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We are going into war!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :( (pg. 12)
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| tenor |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
get when I say something like how the IRA are saints when you compare them to the PLO, Fatah, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc... |
IRA has killed over 1600 people. Add UVF, UFF, INLA, UDA, RUC, RIRA etc and the casualties go over 3300. Not quite saints.
| quote: | | If you thought what you experienced is bad, I recommend you take upon the invitations extended upon you by other Israelis on this thread to visit Israel. |
Why dont you visit some places.. try Qana, Sabra, Shatila, Kufr Qasim etc..
| quote: | | Secondly, Israel does negotiate (has) with terrorist. Namely Arafat. It didn't, then it did, both didn't work. So now we don't anymore, which seems all the much wiser now that the world is making a crack down on terror(? ok well Bush is, you guys nod your head and said yes, now back out.. very, very nice). |
Do you think the harder tactics are working? Have you seen a decrease in suicide bombers?
| quote: | | Again, if you get so angry at when I imply how tame your little terrorist are, and how you describe how your soldiers die. Just think of the horrible, horrible sites in Israel. And you know what? Israelis don't commit suicide.. why? They see these sites day and day out since they are very, very young. They know this is a part of life, people doing barbarian acts against them, and them trying to hold the high ground above them, responding only appropriately. So please.. |
Funny. I would guess most palestinians could say the same. I quoted a report from B'Tselem which included a story of boys playing with plastic guns and getting shot..
| quote: | | do not try and go out on a limb and tell me how this guy was inncoent or that guy was innocent when they violated direct orders from military in a war scene. They should know better.. this is war, its not a joke. |
Well - I guess the problem is that the more you make rules such as 'if you go to that area, you will be shot', the more there will be people who havent heard that rule. Innocent is innocent, even if you are in the wrong place. Oh, by the way, where is the army you are fighting? Where are the tanks attacking you?
| quote: | | Again, war can not investigate every single event now.. just like in WWII not every single event was investigated, as is in Afghanistan, as in Bosnia, and the Balkans... so don't compare some small intensity conflict to what is happening now.. all out war. But again, the records of these investigations are made public... they might now be on the IDF site, but they are public, and are available. |
I quoted B'Tselem earlier, noting that only two incidents have been investigated during this intifada. Lot of things to publish.. Those IDF boys must be busy publishing them!
| quote: | | You should know better, Israel is a democracy, democratic armies do not operate on the same moral standards as predecor armies, and dictatorial armies. |
Yeah, democracy where not everyone is equal. Cheers.
| quote: | | Now to that finish guy who appeared into idiocy from no where. Learn some history. Again check a few message of mines back, the old thread contains a history note which I advise you to read. |
MMMM revisionist zionist propaganda. Love it! (yes, provocation)
| quote: | I don't want to waste my time and correct every little thing you said there (all wrong), but just this point:
1967, you say Egypt had no intentions of starting a war. |
I only quoted someone else (Rabin) who thought Egypt had no intentions to start a war. Now, do you think Rabin might have known just a little bit more about the situation than you do?
| quote: | | Egypt had repeled UN observers who were stationed there to prevent such an Egyptian invasion, and did nothing. They did not fight or anything, Assad asked them to leave and they did. This is why Israel still is very angry at the UN and strongly discourages UN peacekeepers. |
Is this also why Israel still isnt doing what the UN decided?
ps. I have nothing against the Israelis, I just think that 30 years is enough occupation, especially now that Egypt has calmed down quite a bit (I guess they noticed that tourism makes for a better living), Jordan is not a threat.. Also, Arafat, PLO, Hamas etc just make it worse, but Sharon isnt doing much to help either. I am sorry for the people having to live there, not for their corrupt leaders.
pps. I think we're fighting over too small details here. I think we can both agree that both sides have done too many terrible things - but how do you propose that the situation is fixed? I dont think that getting all palestinians out of Israel Eretz is a solution. I do think that total unilateral Israeli withdrawal would be the best solution - and that would probably keep the US on Israel's side - which will be useful if Saddam is stupid enough to try to attack Israel (which is the only real risk on Israel that I can see). |
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| evil_bastard |
By the way, our little conflict in the isles might not have the same international news coverage as the suicide bombs, but the Provisionals and the Loyalists have done some very nasty things both on UK mainland but espescially in Northern Ireland.
