. It is just like the Loyalists and the Provisionals. Some would say the terror the Loyalists inflicted on Northern ireland lasted for generations, others would say the Provisionals have used particularly disgusting methods of terror. Both are wrong to such an extent that I could never support either side's actions. The same situation exists in Israel.
| quote: | | sorry i am honestly telling the truth. me, personaly, if faced in a situation such as losing my life over a piece of land (no matter how important the land - or ideals they stand for) would rather pack up my bags and move to someplace that stands for what i belive in. i am only willing to lose my life as defense for my immediate family and fighting for the freedom of humanity. these are my views, i never said you have to agree. |
Until you've been there, you can never promise these things.
Like I say, I believe a psycho is made, not born.
Here's an example we were given in our Psychology class. We were asked to name 3 mass murderers in history. Someone mentioned the texas tower shooter, another mentioned the Dunblane school killer in scotland, and another mentioned Hitler. On the spot, our lecturer was challenged to find a link. (I'm going from memory here, so bare with me). Firstly, all had had a strict father. Hitler was barely emotional after his father's death (in stark contrast to the death of his mother), Charles Whitman's father was very strict, and a wifebeater. I can't remember much about the Dunblane killer, but apparently his upbringing was strict. Secondly, all seemingly realised their views were whacky, but seeked to reinforce and support their own views. Hitler, for example, wrote Mein Kampf, a book which contained anti-semitic material and basically vented his anger. Charles Whitman kept diaries of his own whacky views, including plotting his massacre. The dunblane killer had written to the council, the newspaper, and around the local press. Thirdly, all had faced major rejection in their lives. Hitler, a budding young artist, was rejected from the Vienna Arts Academy - twice. This left him very bitter, for all his life art had been his only real talent. Whitman was demoted to the rank of Private after causing fights, and was kicked out of the Army college. They threatened to expel him from the Army. The Dunblane killer had been removed from his position in the Scouts after numerous parents became concerned over his approach to children.
Tell me, if these men were all just "born" as nutters, and were destined to be nutters whatever path they took, then how come they shared similar experiences which "made" their mental condition. Seems like way too big a coincidence to me. Given enough time, I could find more examples.
Until you've lived the lives these people have lived, you haven't a clue how you'd react. You evidently havn't been exposed to the criteria which "make" a psycho.
| quote: | | this is where the circular arguments come from... so by not needing to prove arafats innocence what do you mean, what does that tell me? i just want you to ellaborate. so by taking no sides in this conflicts do you imply that they are EQUALLY at fault? |
No, but I imply that both are at ENOUGH fault that I could not side with either. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.
| quote: | | i lost you there, can you ellaborate (not an attack agianst you, i just dont understand) |
You were telling me that in every issue there is to the most extent a right side. I presented a real life issue and asked you which side you thought was "most right".
| quote: | | i fail to see it as such. and if so there is a greater wieght of terrorism on one side. |
There may well be greater attrocities committed by either side, this is something many will disagree on.
But one thing is certain, both sides (Loyalists and Provisionals) have committed decades of terrorism. They are both responsible for bombing civilians solely due to their religion, and designing bombs with the sole purpose of exacting as many civilian casualties as possible.
In this instance, I would disagree with your view that in every issue there is a side that is "more right". Both sides are wrong and I could never support either. I feel the same about Israel.
Didn't you earlier on say that terrorism is "never justifiable"?
Then would you admit that neither of these terrorist organisations are a single bit right, let alone "more right" than the other? |
|
|
| Sabih |
| this is some of the worst bull ive read yet... facts are israelis dont wanna give back what was spoonfed to them wrongly. and the media here in the us is zionist crap. |
|
|
| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
Of course Sharon is not personally responsible, but that's aside the point. |
Please discrediting the chosen leader of a democratic people (which by the way let me tell you was elected by record breaking numbers.. I think it was around 65%.. someone correct me if you know exactly... in Israel, no previous canidate in history won so many precent of the votes before) is insulting to your intelligence. The fact is you may not agree with him, you may not like him, you may think he is a bad person, but this guy does reperesnt the people of Israel. Their system of government is based basically on the same British concept, so if you don't think it is repersentative enough, the same must apply to Britian. Plus if you think he is a war criminal, it is a tradition to wait till the man is out of command to conduct trails against him, not while he is trying to serve his country. Again an overwhelming majority of Israelis are behind their leader with this new round of conflict.
