Originally posted by Kysora
I don't see how you guys can possibly think it's an objective measure of quality comparing tracks that are good enough to be remembered 12 years later, with the sort of stuff that's played commercially today that'll be forgotten long before that.
Technology might have made the standard of acceptable quality for live shows, radio, etc. a little lower, but I don't see how you can think EDM is worse now than it used to be by any objective standard.
you can. Is it objective ? Would you be able to tell good food from bad ? A good movie from a bad movie ? Music can be compared and critiqued just like anything else. There are pretty clear indicators of quality in music. Some things are a little too subjective but redundancy for example, that is a basic qualifier of bad art. IF something has been done before and a track is doing it, then that is something that isn't good or interesting.
If you know how things are made, know enough music from different eras to be able to see the trends, notice what is different , what isn't , then a judgement can be rather valid.
A track that is the same track because almost everything is the same doesn't need to exist. There is nothing gained. That would be bad music.
Everything is really a comparison tho. There is no ultimate bad. But that is how you critique it In relation to what has been done, you can analyse something and point out why it is poor , lacking in substance and as I mentioned redundant.
For example
dubstep.
that new american reincarnation was rather novel. It was different and sounded interesting. That was until the next 20 tracks were pretty much the same track but with the same sounds placed in a slightly different configuration. And that made it bad. It stopped adding value. Nothing was being developed changed or explored. Brostep, was actually really neat. The first 4 tracks were cool. But nobody got past those 4 tracks. every other track is just those 4 tracks. Like Vivaldi.
Kysora
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
you can. Is it objective ? Would you be able to tell good food from bad ? A good movie from a bad movie ? Music can be compared and critiqued just like anything else.
right, I get that, but whenever people mention tracks being of a higher quality back around 2000, they reference tracks that have stood the test of time since then. the fact that after 10-12 years you guys haven't forgotten about them or lost interest is a pretty clear indicator that they're quality tracks.
then when you talk about modern music, it's all beatport top 100 and and armin and it's ing nonsense. I'd be laughed out of this forum if I said music from 1999 was because Sandstorm was one of the biggest hits from that year, but when we start talking about today's EDM suddenly ASOT becomes the golden standard of objective musical quality and originality. come on.
Looney4Clooney
beatport 100 is underground dance music. So i don't really think your comparison is fair. even the underground music that should be interesting and cutting edge is brutal. Half the tracks don't even meet the technical requirements one would have to attain to release an EP in 2000. That is something less open to subjectivity. The mixes are awful. The music, well that is more subjective but it is really hard to find anything worth a listen.
Beatflux
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
With....
and....
...I got both your points, and they have merit but that's not it.
The thing is, I know, going in that it's not going to be this new shiny thing, and that familiarity makes us want more. It's our need to be stimulated with something new, but the quality has sunk so low, I'm actually happy to take something that has already been done to some degree (not a varbatim ripoff) as long as it's well made and interesting.
My taste in music hasn't really changed that much, so its not that. Sure, there are tracks that I found ok or maybe decent that now I go, it wasn't all that and probably would not play out as things move on, but the core music, the stuff I LOVED then I still find as inspiration as I first heard it. Every so often someone comes to light who produces something (or a string of many somethings) that really floats my boat but it happens way less often. Again, it;s not about my tastes refining - most people, even invloved with other forms of music will tell you all EDM sounds the same and in some ways I agree; we see tiny minute changes in structure or sound and call it a different genre, but to go back to the basis of my point, I would just love to hear some good melodic prog, house and trance. It's not like I'm hoping for something so fantastically new. Just good musical composition and good groove....and that's what has greadually been lacking.
You want some objective proof of a quantifable metric of quality?
There are countless people who like modern EDM, who were not even in to EDM when these records were made, and they all get blown away by them? Why? There's no personal nostalgia for them. There's no connection - It's just great ing music, the likes of which is not being produced in the same abundance today.
And these are just the tracks that were made around 1999. What about the many years before that which also had incredibly good music in volumes? Now compare these to the average trance and prog you hear now. All the big tracks now seem like they're being produced specifically to kiss armin arse, to get airplay on ASOT, becuase the uneducated are being told that's good music.
So now we're back on topic, because it's all about finding sounds that work and having some talent to make them work
Trance seemed much more musical back then. When I listen to a song I just want to be enraptured in one good hook and that seems harder and harder to come by.
Vector A
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
My taste in music hasn't really changed that much, so its not that.
But that was kind of my point. Generally a person's music tastes stop changing past a certain age. And then people stop making the kind of music that you grew up liking, and so you like music less in general.
And I do think you can argue that specific genres go downhill. If you want to say that prog or trance specifically have lost it, then I think that is more reasonable than saying music in general just sucks today, which is what I thought you were doing.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by Kysora
I don't see how you guys can possibly think it's an objective measure of quality comparing tracks that are good enough to be remembered 12 years later, with the sort of stuff that's played commercially today that'll be forgotten long before that.
Technology might have made the standard of acceptable quality for live shows, radio, etc. a little lower, but I don't see how you can think EDM is worse now than it used to be by any objective standard.
But it's not remembering them as such - As I said, people who were not even old enough at the time to be in to EDM have commented in that 1999 set thread about how good and how many great tracks there are.
We're also not comparing underground club music from 1999 to commercial music - we're comparing like for like and today's good stuff is just so much more scarce.
Just listen to those sets and you'll countless tracks that are great, and they are just from 1999. There's prog tracks and trance tracks amounting to over 15 hours of what anyone into trance or prog would say is great music. you simply can't do that with say 2010 or 2011 offerings.