On 6 June 1990, Provosionals planted a bomb on the roof of the barracks of the Honourable Artillery Company, a Territorial Army unit based in the City of London. It subsequently exploded, injuring seventeen people attending a birthday party in the building. During the same month, a bomb was found in a rucksack near a building at RAF Stanmore Park, in north-west London. The area was evacuated before the device exploded without causing any casualties. Towards the end of the month, on 25 June, the Carlton Club, situated in London's West End district of Mayfair and a haunt of Conservative politicians, was also the scene of a bomb attack.
A few weeks later, the Provisionals struck again. On 20 July, a bomb exploded in the London Stock Exchange, causing massive damage. Ten days later, on 30 July, a bomb exploded under the car of Ian Gow, a former Conservative Minister and a close confidant of the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, outside his home at Hankham in Sussex.
The latter part of 1990 saw the Provisional IRA resorting to the use of 'human bombs'. On 24 October, three catholic men, whom the Provisionals claimed had been informers for the security forces, were forcibly tied into the driving seats of their cars which had been loaded with explosives. They were then ordered to drive to three checkpoints at Coshquin, near Londonderry; Killen near Newry; and Omagh in County Tyrone. At Coshquin the bomb exploded, killing five soldiers as well as the driver, and a soldier died at Killeen. The third bomb failed to explode. This particularly barbaric tactic caused widespread revulsion and outrage, and a loyalist group, the Protestant Action Force, shot dead a Catholic taxi driver in Moy, County Tyrone, in retaliation.
Early the following year, the Provisionals once again took the war to the heart of the British political establishment. On 7 February 1991 they carried out a mortar attack on 10 Downing Street. Three bombs, each carrying twenty pounds of an explosive mixture of ammonium nitrate and nitrobenzene, were launched from a battery of three home made 6-inch mortars concealed in a Ford Transit van parked opposite the Ministry of Defence in Whitehall. At the time, Prime Minister John Major and his cabinet were in session, discussing the Gulf War; all took cover under the Cabinet Room table as the bombs landed in the Garden. No one was injured, and the terrorists escaped; shortly after the bombs were fired, the van exploded in a ball of flame.
On 18 February, the Provisionals carried out another two attacks, this time on the general public. A bomb exploded at Victoria Station, during the early morning rush-hour, killing one person and injuring thirty-eight; shortly afterwards, another smaller device exploded at Paddington station, causing no casualties and only minor damage.
The following year, 1992, saw killings continuing to be perpetuated in Northern Ireland by both the Provisional IRA and loyalists. On 17 January, a culvert bomb exploded as a van, carrying fourteen Protestant workers, crossed the Treebane cross-roads; eight of them died and the other six were injured in the blast. The men had been returning home from an Army base at Lisanelly where they had been working for a local construction company. Retaliation came on 5 February, two UFF gunmen shooting dead five Catholics, one of them a 15-year old boy, in a betting shop in Ormeau Road, Belfast.
Later in the year, the Provisional IRA launched an attack on one of the government agencies principally involved in the war against terrorism in Northern ireland. During September, a massive bomb weighing 3,000 pounds exploded outside the perimeter fence of the Northern Ireland Forensic Science Laboratory situated just outside Belfast, demolishing the building completely. Within a fortnight, however, the building had been relocated to temporary premises and was handling priority cases; six months later it was fully operational at a new location to the north of Belfast. This was not the first attack on the laboratory since the start of the troubles in 1969: it was bombed in 1970, while located in the city centre, and three years later terrorists raided it and seized weapons and ammunition. In 1975 it was damaged by a bomb and a year later was the target of an arson attack which caused considerable damage.
Meanwhile, the Provisionals had been continuing their campaign of terror in the mainland. On 10 April, at 9.25 p.m., a huge bomb exploded outside the Baltic Exchange in the City of London, killing three people and injuring ninety-one, and causing massive damage to the tune of £350 million.
On 7 October, a bomb exploded in central London in the area of the centre point tower, but no casualties were incurred. On the evening of 8 October, two smaller devices exploded, one of them at the London Dungeon Museum near London Bridge, injuring one person slightly. On the following day, two similar devices exploded in a residential area in North London without causing any damage. On the morning of 10 October a bomb exploded outside the high-security police station at Paddington green. Two days later, another exploded in the Sussex Arms pub in the Covent Garden area of London; five people were injured in the blast, one man later dying in hospital. On 21 October three more bombs exploded, one of them on a railway bridge which injured 3 people and damaged a train.