I understand your points EB, they are very well intentioned. But the fact is that I think you are still misguided. I still do not see why you distrust the IDF so much, what have they told you that was a lie?
You have to understand (I will make this argument for the nth time) Israel is a democracy. Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister (again based on your parilmentry system.. you know better then anyone this guy has not enough control, especially due to the fact that in Israeli politics we do not have two parties, but primarly two, and then a bunch of smaller ones), he can be hoisted in a minute when his coalition breaks down with a vote of no confidence. If you have a problem with understand Israel is a democracy say so now, and I will try and re-inforce this concept with you.
The IDF is under control of the government and is subserviant to the will of the people, again like your Royal Forces. The IDF has laws which it must follow and meet, violations are met in either military or civil court as appropriate, sometimes the supreme court as well.
You say you hear all the time of the many, many humanitarian violations from external sources such as the Israel Human Rights Center. Now here is an interesting point, as in instances such as HRW and other monitor groups you can notice something very, very funny. Again I will say that they are trying to do a noble cause, but they are not as 'independent' or 'netrual' as you think and for this reason:
I have never seen them critize the Palestinians extensively for Human Rights Violations imposed on their own people.
I do not see them condemn the attacks of Palestinian terrorist on innocent civilians.
I do not see them condemn the fact that the terrorist make use of 'civilian' shields, take hostages for shelter (current case in the church if you heard about it in the news.. where is the outcry??).
I do not see the fact that their 'combatants' sport no military uniform, but dress and blend in civilian clothing.
I do not see extensive condemnations of illegal arms smuggling, and improper use of force or resistance.
I do not see condemnations when Israeli soldiers fall into the hands of Palestinians and are lynched and tortured.
I do not see condemnations of the use of non-combatant ambulances for the passage of combatants, weapons, and other military devices.
Fair, I will say this again, the IDF is not 100% perfect. There will be murders, there will be direct killings of clearly innocent civilians. These are a rareity, and when reported will have an investigation conduct (again I will refer you to the web site in my previous post, you being a hebrew speaking Israeli citizen can have access to these documents do to the new freedom of information act passed a couple of years ago in Israel_). But the thing is I see extensive condemnations of the Israeli side, yet not a word (such as the Israel Human Rights Watch site you sent) about the violations commited by the other side. Even you admit that the Palestinians have made more violations, altough you believe Israel has had there fair share to disprove their 'goodness', so I ask you where are the condemnation of the Palestinians..according to your own words and following this logical argument you should be seeing more of them then Israeli condemnations.
The problem is I have a hard time seeing the intentions of these so called 'pacificst and human rights watchers', when they just go the other day to visit Arafat and kiss him all over, and help sneak out known and all but convicted terrorist out of his compound.
Again I have already stated my thoughts and explinations regarding the 'BBC incident', perhaps you might want to read through it again. What was the press doing in a closed area? And why is a war scene the place to hold a peace rally?? Can they not understand the gravity of the situation? A mass-gather in the middle of a war scene? For god's sake man.
The IDF is a military force under a democracy. It is a professional army, and has laws which it tries to obey and follow. Again you can compare other Western Nations military forces to those of Israel -they are all very much in common. The British forces, the American forces, the German, the French they all follow the same template. They all are armies with stirct discipline and orders in a democracy. This is not to say they are perfect, far from it they are no police, but they are the best armies this world has seen yet regarding their morality and humanity, and that is saying something. You will see many condemnations of these armies in use by the said human rights group as well, but rarely those of their enemies (where were the condemnations of Taliban using civilan uniforms, or those for Septmeber 11? How about when they lynched the US serviceman? All I heard where complaints about some beach resort called X-ray).
