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Garbage Strike 2009 (pg. 12)
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Orko
How about sticking with the issue, or we can bring up: GM, Chrysler, and Ford. Unions bled those companies (or any large manufacturing company in Canada) dry. So before you speak up, know what you are talking about. Abuse comes from both sides.
Yes, the law does provide provisions for unions, because they were written at a time when they were actually necessary. This isn't 1901, and we are not talking about Standard Oil, or railway companies from that era.
Unless you have done a comparison on what private garbage collectors make, in similar environments, how can you possibly say they 'get every penny they deserve'? How do you know what market prices are, especially for an industry you have admitted to not having worked in? |
Are you another one that blames the unions for all of the American car companies' trouble? Talk about one sided. I won't even acknowledge that part of your post because it's so ing biased that it's totally irrelevant. You have heard the term "mismanagement", right?
If you failed to follow along before, I used to work for the City of London. I was never a garbage man (that would be sanitation) because, frankly, I never would have cut it and probably neither would you. But I've seen up close how hard those guys work and how much they lift and how their bodies get beaten up and the pains they live with. Of course the private sector pays less. The private sector will always pay their workers less. And their workers are generally poorer and worse off too.
I wonder if any of you are familiar with the concept of the standard of living in this country? You seem to think everyone who isn't a "professional" deserves to be paid crap money and don't deserve benefits. All for what? So companies can be more competitive and make more money? More more more! Always more for the company and the worker whenever possible.
I guess this is why people like you vote for ing morons like Stephen Harper and gang...whereas I don't. |
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| smuncky |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
but apartments get pick up don't they? |
i heard miller made a personal request not to pick up jay's garbage. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT
1. The city has grossly mismanaged their finances by not dealing with the unions sooner and now realize that perks like banking sick days is a big part of the problem. As well as having a solialist Mayor who ran his first campaign out of the unions office (416).
2. No, I have never worked on a garbage truck but I do have dealings with many different parts of the city unions on a daily basis. It is also their choice to work as a garbage man and the private sector gets paid well but don't get the extra perks. The other thing people don't realize is that the garbage workers also only make up a small portion of the workers on strike (maybe 10%) so this agrument of needing to bank sick days because the job is so hard is pointless. Someone in AP, or processing parking tickets or welfare claims doesn't have a job that is hard on their body.
3. Sick time and being able to bank them and cash them in at the end of their carrer is the main issue.
4. Every company has the right to schedule vacation time for their employees. You are entitled to time off but it doesn't say anywhere in the labour code that you have the right to choose when that time is. I would also think that it is a good managers job to question his or her employees to make sure they are indeed sick and not taking advantage of the sick time policy at said company. I have to provide proof of illness if I am sick for more than 3 days and in fact I have to go on short term disability if i'm going to be sick for more than 3 days.
5. Unions were created to protect workers from unsafe work conditions, protect child labour, and ensure a fair wage. They were not created to earn banked sick days.
How anyone attempts to justify in this economy that being able to bank 18 sick days a year and then get paid out up to 120 of them is something ANYONE deserves is beyond me. If you are getting sick for more than 18 days in a year you have some other problems that you should be dealing with. |
All of you are basically overlooking pretty much EVERY societal reality, even in Canada. Frankly, you're so high on this idea of the "individual is in control of everything he or she does in her life and if they do not succeed it is their fault" that it's quite off putting and, in my opinion, demonstrates an extreme lack of understanding and caring about anyone other than yourself. You sound like right wing Republican voting Americans.
Where exactly was it written and from what source were the supposed main issues reported?
I agree about the banking sick time. At the City of London, they resolved that in the late 1990s fairly amicably. Sick days are provided but there have also been recent attendance programs to spook people into coming into work legitimately sick to save "money". That is bull. We live in a northern climate. People get sick fairly often and should be entitled to a reasonable amount of time off without fear of losing their job. Again, we're talking about quality of life/standard of living vs. being "competitive" and cost cutting, etc, etc. You know, when you start eliminating jobs that actually pay decent salaries, people have less money to buy things and the economy starts to suffer....OH WAIT!!! Isn't that KIND OF WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW? :rolleyes:
You think it's ok for every employer to be able to mandate when employees take off their time? Really? I'm glad you're not my boss. Oh, can't have any summer holidays with the family because my boss told me I can't have any time off until Christmas. Get ing real dude.
Unions were created to do all those things that you listed. They're still doing them and are still needed. Does everybody still make a fair wage in all industries? They sure don't. If anything, wages are being driven DOWN all across the board because of the fact that we have the HIGHEST cost of labour BECAUSE our standard of living and wages are higher than the vast majority of countries. Anyone who argues that salaries have kept pace with inflation and the rising costs of living over the last few decades is smoking that I really want. Besides, what's the incentive for a manufacturing company, willing to work with a union or not, to build HERE for 30, 20 or 15 dollars an hour in wages when they can build it all in Mexico, India and Asia for around 50 CENTS, or maybe two dollars, an hour where people are so desperate they'll do anything for a job? Is that the kind of world you want? Scary.