On the night of 13 November, another attack saw the Provisional IRA using different tactics. A group of terrorists hired a taxi in North London and, having placed a bomb in the boot of the vehicle, forced the driver to Whitehall where they abandoned the vehicle near Downing Street. The bomb exploded shortly afterwards, causing only minor damage and no casualties. Two days later, on the night of Sunday 15 November, security guards at the Canary Wharf development in east London encountered two armed men with a gun. Police called to the scene shortly afterwards found a van containing a large bomb; some time later they discovered an abandoned car two miles away which was suspected to be the men's getaway vehicle.
December 1992 saw the launch of a Christmas bombing campaign by the Provisionals who targeted Oxford Street, other shopping centres and tube stations. These sattacks on London continued into 1993, following a similar pattern: on 3 February, bombs exploded at South Kensington tube station and Kent House main line station. On 27 February, a bomb exploded in Camden High Street.
On 26 February, a bomb attack was carried out on a gas works at Warrington in Cheshire, causing considerable damage. A month later the Provisionals struck again in Warrington, on this occasion with more devastating results. On 20 March bombs exploded in rubbish bins in a shopping centre, killing a 3-year-old boy, Johnathon Ball, and injuring fifty-six people. A second boy, 12-year-old Tim Parry, died in hospital.
The following month saw the return of the bombers to London. On 24 April, a truck bomb exploded in the Bishopsgate area of the City, killing a newspaper photographer and injuring forty-four people. The bomb was a huge one, containing 2,200 pounds of a fertiliser-based explosive, and caused damage estimated at £500 million. The National Westminster Tower, one of the tallest buildings in Europe, was severely damaged by the blast. That same day, however, saw two other attacks foiled. Two taxis were hijacked and bombs placed inside them, their drivers being ordered to drive to New Scotland Yard and Downing Street respectively. The two drivers, however, abandoned their vehicles in King's Cross and Finsbury Park and contacted the police. Both taxis exploded shortly afterwards without causing any civilian casualties.
The Autumn of 1993 saw the Provisionals mounting a further bombing campaign in London, this time in the area around Highgate, Finchley, Archway and Hornsey. On 2 October, ten bombs exploded causing injury and damage; two others failed to explode. Two men, Gerard Mackin and Derek Doherty, were later arrested, tried and imprisoned for these bombings.
In Northern Ireland, meanwhile, secretarian killings continued. On 23 October, the Provisionals bombed a shop in Belfast's Shankhill Road, killing ten people. A week later, seven Catholics were shot dead in a bar, in Greysteel, by Protestant terrorists in retaliation for the Shankhill bombing.
All of this took place in a 3 year period, and these attrocities do not include those of the loyalists. By the way, very few of the perpetrators of these acts have been caught. |
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| TranceGiant |
"Sure. That Rabin quote is from Le Monde, 29 feb 1968. The Eytan quote is from Ilan Pappe, "The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict, 1947-1951.". Is antisemitist = antizionist? How can jews be antisemitist? Hating themselves? (Not all jews are zionists, and not all zionists are jews)"
Ill do my research bout the quotes. Not every antizionist is necessarily anti-semitic. Many anti-semites however use the mas of Israel-critizim to attack Jews. You want a list of anti-semitic Jews?
Marx, Trotzki, Spinoza, Finkelstein, Chomsky, Shahak....Halper?
Halper lies. This is proven. No i got no patience to show each and every of his lies. Its jsut easy for a Jew to become famous if you bash your own people..brings ya lots of $$$ after all. Btw. is theres something like an Arab Avnery, Halper etc.?
"Oh? really? The jews controlled and ruled the area and such? I dont think so.. One thing you are missing is that the jews who actually lived in the area before England allowed unlimited immigration, lived in peace with the arabs. No problems. The problems started when the zionists came in.. (yes, i'm provocating here)"
I made that statement to mirror your oversimplificed version of mid-east history. One thing is a fact. Jews lived there BEFORE the first Arabs came, and continued having small villages and settlements NON stop throughout thousands of years. And as opposed to the Arabs the Jews DID have a state(monarchy) once in Israel. Their problem if it started back then. Jews have a right on their own state and Arabs there had to accpet that.(want me to continue them explanations or is that enough?)