I hope this illustrates my points, the IDF is up to par with all the world's army if not even superior in preventing and inflicting humane violations due to its long exposure to such low intensity conflicts. Again compare the civilian death on the Palestinian side (again this is hard to do as the Palestinians inflate these numbers, claiming all those who are non-secuirty offical as civilians.. when indeed some are sucidie bombers, other hamas, and so on... not to mention their own civilians which they kill by acciedent many a time) to those of previous conflicts, the Balkans, Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, you will find these numbers ridiciolously small and no big fuss was made over the other incidents (again that doesn't make it right, but I am pointing out Israel may just be more experienced in such conflicts and therefore more apt not to kill people).
Israel understand your points, the more innocent they kill, the more the hate grows on the other side. Even though the hate is not primarly from this reason it does grow and foster. It is against Israel's every interest (noting the fact that they will not commit genoicide, or expell all the Palestinians) to cause as least harm and instigation into the Palestinians. The Israelis are smart and they know this and therefore try to minimize casualties.
Aslo I will note this: In this recent conflict, the one of the past few days, NO PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN HAS BEEN KILLED!! (I'm shouting because even I am shocked at such restraint.. perhaps it show the turth behind my statement?) Yet you go on and on about how Israel is endangering the lives of 3.5 million Palestinians. On the flip side several dozens of innocent Israelis have been killed durning the past few days, no moral out cry here from the world.
I will also add the final point. This is a war of self-defense. You must understand this is a war imposed on Israel - they are using the military as a last means because they know exactly all to well from experience WAR IS HELL. But this is self-defense and if you can't see that, and you can't see the difference from aggressor and defender then I got a lot more teaching for you.
Ok one more point here.. what was it.. hmm, I don't know I forgot, it was a good one anyway.. oh well, to the physcology.
I also take a keen interest in this field, and I will have to disagree with you on that premise that you are not born a pyshco. I subscribe to the Psycho-Bio-Social model of pyschology of many disorders. Which as you know basically means people are born with a certain biological disposition to psychological disorders triggered by certain events in one's (or ones event have a greater likelyhood of triggering) life, and the society they live in help develop or prevent these disorders.
The fact is there are people that are 100% biologically born with a psychological disorder.. if you go back 40 years, you can read homosexuality as one of these, but they took that out. Altought these are rare they can happen. If you are born normal though, I subscribe primarly to the Behaviouralist school of thought though.
And again you come from the premise that people stole their land.. or they had to move and such. But you will see that the people who are blowing thesmelves up are around 16-20 years old. That means they were hear since the last real Israeli war of 76 - they were not rellocated, and they did not suffer the abuse of war. What they did suffer was living in the hell hole that Palestine is (because they divert funds to terrorism not their domestic policies), and incitement. Again I will refer you to the clever point that Tom Friedman made in the article I posted. There are millions more people living in even more dire and extremely taxing situations on their lives, yet they do not resort to suicide bombings. So you must understand that altought their despair does play a factor, it is the education, hate, and incitement that they are taught that leads them into this path.
Yoepsu
damn its late |
|
|
| tenor |
| quote: | | Nevertheless i dont see nor difference between things that happened 10 and 1000 years ago. It leads to the question: Wheres the border and who decides? But again that isnt necessary for my argumenation. |
Obviously the jews decide.
| quote: | "The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPT for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." - Ben-Gurion, feb 7 1948, addressing the Mapai council. (source: Benny Morris, The birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949) "
As i see, history for you is based on quotes. That only counts. We have many facts who contradcit those quotes though. |
No, I quoted that since you said that Ben-Gurion wanted to do it diplomatically, and not fighting.
| quote: | | The Decleration of Independence already posted here by Izzy, i think, shows us that Israel DOES want peace, the fact that the Arabs launched war shows us that they didnt (dont?). Those are facts, too. Another fact is that teh jews officially agreed on the partiotion plan, whereas the Arabs didnt. |
What would you do if suddenly thousands of foreign people came to your land, lived there for a while and then declared 'this is out country now'? I would definitely NOT accept such a thing either.
