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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 5)
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View this Thread in Original format
| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
If you call the Palestinians terrorists , then the Israelis are terrorist too , don't they kill innocent civilians too ??
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When do Israelis kill innocent civilians???
It's the other way around, suicide bombers kill innocent Israelis.
:rolleyes: |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Inspector_Morse
Just wanted to take issue with this, since as far as I can see the statement is true, but only in so far as Israel will not agree to anything while Arafat is in control. Or is Arafat physically incapable of agreement? Pehaps so.
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its like going in a circle with arafat:
Does arafat have control over his people?
-> yes - then why doesnt terrorism end.
-> no - then why should israel have relations with him?
because he is the legitamite leader of his people
-> start at top
it goes in a circle.
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
Yoepus and Izzy , please stop quoting president Bush (who didn't know that the world and other countries existed before he was elected ) and/or other gov. institutions (CIA bla bla bla) . Like if the American gov. is a good exemple .
Everybody knows the USA supports blindly Israel because you know why (1-the strong jewish/zionist lobby rules America 2-Israel guarantees a military presence of the USA in the middle-east) .
Telling me Sharon is not the cause of the second intifida shows how much your opinion is biased (oh yeah i'm gonna trust that US senator's report whose political campaign has been financed by you-know-who) .
Give me guys instead REAL facts , why don't u quote what the European Union says ? or Russia , China , and all the other countries ?
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i can not argue with conspiricy theorists like you cause it is nearly impossible to prove. however to prove my point, no prob - i'd be glad to as it even further validates my claim (and dethrows your lie)
firstly the mitchell plan is a valid peice of information as it was completely backed and encouraged by the UN. im sorry that the majority senate leader of the USA, micthell's report doesnt appease you enough, even though BOTH sides agreed it was fair and just.
| quote: |
The Palestinian Authority had reaffirmed its total support of the conclusions and recommendation of the Mitchell Report.
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(taken from www.un.org)
next, allow me to quote Imad Faluji, the palestinian authority Communications Minister:
| quote: |
It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former US president and rejected American conditions"
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want more facts ? i can do even more research, the more i get into the stronger my position will seem.
now let me get into what pisses me off most about you guys here.
agian you can not compare both sides equally when we are dealing with terrorism. i dont even care as to why it even happens - or what festers it, no matter how "bad" israel has been, there is absolutely no reason to resort to terrorism. agian i'll have to say what me and yoepus have said time and time agian. Facing terrorism, israel has every right to defend itself as it see fit, as done by a democratic government run by the free will of its citizens. let me show you that the UN agrees with me
| quote: |
Resolution 55/158 adopted by the general assembly
Recalling all general assemble and security council resolutions on measures to eliminate international terrosim ... ... Stressing the need to strengthen further international cooperation between States and between international organizations and agencies, regional organizations and arrangements and the United Nations in order to prevent combat and eliminate terrorism in all its forms and manifestations, wherever and by whomsoever committed, in accordance with the principles of the Charter, international law and relevant international conventions.
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(http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/55/a55r158.pdf)
remind me agian why the palestinian cause is even remotely justified while acts of terror are being committed? right now i am not willing to sit down with any palestinian and talk peace while such acts are being thought about, constructed and originate from within the palestinian territories. for proof just look at any of the charters of any organiztion in the palestinian areas and compare to the charters of the nation of israel and the IDF. want more proof? heres some proving that, if not arafat directly himself, the palestinian authority is part of global terroism: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...he_mideast_fire
lets talk ending terror before we talk about anything else.
furthermore i feel the world (specifically the UN, EU and even the US to some extent) is a gigantic hypocrit for condemning israel for going into rammallah as a reponse to an obvious act of war perpatrated on israel on passover night in netanya. not only that taking no active part in trying to stop the terrorist acts as should be done, taken from the quote above. sure leave it to israel to do it all by itself :rolleyes: |
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| Eugene |
| quote: | Originally posted by FASTDJMP3
Everybody knows the USA supports blindly Israel because you know why (1-the strong jewish/zionist lobby rules America 2-Israel guarantees a military presence of the USA in the middle-east) .
