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Russia vs. Georgia (pg. 17)
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| EXTREMUM |
| quote: | Originally posted by know you
 | ARMED FORCES COMPARED GEORGIA Total personnel: 26,900 Main battle tanks (T-72): 82 Armoured personnel carriers: 139 Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95 RUSSIA Total personnel: 641,000 Main battle tanks (various): 6,717 Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388 Combat aircraft (various): 1,206 Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550 Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments |
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| nchs09 |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
No, there is. But your reasoning for the conflict is wrong since Russia is not in there for oil. they are in because the US fooled them. It might seem far fetch for most of you to comprehend this. But the power elite in the US planned this conflict for awhile. All what Russia had to do was respond the way they are responding now and that was it. It proved the power elite in the US right and now the US can carry on with its agenda. |
ing mexicans. |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by nchs09
ing mexicans. |
ing puerto ricans. |
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| aNYthing |
FYI: ej.ru is one of the very few opposition outlets left remaining in Russia. This is a translated article from one of their authors, by Alexander Golts. I tried to translate it from a somewhat complex Russian text with a help of Google language tools, fixing the mistakes here and there, while retaining the tone and sticking as close to the original form as possible.
| quote: | Why Russia is not trusted?
Besides reports from South Ossetia, where Georgian troops seem to be leaving the positions, Russian TV channels are full of angry comments. They are angered by the reaction of Western politicians and (negative reaction in Western) media to a new Caucasian war. They (seem to) ignore the obvious fact that unlike Saakashvili, Russia did not violate all the agreements and for the last day subjected Tskhinvali to a barbaric bombardment. "One can argue indefinitely about who fired first" – a dismissive reaction expressed to main Russian argument by a certain senior representative of the US administration who conducted a breefing for American journalists.
What is placed first and foremost is the disproportionate use of (russian) military force - above all, the air strikes deep into Georgian territory. The president of the United States threatens that the ramifications of the new Caucasian campaign will very seriously affect Russia’s relationship with the outside world. Foreign Ministries of other Western countries, representatives of the EU and NATO, have expressed similar views. If diplomats are at least trying to avoid using the word "aggression", the world's leading TV channels are not so reluctant. Not the least because the lion's share of time in programmes are granted to Mikhail Saakashvili, who speaking in excellent English lays out the Georgian version of events.
Our own media is predictably blathering “Bastards are lying”. Through lips of Mikhail Leontyev it explains what is happening worldwide is an anti-Russian conspiracy, in which Mikhail Saakashvili simply performs tasks assigned by the “Washington Office”. Obviously, the propaganda department of the “Office”, expectedly, is providing its’ support in the media.
If one does not assume the paranoid view of the global conspiracy, it is necessary to answer a simple question: Why in a situation where Moscow and Tbilisi provide two directly conflicting versions of what is happening and when arguments from both sides have obvious flaws, somehow Georgia’s version seems believable?
In my opinion, bombing of other regions of Georgia play the deciding role. The logic of our generals is easy to understand – by all the rules of military science you need to deprive the enemy of the reserves and not allow it to replenish the stocks of military equipment. Therefore, Russian warplanes strike at military bases and airstrips of the airfields. And this is considering that our airforce is not guilty of high accuracy, bombing the residential areas instead of military bases. All this was not difficult to forsee. Therefore,one should really weigh the hypothetical military effect of such bombing against a quite real PR damage. Avoiding it (PR damange) would be possible only if the (true) aim of the bombings was not to terrorize the Georgian population.
Very broad military action by Russia has created quite natural questions about what is the real purpose of this operation. It would be good if the objectives of Russian troops were limited to only "forcing (Georgia) to peace" in South Ossetia, restoration of the line of separating the sides - as it was stated by the Deputy Chief of General Staff, General Anatoly Nogovitsyn. However, if that’s the case then it is not very clear why Moscow actually supports Abkhazia, which opened a "second front" against Georgia.
And most importantly - how can it be explained that in a telephone conversation with Condoleezza Rice, the Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said quite sincerely that "Mikhail Saakashvili must leave"? It is quite telling that Americans have taken an unprecedented step during the meeting of the UN Security Council by publicly disclosing contents of confidential telephone conversations. I think this signifies that the current administration has no further plans for serious relationship with Russia. Even though Lavrov hastened to declare that he was misunderstood, it is perfectly clear that Moscow was not motivated just by the desire to establish a lasting peace in South Ossetia. There is (also) a strong hatred of the regime of Saakashvili and this (conflict) was a possible opportunity to destroy it. And Moscow cannot seem to mask it, which is what undermines the confidence in its words.