"Pogroms are not terrorism as such - more like riots. Also, Irgun was founded in 1931 - the difference isnt all that big. I would guess PA would do everything at their disposal to stop Hamas etc. if they were as independent as the Zionist leadership was when they stopped the terrorist groups. That is : an independent nation."
What the hell are you talking about...When does terrorism start, when does it end? Being in their natioalistic euphoria(yes Arabs at that time developed their own nationalism in their fight against the Ottomans) they didnt accept the Zionist movement and did terrorize them. Ben Gurion decided to reach his goals by diplomacy, Arafat counts on Terror. Thats the difference. While Jewish Terror fought British troops and Arab extremists, it never aimed the destruction of the other side (as opposed to today's ideologies of Hamas and such)
"I also mentioned what happened before it.. The destruction of Palestinian villages (some people estimate 85% of villages were destroyed then - I think it's irrelevant how many of them were destroyed).. Why do you think the arabs left? Who gave the Israelis the moral right to drive other people away from their home?? Also, after this war the partition plan was remade, right? Didn't the Israelis gain a bit of land then?"
Refugees: http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles...fugee_issue.asp
If YOU start a war, you take risks. Okay? throughout history land was conquered and lost in wars. thats the name of the game. Simple as that. You start, you lose, your fault.
"Wow. That's down to 1930 level again.. 70 years and the arabs havent been breeding at all? Or has the Zionist campaign just been a great success? You probably already know this, but the Israeli Arabs do not have the same rights as Israeli Jews.. There was a story of an Israeli Arab who cant buy certain piece of land, because he is an arab. How nice, huh?"
I myself pointed out that the situation of the Israeli Arabs must be amended. However they stil live much better than all of their "brothers" in Arab states (democracy, human rights---> cant compare to the purchasing of lands,eh?)
"Are you serious, trying to say that arabs had a chance? Are you serious in thinking they really were that stupid? Agreed - shutting out Tiran straits was stupid, but it still is no reason for war. Neither is moving tanks. Except, obviously, if you are Israel."
Yes, im very serious. Israel was back then NOT armed by the US, the Arabs however, by the Russians. Nasser was euphoric and did announce that he would eventually drive the zionists out. If i aim a gun at you, threatening to kill ya, sending all other people in the room out..wil u wait until i start shooting or will ya stand up and jump me?
"There shouldnt be any palestinian refugees. Why should everyone else take care of them just because Israel doesnt want them and drove them out of their homes?"
Read my link+ Isnt it still hypocritical to speak as "arab brothers" but on the other hand HATE them, keep them like animals and massacre them (like syria and christian falange did in lebanon).
"How about the land that was taken from the palestinians, and resettled by the Israelis? Doh. "
Nothing was taken from the "palestinians", period.
"Hamas and Jihad do not represent the majority of Palestinian population, you should know that. "
Accordung to mayn surveys...76% of the population support their attacks. Araft officially supports them and even gives them orders.
"Under Arafat's regime? So Arafat is commanding all those Israeli tanks and helicopters there? Really? I didnt know that. Bull. The land is occupied, thus, not controlled by Arafat, but by the occupee (=Israel)"
You fool. The situation i describe is pre-intifada 2. Dont mix action with reaction. Before Arafat decided to wage a war against Israel, he controlled 95% of the ppl and 40% of the lands.
"Oh, how nice of them it was to give them BACK area which they conquered. How peaceful is that! Oslo accords.. well. If the Israelis really wanted peace, maybe they should have done as they promised in the accords.. Like not build 1000 housing units in west bank or not letting the palestinians hold free elections.. (http://www.washington-report.org/ba...194/9411008.htm) "
Settlements already discussed here..just READ. I got no patience to list all the violations on the Pal. side(as for Oslo). The Palestinians held elections in 1996. |
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| tenor |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
I'm sorry, I just looked at that site the British dud found to list a name of none-innocent Palestinians 'civilains' who were killed, and then the Finnish idiot quoted the above thing.. He forgot to include the paragraph below which totally discredits this report.