Give me guys instead REAL facts , why don't u quote what the European Union says ? or Russia , China , and all the other countries ?
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Because you know as well as I (a Russian) that, just like the US is "blindly" for Israel, Russia is "blindly" for Arabs. That's how it is.
People in Russia are anti-Semitic and many of them hate Jews. Historically they've supported the Arabs, they were against the Iraq war, etc., etc. So you've got a weak argument there... |
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| Yoepus |
Look I do know how much clearer I can put this.
Arafat is the leader (symbol) of the Palestinian people.
Arafat's own apparatus have created terror, and direct assualt on innocent civilians. Arafat's own apparatus have been clearly linked with evidence (Karin A) to arms smuggling and violation of the Oslo agreement. Arafat has done 100% nothing in an attempt to reduce terrorism and destory the terrorist infrastructure with in his controled areas. Arafat has used his apparatus as staging points, terrorist safe houses, and arms depot (these being police stations).
Arafat's police have suppressed any voice of opposition against his rule, imprisoning political prisoners that have voice concern regarding his system of rule (check human rights watches for up to date reports on this). Arafat runs a police-state that harbors and support terrorism.
Conclusion, Arafat's regime must be toppled.
Arafat's police stations are bases of operations. Conclusion, Arafat's police stations must be destroyed.
Need more proof? Here this is from the recent raid on the compound of Arafat:
| quote: |
During IDF activity within the Mukata compound in Ramallah, many weapons used against IDF soldiers and Israeli civilians were found, and all this, under the eyes of the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority.
The weapons that were found are as follows:
An RPG launcher
43 RPG bombs
2 60 mm mortar bombs
22 Kalashnikov rifles
1 short Kalashnikov rifle
13 micro Kalashnikov rifles
Norwegian sniper weapons
A Barreta 762
9mm automatic Barreta rifles
An Arba-type assault rifle
3 PK
4 #26 fragmentation grenades
A Miller fragmentation grenade
A smoke grenade
A #400 gas grenade
128 commando knives
2 MAG action crates
30 5.56 action crates
3 crates of Kalashnikov ammunition
99 Kalashnikov magazines
30 pistol magazines
A Barreta magazine
35 M16 magazines
8 7.62mm magazines
5 9mm magazines
6 short M16 magazines
18 combat vests
5 bulletproof vests
24 telescopic sights
5 night-vision devices
Binoculars
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Need more proof, how about some pictures? Some Pictures
I do not see what a Police Station would need RPGs, fragmentation gernades, and other such equipement espeically when it violates Oslo accords.
You come based upon the philosophy that not 100% of the Police, and/or Police stations conduct and support terrorism. Therefore you believe Police stations should not be target (right?). Well this is just silly, the fact is if there are Police which are disobiedant they get fired, and they get orders to incite terrorism. Furthermore these police stations are apparatus of the regime which supports terrorism, therefore there destruction will not be missed.
Your argument is that these Police Stations would be used against terrorist if they were not destroyed; This is nice. However the Police stations have been intact from 1993-2000 and they have done little to do this. Israel has given up the fact that it wants a 100% results from the Palestinian side knowing that this is 'to hard' for the Palestinians to achieve. Instead they just want 100% effort. This means if you have 2 police station left, it wants to see you use those two police station the best extend possible to reduce terrorism.
This has not happened.. It goes more like this. Cease fire. Israel quits firing, terrorsim happens, no effort exerted by the Palestinians, boom 20 police stations left. Cease fire Israel quits firing, Palestinians do nothing, boom 18 police station left.
The expectations fall every time on the Israeli side, they understand you might not be able to be as effective with 18 police station as 20, but they just as for 100% effort. Why has Arafat not done this? Again he is a dictator, not fairly elect, and no elections upcoming, his Police Force is around 40,000 strong he can defend himself against any internal rebellion. Why has he not revised the Palestinian charter??? Why has he not gone on public TV and said in Arabic that sucide bombing is bad, and that the only way to achive peace is through diplomacy? The fact is Israel wants 100% effort, the Palestinains have not showed any! The USA backs Israel on this fully, they do not ask Arafat anymore to bring and end, they ask him to do more. But he doesn't every opprotunity he has he misses and makes it worse upon himself.
