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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 14)
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| Yoepus |
I just read the most recent Thomas Friedman article in the New York time. What he has said, is exactly what I feel, but he types it better. Anyway, I copied the article here from
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/o...31FRIE.html
If you have a minute it is very interesting to read, and comes from a true peace-loving mid east expert.
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Suicide Lies
By Thomas Friedman
The outcome of the war now under way between the Israelis and Palestinians is vital to the security of every American, and indeed, I believe, to all of civilization. Why? Quite simply because Palestinians are testing out a whole new form of warfare, using suicide bombers strapped with dynamite and dressed as Israelis — to achieve their political aims. And it is working.
Israelis are terrified. And Palestinians, although this strategy has wrecked their society, feel a rising sense of empowerment. They feel they finally have a weapon that creates a balance of power with Israel, and maybe, in their fantasies, can defeat Israel. As Ismail Haniya, a Hamas leader, said in The Washington Post, Palestinians have Israelis on the run now because they have found their weak spot. Jews, he said, "love life more than any other people, and they prefer not to die." So Palestinian suicide bombers are ideal for dealing with them. That is really sick.
The world must understand that the Palestinians have not chosen suicide bombing out of "desperation" stemming from the Israeli occupation. That is a huge lie. Why? To begin with, a lot of other people in the world are desperate, yet they have not gone around strapping dynamite to themselves. More important, President Clinton offered the Palestinians a peace plan that could have ended their "desperate" occupation, and Yasir Arafat walked away. Still more important, the Palestinians have long had a tactical alternative to suicide: nonviolent resistance, à la Gandhi. A nonviolent Palestinian movement appealing to the conscience of the Israeli silent majority would have delivered a Palestinian state 30 years ago, but they have rejected that strategy, too.
The reason the Palestinians have not adopted these alternatives is because they actually want to win their independence in blood and fire. All they can agree on as a community is what they want to destroy, not what they want to build. Have you ever heard Mr. Arafat talk about what sort of education system or economy he would prefer, what sort of constitution he wants? No, because Mr. Arafat is not interested in the content of a Palestinian state, only the contours.
Let's be very clear: Palestinians have adopted suicide bombing as a strategic choice, not out of desperation. This threatens all civilization because if suicide bombing is allowed to work in Israel, then, like hijacking and airplane bombing, it will be copied and will eventually lead to a bomber strapped with a nuclear device threatening entire nations. That is why the whole world must see this Palestinian suicide strategy defeated.
But how? This kind of terrorism can be curbed only by self-restraint and repudiation by the community itself. No foreign army can stop small groups ready to kill themselves. How do we produce that deterrence among Palestinians? First, Israel needs to deliver a military blow that clearly shows terror will not pay. Second, America needs to make clear that suicide bombing is not Israel's problem alone. To that end, the U.S. should declare that while it respects the legitimacy of Palestinian nationalism, it will have no dealings with the Palestinian leadership as long as it tolerates suicide bombings. Further, we should make clear that Arab leaders whose media call suicide bombers "martyrs" aren't welcome in the U.S.
Third, Israel must tell the Palestinian people that it is ready to resume talks where they left off with Mr. Clinton, before this intifada. Those talks were 90 percent of the way toward ending the occupation and creating a Palestinian state. Fourth, U.S. or NATO troops must guarantee any Israeli-Palestinian border.
"The Spanish Civil War was the place where the major powers all tested out their new weapons before World War II," said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi. "Well, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today is the Spanish Civil War for the 21st century. A big test is taking place of whether suicide terrorism can succeed as a strategy for liberation. It must be defeated, but that requires more than a military strategy."
The Palestinians are so blinded by their narcissistic rage that they have lost sight of the basic truth civilization is built on: the sacredness of every human life, starting with your own. If America, the only reality check left, doesn't use every ounce of energy to halt this madness and call it by its real name, then it will spread. The Devil is dancing in the Middle East, and he's dancing our way. |
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| cweb |
from a true peace-loving expert?
Perhaps, but this text is not a good example for that because his comment is way one-sided. Someone who is a leader in the peace-process will look at both sides.
suicide bombings are a new tactic, and a very good one (when you can say that:( ). But answer me one question: What else have the Palastinians? They have not that big of an arsenal of weapons as say Iraq. They have not a free-structured government, their government is not free, they cant do what they want. so almost everything is not "helathy" including the economie, school and the military.
and to say that the palestinians are not "desperate" is just plain wrong and it shows me that this man is not that peace-loving stud you think he is.
God dammit UNO send some troops in there and make a free palestina.
that clinton plan was not aceeptable, it was better than the situation now, but it still wasnt a free palestina! arafat would have been asasssinated by his own men in less than a day.
I have given up to think there will be solution in this mess. The United Nations need to go there and draw lines! Sorry but the people there need to live under a protectorat a few years, and thats including israel to calm things down. Can someone explain why the USA didnt agree (and put there VETO in) to send UN-troops there?