So no, you can't objectively state anything about musical tastes but you can do comparative analysis, and the general state of EDM in terms of musical quality has dropped, and again, I believe this is due to the points I raised about superstar (douchebag) dj culture, everyone jumping on the bandwagon and how easy it is to make a track now.
Don't get me wrong, there are some great new producers around now and some very interesting/well made tracks, but they are so few in comparison that you literally have to hunt them down whereas 10-15 years ago, there were random producers springing up everywhere making great tracks that I'd have to pick and choose which ones I could afford.
DJ RANN
quote:
Originally posted by Vector A
But that was kind of my point. Generally a person's music tastes stop changing past a certain age. And then people stop making the kind of music that you grew up liking, and so you like music less in general.
And I do think you can argue that specific genres go downhill. If you want to say that prog or trance specifically have lost it, then I think that is more reasonable than saying music in general just sucks today, which is what I thought you were doing.
I hear you but the "taste" I am speaking of is trance in general. I mean, it's not like I'm narrowing it down to a specific microgenre - my taste as such is prog, house and trance in just about all varieties. And.....
quote:
Originally posted by Beatflux
Trance seemed much more musical back then. When I listen to a song I just want to be enraptured in one good hook and that seems harder and harder to come by.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. Songwriting in trance now is so ing basic. Listen to ASOT or a Clublife set from two of what are considered the most "popular" producers/DJ's and all the ing tracks have formulaic structure, with the same aesthetic, and no musical diversity or creativity.
At the extreme end of this problem you have House Mafia, Gutta and Afrotwat who seem to be hell bent on reducing dance music down it it's lowest possible common denominator, sequencing by numbers, marketing products; not music.
Now again, go back to those tracks pre 2000 and you'll hear inventive songwriting, and these were tracks played by the "popular" Dj's of their time including Armin and Tiesto. You'll actually hear crescendo's constructed of note arrangements - not just ascending white noise or obvious linear LFO curves (I have to say it's disturbing how many tracks now just use these as their drop). You'll also hear interesting structure in terms arrangement, even if they do follow a certain DJ friendly template (which has got way out of hand now). You'll hear song programming dictated by the songwriting (and I don't just mean vocals) not to mention just instrumental tracks that don't need a cliched Nadia Ali performance over it just to sell a few more downloads or get play on ASOT.
I do get that you can't compare the commercial cheese (the sandstorm point) to underground music but where are the great underground tracks of 2011? Where are these interesting trance and prog arrangements? Where is the songwriting. I just don't hear it, yet there is so much more output to choose from. And that's my whole point. compare
I'm not saying all music has gone downhill - as L4C said, dubstep was interesting and innovating but killed itself by extreme niche repetition, Tech-house keeps re-inventing itself, and House, well, House is a feeling ;)
BritishLizard
Well put mate. Very tastefully written.
SYSTEM-J
quote:
Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
beatport 100 is underground dance music.
Have you actually looked at the Beatport 100? If you think Axwell, Avicii, Fedde Le Grand (with Coldplay, no less!), David Guetta, Tiesto, Steve Aoki, Afrojack and Digitalism are "underground dance music" you are a ing idiot. Most of those tracks are directly comparable to stuff like Sandstorm, Alice Deejay or the Vengaboys from a decade ago.
quote:
Originally posted by DJ RANN
I do get that you can't compare the commercial cheese (the sandstorm point) to underground music but where are the great underground tracks of 2011? Where are these interesting trance and prog arrangements?
You mean stuff like this?
Please don't talk about "trance in general", RANN.
Subtle
I dont think Trance has ever been better than now, if ur willing to actually listen to new stuff for more than a couple of minutes or seconds, there are tons of excellent tracks released!
Im totally amazed by this latest compilation by Paul Oakenfold, best mix from him since Great Wall in 2004.
Yes, its released on Armada, yes it contain vocal tracks, yes its Oakenfold.. and i love it!
Those who say Trance is dead, are those who have given it up long time ago.
Vector A
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You mean stuff like this?
That last one actually exemplifies a problem I have with many current "respectable" trance tunes: they have melodies that somehow manage not to seem like melodies. I find it hard to explain exactly what is going on. There are clearly notes flowing through the speakers, played with nice "trance" synth noises, but nothing really stands out and I feel no emotion from the experience. In spite of the pounding beat and profusion of notes and cool atmospherics it all seems lifeless somehow. But whatever, there are plenty of exciting things happening outside the world of trance, and I am happy with seeking out other kinds of music these days.
First tune you posted was quite good, though.
Looney4Clooney
quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Have you actually looked at the Beatport 100? If you think Axwell, Avicii, Fedde Le Grand (with Coldplay, no less!), David Guetta, Tiesto, Steve Aoki, Afrojack and Digitalism are "underground dance music" you are a ing idiot. Most of those tracks are directly comparable to stuff like Sandstorm, Alice Deejay or the Vengaboys from a decade ago.
Please don't talk about "trance in general", RANN.
if it doesn't chart anywhere but Beatport, that would be "underground"
listing the 5 producers that are actually on real charts doesn't account for the other 95. Are their more refined lists ? Why do they make it so hard for people to buy music.
Honestly, they should just pay people to go thru the music and make a list of the music that doesn't actually suck. Dj sets are victim of the bad music. They have no other choice. Any dj knows that all tracks substitute the previous one in one way or another. Dance music has a shelf life of 2 weeks as a dj so you are continuously replacing a track with a different track that does the same. But people are getting desperate .I honestly would rather hear classics from the last 10 years.