So if these police stations are not used as a true police force in the pursuit of law, and only as terrorist bases, their lose should not be missed. Is this hard for you to contemplate?
Or are you going to justify that Arafat is right in terrorism? Because the Police station reperesent Arafat and his power, and the Israeli aim is to stop this terror infrastructure. Rid Palestine of terrorism.
The problem lies with how each side precives one another, altough I would admit durning this war the Israeli side has not grown more peace like or sympathetic to the Arabs it is still how they teach their kids. Want to compare and constrast how each generation is preparing the future, and what lies one teaches it? Check out this source: Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace . Arafat has not done anything to change this, has not change text books, update maps, amended his charter, etc.
HE HAD YEARS to do this!! Its almost 10 years since Oslo now... why did he not do it then? He has had dozens of opprotunities, through peace, cease-fires, and security co-operation.
It is almost impossible to make a case for Arafat unless you use lies, and therefore it is hard to make a case for the apparatus that keep him in power and support terrorism, his police stations.
Again I will repeat, it is not like Israel has not tried all the other methods, Israel is resorting to violence as a last resort. And we have come to the end.
The simple solution is that nothing can change as long as this hate is incited, this anti-semitism is taught and festered in their areas. The Sharon plan only calls for the disruption and descruction of the terrorist infrastructure, however if you do not go in and occupy the area releving it with temporary peace and the will of law as a new government is formed that is rational englighted, and will give its 100% effort to the end of the violence and finding a just peace you can not go on.
It is sad that you back away from a fight that is right just because you are concerned how other oil producing brute dictatorships in the region might react. So Oil prices will go up, you are doing what is right. The simple fact is that Israel is the outpost of democracy in a region that is blantely hostile towards democracies. The free-world should not let its outpost fall because of fear. When it has done this it has betrayed its founding principles and foundations and has no longer become free.
Anyway.. my point is that you can not have a terrorist regime living next to a democractice country and tie the hands of this country behind her back as the terrorist punch her down. The only solution is violence.. all others have been tried and tested and failed. They leave this country with no option. But it looks like changing a terrorist regime into a democratic country doesn't seem all that bad of an idea to me... It is at least worth a shot even if it will not work.
Yoepus
Work harder: People on welfare depend on you. |
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| evil_bastard |
I'll put in bold what I'd like you to prove, because I think you're basing your opinions not on fact, as you earlier claimed, but on assumption or personal belief.
Arafat has done 100% nothing in an attempt to reduce terrorism and destory the terrorist infrastructure with in his controled areas
I'd really like to see some proof. I'm not going to accept sweeping and rather extreme statements like that straight off.
I know you will brand me as a conspiracy theorist, it's your only option left. If the IDF or the US govt are legitimate sources, then so are Arafat and his people, and if I bombard you with their propaganda, will you treat it with as much respect? If not, please state why, and back up any sweeping or extreme statement you make.
Arafat's police have suppressed any voice of opposition against his rule
I have underlined "any" because it is typical of the soundbites you're using.
Once again, you've just came out with this as if it's fact, but I know you have no proof.
What's ironic is that Israeli bombing is most likely the real reason he's gaining support, but that wouldn't have blended in well with your soundbite.
What really strikes me the most in all this is how easily people assume Arafat can stop terrorism. Areas of the country are in ruins, there is growing poverty, there is incredible anger at the Israelis who keep killing civilians. You tell him to keep his people under control, then you intimidate his people into attacking you. Don't you realise this is pretty childish? Arafat has limited resources. London was bombed consecutively for 4 years, and Britain are the 4th richest 'nation' in the world. 4 planes were hijacked in the world's richest country, a nation with 100,000 intelligence personnel operating around the globe who failed to predict it.
How can you catch a man with no criminal record, who is committing no crime, and who is seemingly a legitimate member of society?
