Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
if it doesn't chart anywhere but Beatport, that would be "underground"
You have a very strange idea of "underground". By this logic, only 0.001% of dance records are not underground, because only 40-50 records a year every make it into the pop charts. If a track stays on the Beatport Top 100 for a little while, and probably does similarly well on other digital download sites, let's say a couple of hundreds DJs buy it. They all go and play that track at their club night or on their radio show, where 200-300 clubbers/listeners hear it. By the end, that track has been heard by tens of thousands of people. Take a totally random track off the Top 100 - Eats Everything - The Size. Never heard of this track, but it's currently at #47. It has over 25,000 plays on Youtube, and it's only been out for two months.
Also, stop exaggerating. I named 8 producers in the Top 20. It's not as if the rest of the chart nose-dives into Basic Channel side-projects. There's a Calvin Harris track at #67 that has 12 million Youtube hits. And you're telling me this is a chart of underground dance music. Sure thing.
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Honestly, they should just pay people to go thru the music and make a list of the music that doesn't actually suck.
Actually there are people who get paid for searching through music and finding stuff that doesn't suck. We call them "DJs".
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by Vector A
That last one actually exemplifies a problem I have with many current "respectable" trance tunes: they have melodies that somehow manage not to seem like melodies. I find it hard to explain exactly what is going on. There are clearly notes flowing through the speakers, played with nice "trance" synth noises, but nothing really stands out and I feel no emotion from the experience. In spite of the pounding beat and profusion of notes and cool atmospherics it all seems lifeless somehow. But whatever, there are plenty of exciting things happening outside the world of trance, and I am happy with seeking out other kinds of music these days.
Meh, I totally disagree. I'm definitely not one to listen to this Mistique-prog sound for the sake of it - I've been openly critical of it around these parts many times before. I heard this Relaunch track on a J00F Global Trance Grooves mix that I was only playing because my friend Jon Cockle was on the guest mix. I had this mix on while I was walking over to a friend's house, and when this track came on I was just completely lost in it, to the extent when I got to his front door I honestly did not want to knock on it, because it would mean turning the music off. I wanted to find some way of making the journey last five minutes longer. That's the good old "lost in a trance" bull feeling we all got back in the day, that made us love the music in the first place and that we complain we can never find anymore.
I feel a lot of emotion from this track, to the extent of it completely dominating my emotional state when I listen to it. I think your issue is you like trance/prog to have some kind of dominant and catchy melodic motifs that make the music accessible, which is why you prefer the Timewave track. I don't think you'd make a "no melody" complaint about an ambient track, and trance was originally a fusion of ambient and techno. The EP this track comes from is even called "The Art Of Ambience".
I appreciate that you're not claiming to state fact here, but there just seems to be a faint implication that people only like these tracks because they sound "respectable" and in a quality-starved world we exaggerate any respectable-sounding record into something amazing when it's not. I just want to make clear that I personally get just as powerful a reaction from tracks like that as anything Sasha ever played back in the good old 1999.
Vector A
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I appreciate that you're not claiming to state fact here, but there just seems to be a faint implication that people only like these tracks because they sound "respectable" and in a quality-starved world we exaggerate any respectable-sounding record into something amazing when it's not.
No, not at all. It's good that you are still finding trance and prog you dig, even if I mostly cannot get into it anymore. It has gotten to the point that my "exploration" of today's trance now consists of little more than dropping by DJ Promo to nab a few sets.
:p
Beatflux
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Have you actually looked at the Beatport 100? If you think Axwell, Avicii, Fedde Le Grand (with Coldplay, no less!), David Guetta, Tiesto, Steve Aoki, Afrojack and Digitalism are "underground dance music" you are a ing idiot. Most of those tracks are directly comparable to stuff like Sandstorm, Alice Deejay or the Vengaboys from a decade ago.
You mean stuff like this?
Please don't talk about "trance in general", RANN.
These aren't anything special. They are well produced, but they aren't pushing any envelopes.
The only thing making 2 of the tracks stand out is melody. Other than that, there's your standard acid and random FX littered throughout the track.