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'When you run out of arguments, try personal insults', right?
| quote: |
SECRET see that??? If they were secret how the hell does this organization know what they are?? This is truly just stating opinion without backing it up with any fact. They note one incident, with no sources, or total context (I don't know, I wasn't there what happened), and then prove it by saying Israel has a 'new secret' document which says such, such and such. How about they publish the document then eh? |
So you didnt actually read the report. Try it first. The quote only mentioned the new secret rules, and thats all you can talk about? Please.
| quote: | | Again. Violates Geneva convetion - Justification for war by imposing blockades, Expulsion of UN observors. One could have only assumed their real intent. |
Well, which one of the geneva conventions? The first one about taking care of the wounded soldiers? Or the second one about taking care of wounded sailors? Or the third one about prisoners of war? Or the fourth one about civilian personnel during wartime? You obviously have no clue about the Geneva convention.
| quote: | | Lets start, Jews have lived in Israel for more then 10,000 years. They have not lived under their own domain for around 1500 years. |
10000 years? hardly.. The patriarchs arrived in Israel c. 1700 BC (http://www.akhlah.com/israel/Israel...ry_timeline.asp)
| quote: | Pre-WWI:
At this time the Ottoman Empire is the ruler of the lands, and does not allow Jewish migration to the area. Many Jews move there despite this. They help revolt against the Turks during WWI with the British. When the peace was signed in Paris, Britain was given mandate over this territory with the acceptance that they comply with the Balfour Declaration, which stated that Britain will designate this area as a future Jewish homeland, and will help the Jews establish it as such. |
Here's the root of this argument. Brits had nothing to do with Palestine when Balfour declared his words. The mandate was given in 1920 at San Remo, Balfour Declaration was in 1917. Also, I doubt that the people in San Remo cared about the Balfour Declaration - if you can prove otherwise, I'll be happy to hear it.
| quote: |
They did not. Arabs had already been warring with the Jews, as they swarmed into the area under the British mandate (Arabs did.. doubling the population in this region at the time). |
1922-1933, jewish population +366000, arabian population +310000 (http://www.foigm.org/IMG/krewsn2.htm)
| quote: | | The British did much the opposite and tried to accommodate Arabs, by restricting Jewish migration to the land, while looking the other way for Arab migration. The Arabs doubled their populace under the British mandate. |
Wow. the numbers really dont show that, but maybe it is really so! How did they try to restrict it, and when was this? Or are you talking about the white paper of 1939?
| quote: | | • Then 1956, Egypt had declared war on Israel. Israel launched the Sinai campaign which successfully reopened the Suez canal to free international shipping. |
Ex-ing-cuse me? Oh yeah, it's your own personal Geneva Convention again..
| quote: | | • 1967, Egypt had once again declared war on Israel. Syria and Jordan had never declared normalization with Israel and continually bombarded Israeli territory, and utilized terrorist to infiltrate into Israel and wreak havoc. Israel launched a pre-emptive attack due to the army build up and captured more territory. |
So, they launched a pre-emptive attack against someone who already declared war on them? .. |
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| evil_bastard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Devbert
I've read the entire thread (believe it or not), and I understand what your saying about the British Soldiers.
I just think in most cases, I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the Israeli soldiers. I don't think most of them are just shooting innocent civilians and then claiming they were fired at.
Maybe there should be a further investigation, but in the current state of affairs they are in, it isn't the top priority. Peace being restored to the area is. And I think most Israeli soldiers would rather be safe at home, then making the situation worse by needlessly gunning down civilians. |
Bear in mind that the reports are purely the soldier's version of events, which is why they need an investigation.
In the British Army, the US Army, and any other self respecting Army, such events are always followed up by an investigation, this is frequently announced on the news. Take for example a few weeks ago, when British troops were fired at (according to the soldiers' version of events) and returned fire at a taxi driving during the Kurfew (the taxi was actually driving to a hospital so a pregnant women who is now dead could deliver her baby). These men were immediately removed from their position and flown half the world away back home for investigation.
The reason we do this is simple. If we didn't, soldiers could do what they like, rape, torture, or kill civilians, and then just say it was all in self defence. If no investigation is launched, who's to argue?
They really began to crack down after incidents such as Somalia. Not specifically the American mission on Oct 3 (aka Black Hawk Down), but when Canadian peacekeepers foolishly video taped themselves torturing a young somali boy, and I believe Italian troops were found guilty of similar actions.