| quote: | | Lame. You came with quotes, I came with quotes. Quotes remain quotes right? |
i didnt see any quotes on www.aish.com. rather, a very orthdox jewish site trying to justify israels position. arguing with the help of sites like that is like reading pravda when soviet union still existed and thinking that its the truth.
| quote: | On April 23, 1948 Jamal Husseini, acting chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee (AHC), told the UN Security Council:
"The Arabs did not want to submit to a truce... They preferred to abandon their homes, belongings and everything they possessed." |
Preferred? With just a little nudge from the Israelis.. You cannot deny the fact that Israelis drove the arabs out of their homes.
| quote: | | I repeat. If there was no war launched in 1948 we wouldnt have this refugee problem right now. |
Really? Do you know that there were 400000 refugees already on the move when the war started? Do you remember Deir Yassin? It happened (9-10 of april, 1948) before the war started (15 may 1948).
Arafat is a piece of , I've said it before. Javier Solana proposed yesterday that both Arafat and Sharon step down and let other people try to negotiate. I'm inclined to think that it might be a step in the right direction.. |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
Yoepus, just because a man has been democratically elected it does not clear his name.
Israel has consistently elected right wing nationalist ex generals.
Secondly, you counter the evidence I put forward with "they are an army under a democracy".
This does not clear their name.
I'd still like you to make reference to the allegations from the Israeli Centre for Human Rights. Not a single person has responded to these extremely serious allegations.
| quote: | | I understand your points EB, they are very well intentioned. But the fact is that I think you are still misguided. I still do not see why you distrust the IDF so much, what have they told you that was a lie? |
They havn't told me lies, they've just shot children, newscrews, peace protestors. I do not trust these men.
| quote: | | The IDF is under control of the government and is subserviant to the will of the people, again like your Royal Forces. The IDF has laws which it must follow and meet, violations are met in either military or civil court as appropriate, sometimes the supreme court as well. |
This is all well and good on paper, but the Israeli Centre for Human Rights seem to think it's a heap of . Like you said yourself earlier, why would any Army want to shot at the press? Something to hide? If British troops shot at the press I can tell you now that it would be a national outrage. Same in America. That this hasn't even moved you shows the state of Israeli democracy. What's the point in freedom of press if you refuse to accept the wording of Kofi Annan of the Israeli Centre for Human Rights?
| quote: | | Fair, I will say this again, the IDF is not 100% perfect. There will be murders, there will be direct killings of clearly innocent civilians. These are a rareity, and when reported will have an investigation conduct (again I will refer you to the web site in my previous post, you being a hebrew speaking Israeli citizen can have access to these documents do to the new freedom of information act passed a couple of years ago in Israel_). |
Sorry but I accept none of this purely on your say-so. I searched the net, and searched their site. Nowhere did I see that any killings had been investigated.
You don't seem to get the concept of investigations. When an "armed" man is killed, it means the soldiers say he was armed. Without an investigation we just have to hope that these same soldiers who shoot at British peace protestors and news crews are telling the truth (I have seen the footage on the news first hand, ask anyone else from the UK if you think I'm making this up).
If you don't do this, you can only ever hope to catch them red handed. But given the evidence that Israeli authorities turn a blind eye to such incidents, it's obvious why you're under the illusion this is "rare".
| quote: | | Even you admit that the Palestinians have made more violations, altough you believe Israel has had there fair share to disprove their 'goodness', so I ask you where are the condemnation of the Palestinians..according to your own words and following this logical argument you should be seeing more of them then Israeli condemnations. |
There's no need for me to prove Palestinian terrorism, because we all agree it happens.
Where there is dispute is the level of wrongdoing committed by Israel. But every time I try to bring this up or provide sources, we get back onto Arafat and his boys. How convenient.
| quote: | | Aslo I will note this: In this recent conflict, the one of the past few days, NO PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN HAS BEEN KILLED!! (I'm shouting because even I am shocked at such restraint.. perhaps it show the turth behind my statement?) |
Israeli tanks shoot at Peace Protestors two days ago: (video footage)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/19050..._guerrin_vi.ram
Note: If you have a 56k that may take a while to load. However, if it's a cable modem, it should take less than a minute (mine did), so I urge you to watch it.