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by Beatflux
These aren't anything special. They are well produced, but they aren't pushing any envelopes.
The only thing making 2 of the tracks stand out is melody. Other than that, there's your standard acid and random FX littered throughout the track.
Nobody asked me for tracks pushing envelopes. If I posted something innovative, you would bitch that "This isn't trance", thus presenting a paradox where you want generic music that's also pushing boundaries. Generic progress is extremely incremental, change bleeds across hundreds of tracks. Do you think most of those tracks in those 1999 sets RANN is jizzing over were pushing envelopes when they came out?
cryophonik
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Nobody asked me for tracks pushing envelopes. If I posted something innovative, you would bitch that "This isn't trance", thus presenting a paradox where you want generic music that's also pushing boundaries. Generic progress is extremely incremental, change bleeds across hundreds of tracks. Do you think most of those tracks in those 1999 sets RANN is jizzing over were pushing envelopes when they came out?
Dammit, you beat me to it! This whole idea of "pushing the envelope", being "original", and having "your own sound" is something that newbs like to talk about, but doesn't play out in reality as much as they think it does. The mainstream stuff is pretty cohesive in terms of style because that's the way the market works - give people what they want to hear and be successful (e.g., Top 100 Beatport), or be a starving artist and hope to influence the next generation. The true pioneers are rarely even noticed or, in the most extreme cases, considered outcasts. Regardless, the talent level in both camps ranges from total hack to pure excellence.
DJ RANN
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Have you actually looked at the Beatport 100? If you think Axwell, Avicii, Fedde Le Grand (with Coldplay, no less!), David Guetta, Tiesto, Steve Aoki, Afrojack and Digitalism are "underground dance music" you are a ing idiot. Most of those tracks are directly comparable to stuff like Sandstorm, Alice Deejay or the Vengaboys from a decade ago.
Very true, but Vengaboys, Alice DeeJay and Darude were not mainstays of big so called reputable clubs/venues or got airplay on anything other than major commercial radio - you cannot say the same of the latter day offenders you listed
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You mean stuff like this?
Please don't talk about "trance in general", RANN.
One swallow does not make a summer - There is no way in hell you're going to be able to convince me, or anyone on here, that trance (yes, especially in general) is anywhere near the qualitative state it was. I mean, christ, I don't think the UK even has a major weekly trance night anymore (I know London doesn't now but back in 1999 you had 5 x 2000+ capacity regular trance nights on any given weekend and that's not even including special events).
However, I do agree with you that some good music is about, like the stuff you posted, but no where in the abundance it was. You simply can't pick out, say 200 outstanding tracks from 2011 or 2010 that you'd still rate in a couple of year's time, but I bet you can easily do that with trance from 10 years ago.
I think it's the same with nearly any craft or even production related thing; take furniture for example. It used to take a long apprenticeship under a master and a highly skilled hand with expensive and proprietary tools to make a chair or table. That meant costs were high to produce and accessibility to production methods not easy resulting in things only getting made that were quality, by skilled people, producing things and could be sold at a fitting price.
Now 99% of furniture is cheap that doesn't last. Sure, there's still craftsmen out there making some nice stuff but it's a fraction of what it used to be, and the overall quality is turd these days even of more expensive stuff.
It's the same thing - some talented people are out there making great tracks but IMO it;s less than it used to be even though it's never been easier or cheaper to make a track.
DJ RANN
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Nobody asked me for tracks pushing envelopes. If I posted something innovative, you would bitch that "This isn't trance", thus presenting a paradox where you want generic music that's also pushing boundaries. Generic progress is extremely incremental, change bleeds across hundreds of tracks. Do you think most of those tracks in those 1999 sets RANN is jizzing over were pushing envelopes when they came out?
Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive so that completely irrelevant - they can either push boundaries or not - who cares? It about of enjoyment of a certain type of music. It's dance music, meant club soundsystems that are usually less than perfect, not the cultivation of fine wine. All I give a about is whether it's decent, and that may or may not be contributed to by it being innovative or in the mold of something else that came before it.