The rest of the wordl agrees to send UN troops there but the ing USA needs to mess up all that again, it!
But with the current situation they need to reconsider their opinion else they will have a HUGE problem with the arab world for years to come and their fight against terrorism will end in tragedy! |
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| evil_bastard |
"If you can't trust your own nation to protect you then who can you trust?"
Eh? I'm saying I not trust the leader of Israel to lead the Palestinian people.
a)Everyone knows how much they hate him. It would be the biggest provocation anyone has ever made in that area that I can think of. For a man to lead people who've waged war against him for generations is quite a tease.
b)I believe there is so much evidence against both the IDF and the Israeli police that I would not trust them. Their Generals, as we all know, are frequently right wing nationalists. Some of them are so right wing they are falling off the edge, they'd make Sharon look like a Socialist. Some of them have openly spoken of their hatred towards the Palestinians.
To summarise, I don't trust Sharon, his Army, or his Police, are fit to do the job. I suspect there are many individuals in the Israeli establishment with a genuine hatred towards Palestinians, and I think in the long term there is a real risk of disaster for the whole region if they are trusted to overrun their neighbouring population.
IF I could be convinced otherwise, I would be a lot more inclined to agree with an invasion. |
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| torontotrance |
| We need peace.....the instability is killing the oil price (which keep rising) and the world is tired of the war. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
"If you can't trust your own nation to protect you then who can you trust?"
Eh? I'm saying I not trust the leader of Israel to lead the Palestinian people. |
This operation is to protect the Israel population for suicide attacks. There is no mention of any occupation in the offical policy, nor do I think they will do it. My opinion is that they should invade, and let NATO or US forces as they said in their to occupy the area as Tom Friedman had pointed out above, after the Israeli disarm and destroy all the terrorist infrastructure in the area.
b)I believe there is so much evidence against both the IDF and the Israeli police that I would not trust them. Their Generals, as we all know, are frequently right wing nationalists. Some of them are so right wing they are falling off the edge, they'd make Sharon look like a Socialist. Some of them have openly spoken of their hatred towards the Palestinians.
| quote: | | To summarise, I don't trust Sharon, his Army, or his Police, are fit to do the job. I suspect there are many individuals in the Israeli establishment with a genuine hatred towards Palestinians, and I think in the long term there is a real risk of disaster for the whole region if they are trusted to overrun their neighbouring population. |
True, but clearly Arafat has not shown to be trust worthy either. Though I don't think any evidence I could bring would change your mind here as I believe you truly believe every Politician is untrustworthy. And yes BTW Sharon is a socialist.. duh.
| quote: | | IF I could be convinced otherwise, I would be a lot more inclined to agree with an invasion. |
Again I agree with you that re-occuping the territories with Israeli forces more then a couple weeks is not a good strategy. but I do believe this is an Israeli war, they should conduct the assult and invasion, and then should invite NATO and such (not UN, they never do anything but 'observe' and are useless) to police the Palestinians as they grow to be peaceful enough to live democratically and peaceful through self-determination side by side with Israel.
Furthermore (for the Swiss dud), if you think Thomas Friedman is one sided then you must not know much about him... go read his Bio somewhere. You will see that he is a Jew in orgin, but has lived and visit with many Arabs, and has won a coupld publishing awards and such. He is pretty balanced, the fact that he says he thinks the terrorist (Arafat) are to blame for this conflict does not mean he is unbalanced, but might be a repersentation of the truth.
Also he clearly pointed out the Palestinians never followed the route of non-violent protest especially after the templates of Ghandi existed, and the South African struggle was continuing to eventual success.
Yoepus
err ya |
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| Hell_Copter |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
b)I believe there is so much evidence against both the IDF and the Israeli police that I would not trust them. Their Generals, as we all know, are frequently right wing nationalists. Some of them are so right wing they are falling off the edge, they'd make Sharon look like a Socialist. Some of them have openly spoken of their hatred towards the Palestinians.
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that's no true... and even if it's true
did u know that yesterday in the incident in jerusalen where the bombed car exploded almost no one got hurt because a policeman bloked the way and lost his life??
don't u think that all his friends in the police station are now angry as hell because of his death?!?!
well i do, and i give them full backup and so does to the army
lots of soldiers lose their lives every day protecting us... so y shouldn't they be mad at the palastiniens
and another thing, papers that prooves Arafat participation is those terror events have been found
now the world can see that we are dealing with a disgusting creature that keep telling lies, all this bull he said about peace worth !!!! |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by cweb
But answer me one question: What else have the Palastinians? They have not that big of an arsenal of weapons as say Iraq. They have not a free-structured government, their government is not free, they cant do what they want. so almost everything is not "helathy" including the economie, school and the military.