People really then began to realise that when you leave men with lethal weapons in positions of power over helpless people, many miles from prying eyes, horrible things can happen. Investigation and discipline offers more deterren than nothing. |
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| tenor |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
I made that statement to mirror your oversimplificed version of mid-east history. One thing is a fact. Jews lived there BEFORE the first Arabs came, and continued having small villages and settlements NON stop throughout thousands of years. And as opposed to the Arabs the Jews DID have a state(monarchy) once in Israel. Their problem if it started back then. Jews have a right on their own state and Arabs there had to accpet that.(want me to continue them explanations or is that enough?) |
So all land belongs to the persons who were there first? We better start redistributing land on this planet with a heavy hand.. Let's start with the americans! Sorry, but things that happened 3000 years ago shouldnt matter now. Things that happened 10 or 50 years ago should.
| quote: | | Ben Gurion decided to reach his goals by diplomacy, Arafat counts on Terror. Thats the difference. While Jewish Terror fought British troops and Arab extremists, it never aimed the destruction of the other side (as opposed to today's ideologies of Hamas and such) |
"The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPT for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." - Ben-Gurion, feb 7 1948, addressing the Mapai council. (source: Benny Morris, The birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949)
www.aish.com? 'Everything Jewish'? What a credible site.. No offense.
So, the people driven out of their homes in Palestine now started the war and not Egypt et al?
| quote: | | I myself pointed out that the situation of the Israeli Arabs must be amended. However they stil live much better than all of their "brothers" in Arab states (democracy, human rights---> cant compare to the purchasing of lands,eh?) |
It's no excuse.
| quote: | | If i aim a gun at you, threatening to kill ya, sending all other people in the room out..wil u wait until i start shooting or will ya stand up and jump me? |
Completing your analogy, I would also see that you only have fake bullets in your gun, without a chance of killing me. No, I would not shoot you.
| quote: | | Read my link+ Isnt it still hypocritical to speak as "arab brothers" but on the other hand HATE them, keep them like animals and massacre them (like syria and christian falange did in lebanon). |
Yes, but we were talking about their treatment in Israel, no?
| quote: | "How about the land that was taken from the palestinians, and resettled by the Israelis? Doh. "
Nothing was taken from the "palestinians", period. |
"Our army will conquer the Negev, will take the land into its hands and will sell it to the JNF at 20-25 Palestinian pounds per dunam. And there is a source . . . of millions [of pounds]." - Ben-Gurion, feb 1947. Same book. You really oughta read it.
| quote: | | Accordung to mayn surveys...76% of the population support their attacks. Araft officially supports them and even gives them orders. |
I would love to see such survey. Altho - I might've been over my head saying that they do not represent the population.. Hell, I would be fighting too if the swedes occupied finland and said 'we were here first' and keep us occupied for 30 years without being able to leave, living in ty houses and looking over the fence where rich swedish kids were playing with their new bikes.
ps. I dont like arafat either. However, he still seems the least bad candidate to lead palestine-. |
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| Inspector_Morse |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
So many closed minded people here... Especially you british, Evil_Bastard, and Inspector... It is so funny to see how touchy you get when I say something like how the IRA are saints when you compare them to the PLO, Fatah, Al Aksa, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc...
If you thought what you experienced is bad, I recommend you take upon the invitations extended upon you by other Israelis on this thread to visit Israel. |
Yeah, I'm touchy, I knew people who were killed by the IRA, and people who are still affected by the troubles. And I don't find it funny. You say it's funny, and all I get is this image of someone laughing their head off at how someone gets worked up about people's deaths, before whipping off your Ariel Sharon boxer shorts and cracking one off while watching the IDF shoot a child in the head. No wonder I get worked up with you, since you seem to take pleasure from what is tragic. You're just as bad as the Arabs who celebrated on September 11th.
What do you mean by "closed minded"? Is it my inability to see the oh so rightness of everything you say? Is it because the force of your argument is just so powerful that only a moron could fail to be moved by it, and be persuaded to whoop for joy whenever Palestinians die. Get your head out of your arse, you arrogant little . It's only a little conflict in the desert. Nothing to be upset about.
Don't begin your post in such a smug way, as if shaking your head and lamenting the fact that not everyone is as clever as you, or else they too would celebrate Israeli terror. Your mockery is the final coffin nail; you're a troll.
I have something important to do, so I'm getting out of here before I get too angry (yes, you've wound me up, well done, put another notch on your Kleenex box).
Enjoy watching the carnage, hope you don't run out of popcorn. |
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| torontotrance |
i think you all need to wake the up to the reality of this issue.