It's kind of ironic that your own TA handle comes from a label that was very dominant in the form of music we're discussing here, yet you were not around to enjoy it first time around for yourself. Makes me wonder if your motives for trying to discredit that music over favor for modern (and IMO far more mediocre) music is a matter of personal connection unobtainability for the former.
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by DJ RANN
Very true, but Vengaboys, Alice DeeJay and Darude were not mainstays of big so called reputable clubs/venues or got airplay on anything other than major commercial radio - you cannot say the same of the latter day offenders you listed
You have an extremely rose-tinted view of how things were. Darude and Alice DeeJay appeared on compilations for the likes of Cream, Gatecrasher, Euphoria and other major trance club nights, and they were played in those clubs. Granted, that's doesn't mean they were played in Tresor or The Orbit, but you don't hear Tiesto and Fedde Le Grand in Fabric, do you?
And yes, trance has undeniably gone down the ter to some extent, but your comparisons are unfair and riddled with confirmation bias. Countless people in 1999 were already complaining that trance was , that it had become over-commercial and was a clubland plague - to them the prospect of five 2000+ capacity trance nights in London alone was just a sign of how bad things were. Yes, Sasha and co were still killing it, but you're basically comparing sets of Sasha anthems to ASOT playlists. Flip the coin and compare modern J00F sets to what Judge Jules was twatting out at that time and things don't look so rosey, do they?
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It's kind of ironic that your own TA handle comes from a label that was very dominant in the form of music we're discussing here, yet you were not around to enjoy it first time around for yourself. Makes me wonder if your motives for trying to discredit that music over favor for modern (and IMO far more mediocre) music is a matter of personal connection unobtainability for the former.
I don't know where you think my name comes from, but save me the Slychoanalysis. Do you really think I've never heard 1999-era trance in a club? I have this position (which is not "discrediting" legitimately good old music, of which my love is well documented) because I used to be exactly like you jaded s. Couldn't find anything I liked on Beatport, felt disconnected from popular music trends, felt like the only good music I could find was in the past. Right up until May 2009 when I went out in Manchester and found a tiny underground trance and prog night playing exactly the I was looking for. Immediately, I could find good music on Beatport. Started making and sharing mixes on TA of new music, and everyone was going "Oh , this is actually awesome". Everything changed with a very simple realisation - it's out there if you look for it, and when you do your frustrations instantly melt away. That's what makes this music underground.
Your position is essentially an extremely predictable one, to the point where your actual individual opinion barely matters, so totally do you fulfil the stereotype. The music and era you think is best, your opinions on current music, everything is almost totally dictated by the time you happened to start listening to music. You've seen Human Traffic, you laughed at the "better back in the day" scene. This was happening far earlier than 2011, or 1999. Every single generation of music fans ends up exactly like you, and yet for some reason you always try and convince yourself that in your case it's actually correct and objective, as though music has been steadily deteriorating in quality throughout history.
And for 's sake, stop equating "music" with "trance". You have any idea how narrow-minded you sound when you do that?
DJ RANN
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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
You have an extremely rose-tinted view of how things were. Darude and Alice DeeJay appeared on compilations for the likes of Cream, Gatecrasher, Euphoria and other major trance club nights, and they were played in those clubs. Granted, that's doesn't mean they were played in Tresor or The Orbit, but you don't hear Tiesto and Fedde Le Grand in Fabric, do you?
And yes, trance has undeniably gone down the ter to some extent, but your comparisons are unfair and riddled with confirmation bias. Countless people in 1999 were already complaining that trance was , that it had become over-commercial and was a clubland plague - to them the prospect of five 2000+ capacity trance nights in London alone was just a sign of how bad things were. Yes, Sasha and co were still killing it, but you're basically comparing sets of Sasha anthems to ASOT playlists. Flip the coin and compare modern J00F sets to what Judge Jules was twatting out at that time and things don't look so rosey, do they?