Suicide bombers are not easy to catch. Britain have had bombs for 30 years and we've found it damn hard to stop. America recently felt the impact on Sept 11.
These suicide bombers let their bombs off inside Israel. This is a failure by Arafat to find and catch these people, and it's a failure of Sharon to find these people in his own territory. Some of these individuals would have been near impossible to catch if they had no criminal record and committed no suspicous activity, espescially with Israeli helicopters destroying police stations and turning the border into rubble.
I think it's a little narrow minded to offload all of the blame onto Arafat.
Another comment:
"Want to compare and constrast how each generation is preparing the future, and what lies one teaches it?"
I don't mean to get into a petty quoting match, but I think Inspector_Morse answered this question quite well when he said "it's very difficult for Arafat to publicly denounce the suicide bombings while Israel inflicts casualties on the Palestinians".
Many Palestinians, ordinary citizens, see the suicide bombings as justified. The saying goes, one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. These people would consider outspoken Israeli commanders and the IDF as terrorists, you might consider them freedom fighters. Arafat has guns pointed at him from all directions. He has two gangs on his back, terrorists and Sharon. When his people are so outraged at the Israelis that they accept suicide bombings, it's difficult for him to tell his own people, millions of them, to change their views. In fact I think his silence is wise, he does not seek popularity by praising their efforts, does he? |
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| Eugene |
For real, please let's keep those posts smaller!
Nobody feels like reading a huge-ass post.
My point: when people say "stop this cycle of violence," I want to ask: "What cycle?!" The violence has been coming from one side -- the Palestinians. Israel is defending itself against the suicide bombers (or terrorists, as you might call them -- who are no different from the terrorists that slammed the planes into WTC.) |
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| Dj_ExOn |
im sorry to hear this:( I hope UN and EU will sort this out quick.
im praying.. peace |
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| DamnDirtyApe |
I give up. It's impossible to win an argument with a fanatic.
Yoepus, Izzy, and Eugene - try and realize that there are two sides to every story. Don't automatically believe the propaganda of one side. |
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| evil_bastard |
Eugene, I guess you've missed the Palestinian children shot dead by Israeli M4 Carbines, the rubble that was once Palestinian homes, rocketed down by AH-1 helicopters, the tanks that loom over the West bank.
One has to wonder what drives people to blow themselves up in the name of politics, or to rejoice at the death of 3,000 people in New York and party in the street.
These people must have had some pretty awful experiences.
Think about it for christ's sake. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by evil_bastard
I'll put in bold what I'd like you to prove, because I think you're basing your opinions not on fact, as you earlier claimed, but on assumption or personal belief.
Arafat has done 100% nothing in an attempt to reduce terrorism and destory the terrorist infrastructure with in his controled areas
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to me it is enough, that ever since he is under siege he has said nothing to denounce terroism but yet has enough time to take interviews from christian amenpour.
| quote: |
I'd really like to see some proof. I'm not going to accept sweeping and rather extreme statements like that straight off.
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firstly let me say that all of yoepus's and my posts have had references to actual facts/evidence. i have not seen a single shread of any backing on any of your posts.
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I know you will brand me as a conspiracy theorist, it's your only option left. If the IDF or the US govt are legitimate sources, then so are Arafat and his people, and if I bombard you with their propaganda, will you treat it with as much respect?
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im sorry that i give more weightt to information coming from nations with freedom of press who are free to express and critize themselves freely :rolleyes: im sorry but arafat has complete control over his media and uses it to his advantage. when was the last time you ever read an article in the palestinian newspaper critizing arafat? critisizm on sharon happens daily in israeli press - which is a good and healthy thing. so are you implying you agree to the palestinian press who is oppressed from a dictatorial leader? not only that by yoepus and i have also give facts outside of the american/israeli govt/press, we have used charters, UN resalutions, quotes from officials, etc... which is more then i've seen from you
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What really strikes me the most in all this is how easily people assume Arafat can stop terrorism. Areas of the country are in ruins, there is growing poverty, there is incredible anger at the Israelis who keep killing civilians.
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that does not justify terrorism! nothing in the world does
and if what i understand from you is that arafat cant stop terrosim easily, then why are you blaming israel for doing it for him?