You may be able to prove Arafat's a bastard, but that doesn't clear the IDF of very serious allegations made by Israeli authorities. Both sides will end up discussing peace anyway, it's just a matter of how many thousand innocents will die before that happens.
I leave you with a letter sent to the BBC, which can be viewed here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/ta...000/1908579.stm
"My family and home are in Ramallah, which has been reoccupied since the early morning of Friday, 29 March. A population of 120,000: young and old, children and women, are under military siege; the sound of shooting tanks, heavy arms and missiles are heard throughout the city constantly. Curfew is imposed on people which means they cannot leave their homes for any reason not even to buy food or medicine or to go to the doctors. Leaving one's home means that you could be shelled or shot by the army. Being under military siege also means that the army can enter your home, tear it apart, kick you out of it and take over your home, eating your food, sleeping in your beds, stealing your jewellery and money and defecating in your sinks - that's right your sinks!
Many people are already suffering shortage of food, milk, bread, medicines, as well as kerosene and gas in these horrible, cold weather conditions especially since there is no electricity and water. A group of families as large as 40 and 60 people are locked in an area less than 120 square meters with children, and elderly while the occupation army has taken over the rest of their building. In other circumstances, the army takes over the house or flat and locks the whole family in one room forbidding them to go to the bathroom without asking for permission.
The Israeli forces are using civilians as human shields while heavy shooting and shelling is destroying all sorts of buildings: official, cultural, commercial, apartments, churches and mosques, health and medical facilities. The ambulances are not allowed to evacuate the wounded from the wreckage of buildings causing many of the wounded to bleed to death. Since Easter Sunday journalists have been prohibited from entering Ramallah. We are kept in touch with some of what is happening there from our friends and families and from local reporters who are risking their lives to keep us updated"
Susan, Jerusalem |
|
|
| tenor |
yoepus:
how can you know there are no civilian deaths yet? There are plenty of dead bodies on the street of Ramallah, and not even medical personnel are allowed to go and get them off the street.. Oh yah, I also heard that a christian priest died in bethlehem, but have only seen it in indymedia, not mainstream media..
ps. even if Sharon was elected by the Israeli people, he still is as much of a terrorist as Arafat.. He was in command of Unit 101 in the 50's. 1953, Unit 101 entered the refugee camp of El-Bureig, near Gaza, the official history records 50 deaths, other sources 15-20.. Major-General Vagn Bennike, the UN commander, reported that "bombs were thrown" by Sharon's men "through the windows of huts in which the refugees were sleeping and, as they fled, they were attacked by small arms and automatic weapons". October 1953, Unit 101 did an infamous attack on the village of Qibya - 45 houses in ruins, 69 civilians dead. Two thirds were women and children. In 1970, while in command of the southern command of IDF, Sharon ordered a bulldozing of hundreds of homes in Gaza City, to make roads wide enough for tanks. He also was in command of the 1982 assault on Lebanon - the campaign included the infamous massacres of Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, after which the Lebanese government counted 762 bodies, with estimated 1200 more buried by relatives.. Children, babies, women (some pregnant), old people - some were mutilated or disemboweled before or after their death. The official Israeli inquiry into this stated 'It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for having disregarded to take this danger into account when he decided to have the Phalangists enter the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the Minister of Defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the Defense Minister was charged'. Sharon refused to resign. How much longer must we wait before getting him into Hague? |
|
|
| evil_bastard |
When those Canadian Airborne peacekeepers in Somalia in 1993 were caught torturing and burning a Somali boy, the ENTIRE airborne division of the Canadian Army was DISBANDED.
That's over a thousand men. Other regiments were given individual airborne units, but no longer would the "canadian paratrooper" exist.
If the Israelis used the same discipline as the Canadians, the IDF probably wouldn't have any front line units left! |
|
|
|
|