Are all workers now free from unsafe work, discrimination and harassment and exploitation? They sure as are not.
A great example of corporate greed is Kellogs. They have a plant here in London and have locked out nearly 1000 employees because, even though their stocks are up across the board, they are using the recession as an excuse to eliminate full time jobs here and FORCE overtime on people. They want to increase the number of temps who sit around waiting for calls to work while failing to replace retired full time workers. This is what companies and heads in management do to people in every industry in our country. Wake up. |
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| DigiNut |
Any mechanical engineers on this board? I'd like to build a portable catapult to fling loaded garbage bags over (or preferably at) the picket lines from a distance.
We can load it onto the top of a pickup truck and do drive-by dumpings! |
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| Jayx1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by StereoPrincess
but apartments get pick up don't they? |
Not all of them. Only those with private contractors |
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| musicsnob_NOT |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Smitty20
All of you are basically overlooking pretty much EVERY societal reality, even in Canada. Frankly, you're so high on this idea of the "individual is in control of everything he or she does in her life and if they do not succeed it is their fault" that it's quite off putting and, in my opinion, demonstrates an extreme lack of understanding and caring about anyone other than yourself. You sound like right wing Republican voting Americans.
Where exactly was it written and from what source were the supposed main issues reported?
I agree about the banking sick time. At the City of London, they resolved that in the late 1990s fairly amicably. Sick days are provided but there have also been recent attendance programs to spook people into coming into work legitimately sick to save "money". That is bull. We live in a northern climate. People get sick fairly often and should be entitled to a reasonable amount of time off without fear of losing their job. Again, we're talking about quality of life/standard of living vs. being "competitive" and cost cutting, etc, etc. You know, when you start eliminating jobs that actually pay decent salaries, people have less money to buy things and the economy starts to suffer....OH WAIT!!! Isn't that KIND OF WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW? :rolleyes:
You think it's ok for every employer to be able to mandate when employees take off their time? Really? I'm glad you're not my boss. Oh, can't have any summer holidays with the family because my boss told me I can't have any time off until Christmas. Get ing real dude.
Unions were created to do all those things that you listed. They're still doing them and are still needed. Does everybody still make a fair wage in all industries? They sure don't. If anything, wages are being driven DOWN all across the board because of the fact that we have the HIGHEST cost of labour BECAUSE our standard of living and wages are higher than the vast majority of countries. Anyone who argues that salaries have kept pace with inflation and the rising costs of living over the last few decades is smoking that I really want. Besides, what's the incentive for a manufacturing company, willing to work with a union or not, to build HERE for 30, 20 or 15 dollars an hour in wages when they can build it all in Mexico, India and Asia for around 50 CENTS, or maybe two dollars, an hour where people are so desperate they'll do anything for a job? Is that the kind of world you want? Scary.
Are all workers now free from unsafe work, discrimination and harassment and exploitation? They sure as are not.
A great example of corporate greed is Kellogs. They have a plant here in London and have locked out nearly 1000 employees because, even though their stocks are up across the board, they are using the recession as an excuse to eliminate full time jobs here and FORCE overtime on people. They want to increase the number of temps who sit around waiting for calls to work while failing to replace retired full time workers. This is what companies and heads in management do to people in every industry in our country. Wake up. |
Why don't you focus on the strike here by the inside and outside workers. If you read anything in the news in the last 2 weeks (other than your left wing socialist text books) you would know the main issue is the sick days. See the link below.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/st...leave-bank.html
I also know the issues since I am affected directly by this strike and in fact may have to temporarily lay off employees if the strike goes on too long. I deal with the inside and outside workers every day of the year. The inside and outside workers do not have unsafe work environments at the City of Toronto, they get paid above those doing the exact same jobs in the private sector, they have jobs for life (after 10 years service) and they have extremely good benefits (even if they have to give up the banking sick days). So tell me for what reason should they be on strike? The City of Toronto's finances are a disaster for many reasons including their choise not to take on the unions and their out of control benefits until now. You have even said that London did this not too long ago. So without trying to generalizations and bringing other companies and situations into this discussion, defend THIS (since you like to use caps to make a point) strike by the City of Toronto inside and outside workers?
Just to answer your question about vacation time. Many jobs limit when you can take vacation time and for the most part can only have a certain amount of employees off at one time. A company with 10 employees probably can't allow 6 employees to have the same week off of work since when they came back the job wouldn't be there. Teachers can't take time off during the school year. Using your logic a teacher would be able to take the last 2 weeks off of work in September just as they are getting into the school year just because they want to. Its just one of the sacrafices you make when you accept certain jobs. |
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| Jayx1 |
Bottom line is that in this recession anyone with a job should consider themselves lucky. Especially when the city is broke, the country is broke, and china and india are kicking our uncompetitive asses to the curb. We need to tighten our belts across the board or we are going to fall quickly into the third world. There is no doubt about it. Unless we act quickly to lower our costs of living, taxes and bureaucracy this recession is only the beginning.
The days of largesse are over. I wish unions and most canadians would understand that.