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You tell him to keep his people under control, then you intimidate his people into attacking you. Don't you realise this is pretty childish? |
ya that makes sense we intimidate them so that we got hit even harder, ya i think israel enjoys being the brunt of terrorist acts.
listen for all i care, as soon as terrorism starts its a clear slate, i dont care for the cause, the reason, or the solution and will not contemplate anything until terrorism is ousted, or are you going to argue that the acts done by israel to the palestinians are worse than what is happening to israel by palestinian hands, because this is an arguement you will not win.
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How can you catch a man with no criminal record, who is committing no crime, and who is seemingly a legitimate member of society?
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no criminal record? LOL, now you're starting to sound as though you have never read a book. what about the assasination of the israelis at the 1972 olympic games, that was proved by the world to have been done by the PLO (remind me who their chairman is?) how about the karine A? i can keep on going on and on but really i only need one aligation. you said right: "who is seemingly a legitimate member of society"
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Many Palestinians, ordinary citizens, see the suicide bombings as justified.
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then many palestinians do not deserve to represent humanity.
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The saying goes, one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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call it what you will terrorism is evil and should NEVER happen
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These people would consider outspoken Israeli commanders and the IDF as terrorists, you might consider them freedom fighters.
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seems to me you are ignoring our posts. it is never the intention of the israeli government or IDF to commit acts of terror agianst innocent palestinian civilians but as you said before "many palestinians see the suicide bombings as justified" hmm there is an obivious worse side here. which i am dumbfounded as to why you wont admit it. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Arafat has done 100% nothing in an attempt to reduce terrorism and destory the terrorist infrastructure with in his controled areas
I'd really like to see some proof. I'm not going to accept sweeping and rather extreme statements like that straight off. |
Dammit man, do my arguments go through you like water or what??? I have said he has not amended the charter, he has not told his people suicide bombing are bad, he has not arrested known terrorist, he has not collected weapons, he has not followed the mitchell plan, he has not denounced the propaganda in his state controlled press..., he has not turned over militants directly proven to be associated with Mr. Zihavi's assination over to the Israels.. he has not put forth a full investigation regarding the Karin A... shall I go on? He has not done one of these things.
| quote: | | I know you will brand me as a conspiracy theorist, it's your only option left. If the IDF or the US govt are legitimate sources, then so are Arafat and his people, and if I bombard you with their propaganda, will you treat it with as much respect? If not, please state why, and back up any sweeping or extreme statement you make. |
No just stupid, a rational person can conclude the US govt and the IDF are intergal parts of a democractic nation with free press. Their involvement are made of public record for all to examin and investigate. You can go research US conclusions, and the facts they are based upon, just like you can go research Israeli Defense Force actions and how they act. You can go examine the autopsy reports of Israelis and death records and such, and then you can go examine the credentials of the person who gave the autopsy and determine their affliation or netruality. Further more the press is the open eye and the critizier when things here go worng... If you can't see the difference between an open society and a dictatorship police-state that spews out propaganada then god help you.
| quote: | Arafat's police have suppressed any voice of opposition against his rule
I have underlined "any" because it is typical of the soundbites you're using. |
Right, again not 'any' but most. Still restricting freedome of speech and political expression is a big violation of any individuals human rights. His draconian enforcement of such things have slewed anyone who is of left-wing persuasion in his autonomy to change views publicly remarkably fast. Please.. show me a Palestinian living in the terrirories that will concede to all (or most) the demands of the Israelis, I can find Israelis as such living in Israel. Why? If they voice these opinions they will be labeled as traitors, hung up side down and killed.
| quote: | | Once again, you've just came out with this as if it's fact, but I know you have no proof. |
Again, check Humans Right Watch, the International Red Cross, etc... I can turn this around and say you have come with no proof to the contrary either. However, if you don't believe this point it does not matter. The truth still is Arafat is a terrorist.
| quote: | | What's ironic is that Israeli bombing is most likely the real reason he's gaining support, but that wouldn't have blended in well with your soundbite. |
Maybe we can understand now why Sharon regrets not killing him eh?