It cannot be overlooked that russian leaders ignore the the opportunity to convey their point of view to the world community. Saakashvili really is on American TVs at all times. However, I suspect that if Dmitry Medvedev decided to talk to foreign journalists they would certainly show up.
Finally, and perhaps the most important fact. The fact that the whole world now considers Russia an aggressor is the most significant outcome of its’ previous foreign policiy. The one which not long ago was characterized as successful actions to bring Russia back into the international arena. Why all of the sudden Moscow would be trusted by partners, which for several years have been convinced of, to put it mildry, the inadequacy of the Kremlin leaders. Let's recall promises to target missiles at Poland, the Czech Republic and Ukraine, thus responding to the deployment of U.S. missile defense and NATO expansion. Think about all these silly asymmetrical but adequate Russian responses: about flights of strategic bombers to Cuba, about the deployment of "Iskander" (missles) in Kalinigradskiy region. Think about Vladimir Putin's historic speech in Munich.
It is unlikely that Moscow would enjoy a special trust in the U.S., to whom a senior Russian Foreign Ministry quite recently predicted an unprecedented crisis and whom it promised to delete from the list of partners. Should Britain trust Russia? After polonium scandal, spy stories with a stone, and practically closing the British Council – that would be quite difficult. This is due to the fact that each of these stories were accompanied by endless lies from the mouth of Russia's official representatives. The current diplomatic defeat (one can only hope that it will not lead to a full diplomatic isolation of Russia) convincingly demonstrates the effectiveness and the success of our foreign policy.
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Source: http://www.ej.ru/?a=note&id=8296 |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
ing puerto ricans. |
He's from NICARAGUA....ing Mexicans... |
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| aNYthing |
Well, Russia is now bombing Georgia proper. I wonder how much longer before NATO or UN intervenes? I don't even know if the UN will be able to intervene, considering Russia is a permanent member of the security council. That leaves NATO. Which, should it engage, will effectively cause a whole chain of very bad outcomes across the board.
Forget Iran sanctions. Possible withdrawal from number of anti-proliferation treaties. Arms race, cold war all over again, energy crisis and oil/gas prices rocketing skyward. Alternative is that Russia stops when it wants to, which it probably won't until it gets satisfaction. I'm sure it doesn't help that Saakashvili hasn't been most choosy with words in the past, calling Vladimir Putin "liliputin", among other insults and issuing various threats.
Should NATO engage, this could potentially force Israel's hand to take matters with Iran under it's own control, since most likely the sanctions against Iran will not be issued, as Russia will play a "screw you all" game. The fall out of this conflict may even play into the hands of the Republicans, whose John McCain has been a very vocal critic of Russia and may bump up his standings with those swing voters who are still holding on to the still fresh memories of the soviet union's iron fist foreign policy.
This is a no-win situation for all involved and Russia definitely knows that it is in a very favorable position to dictate it's terms of peace or proceed as before. Even if Russians stop now, the damage (figuratively and literally) has been done - I imagine that Mikhail Saakishvili's position of leadership has been substantially undermined and russia-sponsored opposition has an equivalent of a thermonuclear ammunition in its arsenal now. They can play the victim card on the behalf of all georgian people and be even more vocal about forcing him out.
Any way you look at it, this is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad turn of events in an already white-hot region, with world-wide situation quickly moving into the boiling waters.
:nervous: |
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| guerra-monstru |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
He's from NICARAGUA....ing Mexicans... |
ing texans. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by guerra-monstru
ing texans. |
Remember the Alamo.
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by Agent0
fixed |
You realise it took my drunken mind agggeeess to find that "fixed" lol. :p
Really though fact is they were. Now... hmm ok they are piecekeepers. But really Russia has the dice with this now. The international community will hum and haw but do all.
Least in the short term. |
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| you on |
LOL
OK, anyways 4chan is back so I bid TA farewell again till the next time I am bored... :)
Someone should close this thread too, it just got stupid. :whip: |
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| Krypton |
| Georgian forces retreat from the northern front to fortified positions in Tbilisi and surrounding towns. A cease fire seems likely when the EU president visits Moscow and Tbilisi. This is a battle of a bear versus a cat. If Georgia made an unprovoked move on South Ossetia, then Georgian leadership made a huge blunder. |
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