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It is very simple to answer your question - Who says they should use any kind of millitary force at all?? Have Israel ever attacked the palestinian side with its millitary without a true and justified reason as terror-acts?? NO. even in the days when israel had no army and no state Arabs attacked them with terror, so if they have a millitary you think they should use it? for what?
seconedly they in theory have a free structured goevrment given to them by Israel and the UN (Or US, dont remember) in 1992, they are the ones decided to make it a dictaturship-like goverment, with no democracy and no elections, and no understanding of civil rights.
also talking about school & economy : this is the problem and its roots are in the Plalesttinian strategy to use lots of their money (and they have a lot of it, they recieve lots of money from Europe and USA, and arab countries) for Terror escpect then on their economy and civilians.
| quote: | | and to say that the palestinians are not "desperate" is just plain wrong and it shows me that this man is not that peace-loving stud you think he is. |
you missunderstood, he said that they are desperate but not by the occupation of terretories , but by their condtion that its root is in the PLO's kind of dictaturship. look, the same thing happend in russia with the kings (alexander the 3, nikolay the second), the people were poor and wanted to remove the goverment (sociavlizm), so the goverment used Antisimism as its policy , to make the civilians see the picture all wrong and attack Jews and not the ones that are truely have the blame...
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that clinton plan was not aceeptable, it was better than the situation now, but it still wasnt a free palestina! arafat would have been asasssinated by his own men in less than a day.
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ok....so if its right, what should israel do? wait until all his poeple will die and "SECRET" Araft would be able to make peace???
:p
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Can someone explain why the USA didn't agree (and put there VETO in) to send UN-troops there?
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yes, cause lots of CIA agents are all around Israel and the palestinins terretories, absorving what's going on, and they sure see the full picture and know that Israel is the "good" in lots of means, and sure can and need to defend their country by themselves, UN forse is . USA is the country that was involved in the current conflict more that any one else in the world.
the only thing makes me sad is that I posted a text above that is very similar to that article above form NY Times i was very triying to invest my best in it , but it seems that no one read it... and also a realy invested one by me some posts before ... but anyway, big thant to Yoepus and Izzi and TranceGiant - for protecting the truth.
and read www.debka.com - very interresting |
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| Eugene |
So, cweb, we've met again :)
As always, I will challenge your political views.
| quote: | suicide bombings are a new tactic, and a very good one (when you can say that:( ). But answer me one question: What else have the Palastinians? They have not that big of an arsenal of weapons as say Iraq. They have not a free-structured government, their government is not free, they cant do what they want. so almost everything is not "helathy" including the economie, school and the military.
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So are you condoning those suicide bombings, with your "apologetic" attitude? Violence against innocent civilians is NEVER justified.
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The rest of the wordl agrees to send UN troops there but the ing USA needs to mess up all that again, it!
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This is a great example of European level-headedness.
Why are you now blaming the USA?
The USA on numerous occasions brought both sides to the table of negotiations.
Needless to say, the USA also helped you Europeans after WWII (and beyond). Behold the anger of the Europeans biting the very hand that fed them. Pathetic... |
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| DJ-Energy |
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
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Yoepus u have to admit two things , otherwise i will definitely think you are manipulated with too much zionist propaganda or fake related news :
1-sharon is a psycho ready to kill all the palestinians
2-tsahal TARGETS innocent civilians as well
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sharon is a psycho?!?!!?
lol
and what is arafat?!!!?!?, an angel??
sharon has no plans on killing any innocent palestininans!!!!!
araft does!!.. |
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| DJ-Energy |
u know what?
the un troops
they are one sided anyway
remember that thing that was with the 3 guys who got kidnapped
they had it ALL on tape
but they wouldn't give it to israel |
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| Eugene |
Well, the UN is completely irrelevant at this point.
The UN is not serving a lot of useful purposes in the modern world.
It's just like the "League of Nations" that didn't prevent Hitler from starting the war.
Every country has its national interests, and so long as that's the case, the UN will be politely "bypassed" and ignored.
Look at the war in Iraq, in Yugoslavia, etc. There was NATO involvement, not UN involvement.
I realize it's pretty sad, but the UN is a little irrelevant when every country fights for its national interests. |
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| evil_bastard |
Do you people even find it possible to respond to a comment about Sharon without pointing the finger at Arafat?
Sharon is a bastard.
Typical response: And Arafat isn't?
I trust neither of these men to overpower the other's people.
There is a reason why this thread keeps going round in circles. Us 'lefties' say "Sharon has said this and this, the IDF have done this and this, and I don't trust them. Official bodies said this, Kofi Annan just said this, and I would need to be convinced of their innocence and competence before sanctioning their invasion of Palestine.
This response is always met with either: "and arafat is a saint?" or "so what, terrorism is worse".
This doesn't actually address the issue, and it's why we keep going round in circles. I agree we need someone better than Arafat in power there, but as soon as anyone mentions Sharon they're told to shut up and start slagging off Arafat.
This ignorance of Sharon and the IDF's actions must be stopped. I genuinely don't think half of you care about the innocent Palestinians. It is quite blatant in some cases. |
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