I don't know where you think my name comes from, but save me the Slychoanalysis. Do you really think I've never heard 1999-era trance in a club? I have this position (which is not "discrediting" legitimately good old music, of which my love is well documented) because I used to be exactly like you jaded s. Couldn't find anything I liked on Beatport, felt disconnected from popular music trends, felt like the only good music I could find was in the past. Right up until May 2009 when I went out in Manchester and found a tiny underground trance and prog night playing exactly the I was looking for. Immediately, I could find good music on Beatport. Started making and sharing mixes on TA of new music, and everyone was going "Oh , this is actually awesome". Everything changed with a very simple realisation - it's out there if you look for it, and when you do your frustrations instantly melt away. That's what makes this music underground.
Your position is essentially an extremely predictable one, to the point where your actual individual opinion barely matters, so totally do you fulfil the stereotype. The music and era you think is best, your opinions on current music, everything is almost totally dictated by the time you happened to start listening to music. You've seen Human Traffic, you laughed at the "better back in the day" scene. This was happening far earlier than 2011, or 1999. Every single generation of music fans ends up exactly like you, and yet for some reason you always try and convince yourself that in your case it's actually correct and objective, as though music has been steadily deteriorating in quality throughout history.
And for 's sake, stop equating "music" with "trance". You have any idea how narrow-minded you sound when you do that?
I had this super long response all typed out, that went on about how I completely agree (and have posted it in another thread) that 1999 was actually the end of decent trance of that period, and that I'd rather you compare joof in 2011 to the joof I regularly saw in the late 90's paying to just 300 of us in a dark basement (than comparing him to Judge Jules of all people), and that even though you may have heard that music in clubs you didn't hear it at the time or in it's context so don't project your post-period analysis on my real experience etc, etc....
....but my internet went down and lost the whole bloody thing :whip:
Long story short, yes even some big clubs played cheese now and then but again it's the exception to the standard, just like being able to find really good trance now, that will stand the test of time.
You can find it, and I happy you did, but look at what you went through and we all have to go through to find it these days. It's just not the same quality in those quantities and you're fighting a lost cause bo trying to convince anyone otherwise. My position, if anything is more valid as I I can tell you first hand how it was before, during and after things went wrong. If I were still in London, It's not like I could choose from a bunch of trance clubs on a given weekend. I can't even choose from a load of small underground events. It's just not there anymore and that's my whole point.
And actually, no, I've never seen human traffic, for the very reason that everything I read, heard or saw of it was just childishly obvious stereotyping, centering on all the things that actually were wrong with the scene just for laughs, rather than actually representing the time.
I love EDM. I love some of the prog I'm hearing right now. I seriously like what's happening with the more esoteric electronica, especially here in the states, but this is Tranceaddict, and we're talking about trance, so stop ing telling me we can't talk about trance or trance in general. If not here, then nowhere. And no, It's not how fans all grow up to be the same as you state - so many people commented on the 1999 thread, and your own epic mixes that they wished music was like that now, so they try to emulate it in their own productions.
RyanVice
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Originally posted by EgosXII
He's not giving up downloading illegal synths till he finds the right preset. Jesus.
ing LOL
SYSTEM-J
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Originally posted by DJ RANN
You can find it, and I happy you did, but look at what you went through and we all have to go through to find it these days. It's just not the same quality in those quantities and you're fighting a lost cause bo trying to convince anyone otherwise.
Well you. I'll fight my losing battle, because if everyone who is sat around on the Internet bitching about the state of trance, never going out, never looking for tracks, never putting on parties actually got out of their ing chair and put some effort into the scene, we'd be 3x better off right away. So many lethargic people are just convinced things are irrevocably , they don't even try to fix things. I buy the tracks (and pay for them), I make the mixes and I go out as often as I can find the nights. I've travelled hundreds of miles to go to underground trance nights. There are DJs on this forum who I've gone to see, playing in front of 20-30 people. I love the music, I support it. You people seem to have no realisation that a scene, an actual underground scene, not the commodified cash-cow that was '90s superclub culture, is the sum total of the effort everyone involved puts in. Underground trance, good trance, is in such a sorry state because none of you are putting any effort in. If it isn't at the end of your street with a big flyer telling you what time to arrive, you aren't interested. If it isn't in the Beatport Top 100, it doesn't exist.