Also calling people "morons" because of how they vote is not right. Calling the people in power who they voted for morons though is perfectly acceptable LOL |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT
Why don't you focus on the strike here by the inside and outside workers. If you read anything in the news in the last 2 weeks (other than your left wing socialist text books) you would know the main issue is the sick days. See the link below.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/st...leave-bank.html
I also know the issues since I am affected directly by this strike and in fact may have to temporarily lay off employees if the strike goes on too long. I deal with the inside and outside workers every day of the year. The inside and outside workers do not have unsafe work environments at the City of Toronto, they get paid above those doing the exact same jobs in the private sector, they have jobs for life (after 10 years service) and they have extremely good benefits (even if they have to give up the banking sick days). So tell me for what reason should they be on strike? The City of Toronto's finances are a disaster for many reasons including their choise not to take on the unions and their out of control benefits until now. You have even said that London did this not too long ago. So without trying to generalizations and bringing other companies and situations into this discussion, defend THIS (since you like to use caps to make a point) strike by the City of Toronto inside and outside workers?
Just to answer your question about vacation time. Many jobs limit when you can take vacation time and for the most part can only have a certain amount of employees off at one time. A company with 10 employees probably can't allow 6 employees to have the same week off of work since when they came back the job wouldn't be there. Teachers can't take time off during the school year. Using your logic a teacher would be able to take the last 2 weeks off of work in September just as they are getting into the school year just because they want to. Its just one of the sacrafices you make when you accept certain jobs. |
Dude. I am a teacher. I obviously accepted the fact that the next 30 odd years of my life will be structured along the school year. I'm fine with that. Do you have summers off? :)
How do you know that Toronto city workers all have safe work environments? In London, there were grievances about unsafe work conditions regularly, or supervisors asking injured workers to do certain tasks even though they have documented injuries. That stuff goes on all the time. Of course, the flip side is true. The corporation pushes safety and if you don't follow procedure, you're up 's creek if you get injured. There are examples of both and I've personally seen instances that required the intervention of the union, no question. Worker exploitation is still a real issue.
Anyway, if banking sick time/early retirement is the main sticking point, then if I were a member of that union, I probably wouldn't have voted to strike. London CUPE members just extended their contract with a small raise and no slashes to the benefits. It was a fair deal from what I heard from old work friends. I'm not familiar with how the City of Toronto operates. Besides, perhaps the story is being swayed a certain way...did you ever consider that? Negotiations are closed door affairs and only certain bits come through. There could be a sticking point like forcing workers to go on continental shifts (12 hours) or working midnights alone (considered unsafe by many). There could be all kinds of issue that the general public of a city would never consider in the collective bargaining process because it never will affect them since it's not their job.
My main point, if it wasn't obvious, is that I take issue union bashing that goes on too often without serious consideration by people. Some of it is just uninformed, impulsive, whiney banter. |
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| Dj Smitty20 |
| quote: | Originally posted by musicsnob_NOT
Why don't you focus on the strike here by the inside and outside workers. If you read anything in the news in the last 2 weeks (other than your left wing socialist text books) you would know the main issue is the sick days. See the link below.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/st...leave-bank.html
Just to answer your question about vacation time. Many jobs limit when you can take vacation time and for the most part can only have a certain amount of employees off at one time. A company with 10 employees probably can't allow 6 employees to have the same week off of work since when they came back the job wouldn't be there. Teachers can't take time off during the school year. Using your logic a teacher would be able to take the last 2 weeks off of work in September just as they are getting into the school year just because they want to. Its just one of the sacrafices you make when you accept certain jobs. |
Ok, but we're not talking about small companies. Usually, that kind of thing - arranging vacation time - can be amicably resolved among the employees themselves. I'm talking about a city work yard that operates with say 1000 employees on districts (streets or roads), aquatics, facilities, parks, arenas, community centres, tourist attracitons, sanitation, etc, etc. They purposefully hire temporary or seasonal workers to cover increased workloads in the summer months.
Why, in that environment, where so many people are trained to do the same job, why an employee can't use their 4 or 5 weeks of vacation how they see fit? Management will actually fight workers on this. Some people will take the union BS way too far, but a lot of people in a lot of work environments legitimately need representation. |
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| Abercrombie |
| quote: | Originally posted by DigiNut
Any mechanical engineers on this board? I'd like to build a portable catapult to fling loaded garbage bags over (or preferably at) the picket lines from a distance.
We can load it onto the top of a pickup truck and do drive-by dumpings! |
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| DigiNut |
Sigh. Some people take the Keynesian bull they teach in school far too seriously. Almost all of what the unions were originally fighting for is already in our labour code. I'll bet 96 sick days that the majority of people who talk up the unions have never read one single word out of the ESA.
Anyway, back to the more important topic:
TRASH CANNON!
C'mon, who's with me? AJ, you've got the right idea, but it's too low-tech. I want this to be unmanned, so we can mount it on top of a pickup truck and do it without getting caught. The giant-rubber-band method is too inaccurate, there's a risk of missing the picketers and hitting an innocent bystander, or worse, a cop.
I'm talking about a massive air cannon, like this one:
Thoughts? |
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| Abercrombie |
| i think we might get cought |
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