| quote: | | What really strikes me the most in all this is how easily people assume Arafat can stop terrorism. |
Dud for the milliononth to the nth degree time, Israel has already forgot about this.. They just want him to show a 100% effort to stopping terrosim.
| quote: | | Areas of the country are in ruins, there is growing poverty, there is incredible anger at the Israelis who keep killing civilians. You tell him to keep his people under control, then you intimidate his people into attacking you. |
Again, they don't mis-interpurt the cycle of violence. Israel can withhold itself from attacking, you clearly just said above that the Palestinians can now, here you implied it look "how easily people assume Arafat can stop terrorism". That means he can't stop it right? So there, why should Israel talk with someone with no control? All I can say is HE HAD the power if he does not now to have stopped all terrorism, post 1993.. 10 years dammit where have you been? Never has he ammended his charter, called up for the expelling of militant terrorist in his areas, collect weapons.. NOTHING!! And this was before the checkpoints and the 'humiliation' and civlian casualties... so don't tell me this.. learn some history for god sake.
| quote: | | Don't you realise this is pretty childish? Arafat has limited resources. |
He looked like he had a lot of resources to me... enough to get 50 tons of more then 'light' arms on the Karin A. Where's your proof for this argument huh? I just disproved yours.
| quote: | | London was bombed consecutively for 4 years, and Britain are the 4th richest 'nation' in the world. 4 planes were hijacked in the world's richest country, a nation with 100,000 intelligence personnel operating around the globe who failed to predict it. |
Again, 100% effort. Look at Jordan for instance, they are doing 100% to stop terrorism, but terrorism did occur.. I think it was 1995, some Jordanian soldier opened fire on an Israeli Girl's School trip near the Jordanian border, killing around 25 innocents in the massacre. The other Jordanian gaurds killed him, the Jordanian King then made a trip around Israel to the family of the victims expressing his deepest condollences... he actually meant it, he did so by visiting the families and making sure it does not happen again.
Just because America was not able to prevent 4 plans from being Hijacked then, does not mean they won't be able to prevent it from happening now. You learn from your mistakes, by know Arafat should have learned how to oeprate to control terrorist.. and he has.. he just controls them to increase their activity not decrease it.
| quote: | | How can you catch a man with no criminal record, who is committing no crime, and who is seemingly a legitimate member of society? |
Very simple, many of them have a terrorist record. DO you thinkt he sucidie bombers just say, here I will take explosivies and kill myself? No! Have you found a pattern that they are associated to a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, this means they have high ups, this means they have people who teach people how to be sucidie bombers, there are people who smuggle weapons and explosives... etc.. There is an INFRASTRUCTURE it is not some one idiot going blowing himself up.. it is an organization that recruits plans, and asks Arafat for the green light.
You can do much more then they are now, how about arresting these terrorist leaders? the arm smugglers? Israel has handed over dozens of lists with names and address... has the Palestinian arrested them? No.
| quote: | | Suicide bombers are not easy to catch. Britain have had bombs for 30 years and we've found it damn hard to stop. America recently felt the impact on Sept 11. |
Yes, but they do not operate with in Britian, they operated from a region that supported terrorism, Ireland.. If Ireland goverment would have cracked down in their territories on this group as the British did in their own territories they would not have happened. Case in fact this is what has happened now and therefore you see reduced instances of this.
| quote: | | These suicide bombers let their bombs off inside Israel. This is a failure by Arafat to find and catch these people, and it's a failure of Sharon to find these people in his own territory. Some of these individuals would have been near impossible to catch if they had no criminal record and committed no suspicous activity, espescially with Israeli helicopters destroying police stations and turning the border into rubble. |
Again do not mix it up, Israel destroyed the police stations for this exact reason because they had not done their job. If the police stations would have been used for their purpose they would have not been destroyed. The fact is Israel is doing its share, it is vigerously hunting these people down in their own territory.. 100% effort. There are virtaully no terrorist rings operating in Israel proper, and they shut them down the instant they find out about them. It might be impossible to catch every single crazed maniac... but Arafat has not stopped the incitement, has not gone after the ring leaders, has not gone after the arms, has not done any of this.. this is why he has no more police stations. It does not go vice versa.