I live in one of the most multi-cultural cities on earth, we have 75+different cultures and we live in peace. I just don't get it ppl, look i'm not going to take sides. I think the violence is out of hand and innocent ppl are dying. Does violence solve anything in this conflict, ppl keep fighting. Do you actually realize why this keeps going on?, ppl refuse to negotiate. Ppl keep going on and on about how the isrealis are wrong or the palestianians are wrong. Pointing the finger solves nothing ppl........i think all involved need to wake up and negotiate because how many more innocent lives will be lost. We simply need peace because this is getting really pointless and i'm sick of hearing this crap on the news. You ignorant ppl will probably flame me because you have taken sides. Look at it here, we had palestianians and jews marching side by side here around the same cause, STOP THE VIOLENCE. I'm sure if ppl here can do it, ppl over there can do it. This issue is really tired and really urgent because how many more lives will be lost before we actually do something about this. |
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| Devbert |
It would be really nice if the violence could just stop.
If only it were that easy. It's depressing how far the situation has escalated. Now it's a "state of war". |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by tenor
Hell, I would be fighting too if the swedes occupied finland and said 'we were here first' and keep us occupied for 30 years without being able to leave, living in ty houses and looking over the fence where rich swedish kids were playing with their new bikes.
ps. I dont like arafat either. However, he still seems the least bad candidate to lead palestine-. |
so tenor, if your scenrio were true then would you contimplate (note: i did not say actual do it but just the thought of) starping a bomb on yourself, walking to the a cafe' in sweden and blowing your self up taking as many civilian lives as possible? thats the impression i am getting so correct me if im wrong.
all im saying is that in comparision between the two parties involved the terrorist acts commited by palestinians are worse then the ones committed by the israelis. can you agree with me on that? is forcably moving an entire people or oppressing them (palestinians), which isnt the case, moraly worse then killing an entire people (israelis)? as indicated by many of the orginization's charters and principles within the palestinian territories (leave out the fact that i can prove arafat is and has ties to terrorism, according to pres. Bush anyone who harbours or leads a blind eye to terrorism is a terrorist). most (if not all) of the cases of innocents you and evil_bastard put on here of the palestinian side who died in the hands of israeli soldiers can have some rational justification (the case with the kid and a fake gun, maybe the soldier had worse then 20/20 vision and couldnt tell that it was fake, i can do this about almost each case, it doesnt make it right but a rational reason for why this may have occurred can be presented) yet on the other hand i can see no rational reason why someone would want to blow himself up and unquestionably kill innocent civilians. or can you think up of a rational reason why he/she would do such a thing? for those reasons i belive there is a "worse" side to this and just as you said, | quote: | | I dont like arafat either. However, he still seems the least bad candidate to lead palestine-. |
you may not like israel but they are the least bad candidate. |
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| GnikyLime |
After reading this thread and the last Israeli-Palestinian one over the last few days, I have a few thoughts which bear mentioning.
~ Good v. Bad
Yoepus, you may be very well versed in contemporary Middle Eastern history and meditate upon your opinions; however, your extreme bias causes you to make some irrational claims. The world is not a simple dichotomy of good and evil.
Exempli gratia, the Holocaust was an atrocious and horrific collection of events. The campaigns of conquest enacted by Japan and Italy also threatened the ways of life of many different peoples. So, the Axis powers were bad. By your logic, that would make the Allied Powers good, but this de facto qualification blindly ignores many actions of the Allies. More Jews were systematically killed in the Gulag and by other Stalin institutions than in Nazi concentration camps. America shipped Japanese Americans, many of whose families had been living in America for at least a generation, to "internment camps," a euphemistic term for concentration camp. Hitler and other high ranking Nazi officials studied America's official treatment of Native Americans when formulating their methods of genocide.
I think we can all agree that the tragedy of September 11th was bad. I think we can also all agree that something should be done to prevent future acts of mass terrorism, although we won't all agree on the modus operandi. So, by your theory, America and her allies declaring a "war on terrorism" would be good. Good ol' G.W. sends the troops over to Afghanistan to supposedly rid the area of the Taliban and Al Qaeda while running a humanitarian operation for the Afghani citizens. Initially, it is important to note that not only did America arm the future members of the Taliban during the Soviet occupation, but last spring became the biggest financial supporter of the Taliban when Bush signed over $43 million to the regime for their prohibition of opium. Furthermore, if America really wants the best for the citizens of Afghanistan, then why is she dropping "dirty bombs," leaving radioactive waste to pollute local villages. The CIA also started a special propaganda wing for the conflict. They hired writers from Hollywood and high ranking members of advertising and marketing firms to come up with deceptive fliers to shower over Afghanistan. One such flier showed a doctored picture of Osama Bin Laden wearing a three-piece business suit with the caption "Usama has abandoned you" in Arabic. America has also essentially put the Northern Alliance into control, and while that collective regime's previous reign was not as horrifying as the Taliban, the Northern Alliance was not known for its respect of civil rights. Can these actions be considered good?