| quote: | | I think it's a little narrow minded to offload all of the blame onto Arafat. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out. Arafat is the one to blame, if you can not put the leader of the government of the Palestinian people at blame who can you put at blame? The Palestinian people? I would disagree since he is not fairly elected and is a dictator.
| quote: |
I don't mean to get into a petty quoting match, but I think Inspector_Morse answered this question quite well when he said "it's very difficult for Arafat to publicly denounce the suicide bombings while Israel inflicts casualties on the Palestinians". |
Why is it difficult?? Because his people will be angry? Boo hoo. Big news flash they are already. He has 40,000 armed guards (or had), to protect himself, that is more cop per capita then any other place on earth. More then enough to cede any rebellion that would have happened if it had not gone their way. He had the power to do what ever was nessecary.. he is a dictator with controled press if he would have chose to been wise and benevolent he could have quelled the terrorism, which would have brought an end to the Israeli retaliation, which would have allowed for a final peace.
Arafat has more power in this sense in the fact that he is a dictator and has total control, he can do what he wishes. Israel on the other hand can not. If Sharon was not to retaliate his government would collapse and the whole situation would be thrown into further disarray. Sharon is behind the will of the people since he is their repersentative, Arafat is not, he is their dictator.
| quote: | | Many Palestinians, ordinary citizens, see the suicide bombings as justified. The saying goes, one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. |
Ok so now you are justifying terrosim right? Be clear on this.. it looks that way to me. You really think that terrorism in any context is justified?
| quote: | | These people would consider outspoken Israeli commanders and the IDF as terrorists, you might consider them freedom fighters. |
I consider the IDF exactly that, the Israeli Defense Force - an army. You can either chose War Criminals or terrorist you can not say both. So please, if you want to critize the army say they are War Criminals as they are surely not terrorist. This is just a phrase word they like to go through around all the time.. they never understand the meaning of the words they say.
| quote: | | Arafat has guns pointed at him from all directions. He has two gangs on his back, terrorists and Sharon. |
Why do you say Sharon is on his back? It looked to me that when Sharon came to office he wanted nothing but peace and security. He has never broken any of his promises regarding foriegn policy, do not let any of his history effect his current preformance, as it is clearly unrelated. Shron is with him, as he said the hand always reaching for peace. If Arafat truly wants peace he will not see Sharon as an enemy but as a partner for peace. The terrorist on the other we all know they are an enemy for peace.. so why is Arafat not doing anything about this? Anything of the above I mentioned?
| quote: | | When his people are so outraged at the Israelis that they accept suicide bombings, it's difficult for him to tell his own people, millions of them, to change their views. In fact I think his silence is wise, he does not seek popularity by praising their efforts, does he? |
Yes he does. He calls upon them to by martyrs, he calls upon himself to be a martyer, he ecnourages them to be martyrs, he pays them to be martyrs. Furthermore his state control press basically preaches being a martyer (martyer means sucidie bomber for them btw). Do you want me to give you some of his statements? DO you want me to reinterpurt their arabic press to english in you? He is not even silent about the issue, he clearly is for it. - Listen to him in an interview for once.. he does not condem terrorist, he says they are freedom fighters fighting for liberation.
And once again, it is very simple for him to tell his own people what to do. He is a DICTATOR, Sharon on the other hand is not.. it would be hard for him to tell his people what to do if they didn't want to do it already.
Yoepus
I love that jacket you're wearing. It's obvious you shop at only the finest garage sales. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by DamnDirtyApe
I give up. It's impossible to win an argument with a fanatic.
Yoepus, Izzy, and Eugene - try and realize that there are two sides to every story. Don't automatically believe the propaganda of one side. |
two side yes, i've heard both, done research (by living in israel over 10 years, reading books/newspapers/magazines, tv, checking out internet resources... etc), came to a conclusion, and decided that there is reason for picking one side over the other (see rational thought) |
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