My point is simple: although I agree more with the Israeli cause, I do not blindly say that it is flawless and always good. Inhumane killing of innocent Palestinians (no, I am not referring to ones accidentally killed in cross fire) may not be sanctioned by the IDF, but that is not to say that individual soldiers (the few "whackos" of society that Yoepus refers to) don't comit those or other atrocities. Look to the American soldiers who would destroy entire villages of innocent Vietnamese for fear that they might be allied to the Viet Cong.
~Media
All media is biased. All media is propaganda of someone's opinion. Granted, the news organizations of a "free society" may show more sides of an issue, but their publications and shows will still be tainted. One should take all news with a grain of salt.
A little side note: I find it quite humorous that CNN can be both pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli. But then again, my ultra-conservative parents think that all mainstream media is liberal, while many people I know see it as right-leaning.
~Arafat/PLO
Even though I don't see the Israeli government and millitary complex as beyond reproach, it seems quite obvious to me that Yassir Arafat and the PLO condone, if not blatantly run, the violent terrorism of Israeli citizens.
I believe that Izzy brought up the assasination of the Israeli atheletes at the 1972 Olympics. The PLO was directly responsible. That serves as an excellent example.
Moreover, the official textbooks for Palestinian school children (published by the Palestinian Ministry of Education) are innundated with anti-semetic messages and praise of martyrdom and Jihad (read: suicide bombings).
| quote: | "Islam has forbidden flight from the battle and regards this as a grave sin.
(Islamic Education for Eighth Grade #576 p. 176) |
Eighth graders are told that peace is morally wrong.
| quote: | "Determine what is the subject, and what is the predicate, in the following sentences:
-The Jihad is a religious duty of every Muslim man and woman."
(Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, p. 167) |
Fifth graders are taught that they have a duty to fight religious wars in their grammar lessons.
| quote: | "...Martyred Jihad fighters are the most honored people, after the Prophets..."
(Reader And Literary Texts for Tenth Grade #607, p. 103) |
Tenth graders are assured blessing and honor as martyrs.
Obviously, Israeli children also have pro-Israeli propaganda in their classroom and are raised in a somewhat (I am sure that it varies family by family and city by city.) anti-Arab society, but they are not trained to hate and kill Palestinian civilians. With such inculcation by the PLO, no wonder one of the six suicide bombers in the last six days was an 18-year-old girl.
I leave this section with a quote by Palestinian Foreign Minister Farouk Kaddoumi outside a special meeting of the Organization of Islamic Conference yesterday:
| quote: | | It is not necessary to condemn the suicide bombers, because we have to take into consideration the reasons behind somebody willing to lose his life |
I think I have been long winded enough, enjoy. |
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| GnikyLime |
I thought this deserved special attention:
| quote: | Originally posted by Inspector_Morse
Don't hold your breath for Britain to take a stand, mind. We're too busy deciding which orifice of Bush's to stick our tongue in. |
Why Tony Blair would be the tool of a man that uses words like "Kosovians" and "Grecians" . . . didn't know the difference between Slovenia and Slovakia . . . a man who said, "My point to America is I have a plan to keep the peace, and I intend to do so. I'm a free trader. I know the world would be more peaceful if we had free trade around the world," and then proceeds to pass a 30% tariff on Asian and European steel imports . . .
And in the immortal words of Dubya: | quote: | "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"
--Florence, SC, Jan. 11, 2000
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| quote: | "The most important job is not to be governor, or first lady in my case."
--Pella, Iowa, as quoted in the San Antonio Express News, Jan. 30, 2000"
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| quote: | "I did denounce it. I de-I denounced it. I denounced interracial dating. I denounced anti-Catholic bigacy... bigotry."
--Referring to his Bob Jones University visit and the subsequent criticism, Virginia, February 25, 2000
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| quote: | "It is clear our nation is reliant upon big foreign oil. More and more of our imports come from overseas."
--Beaverton, Ore., Sep. 25, 2000
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| quote: | "They misunderestimated me."
--Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000
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