So what is the solution then apart from a total meltdown that forces a revolution?
And a merry Christmas to you too :)
stren
quote:
Originally posted by SuspicionVandit
here's a picture of michelle dela cruz valenzuela santa maria christo playa vera rodriguez in a bikini
I'm pretty sure she's a tranny
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by Fledz
So what is the solution then apart from a total meltdown that forces a revolution?
well, what problem are we talking about?
Capitalizt
quote:
Originally posted by DaRoZa
you still haven't explained how a capitalist society somehow devoid of government would have its pandora's box shut when it comes to exploiting the peon majority..
First off I reject your assumption that "exploitation" is exclusive to capitalism, or even that it is somehow an evil or unnatural thing. Do employers want to pay workers more than they need to (more than other people are willing to do the job for)? Do they want to sell their product for less than people are willing to pay for it? Of course not.. You and krypt do the SAME DAMN THING every time you gave a garage sale, or every time you sell (or buy) something on Ebay. People on every level and in EVERY socioeconomic system always act in their own self interest and try to get the most for their money.. The difference is if an businessman doesn't like you, the worst he can do is fire you or give you a dirty look when you visit his shop. Capitalism is based on respect for property rights and the non-initiation of physical force. Violence is not permitted in a proper free market (not to say there haven't been breaches, but those are the exception, not the rule.) In collectivist systems however the threat of government violence is institutionalized and required to achieve your desired ends. Nobody is claiming free markets automatically means heaven on earth and plenty for everyone, but it is the best system we have found for allocating resources efficiently and lifting the masses out of poverty..and given that it is based entirely on voluntary trade between consenting adults, but it is certainly the most moral system on earth.
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
How are you going to me what I mean? I meant what I meant.
:p
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton
You used a bad comparison either way. Mayan mythology? We'r talking about social problems here. Not some ancient mythology which won't mean when 2013 rolls around.
Eschatology knows no limits: the Earth is always going to end in just a few more years... don't be surprised if some lunatic claims he got the maths wrong and says the Mayans predicted the world would end in 2015, and then 2020, and then 2022...
DaRoZa
quote:
Originally posted by Capitalizt
First off I reject your assumption that "exploitation" is exclusive to capitalism, or even that it is somehow an evil or unnatural thing. Do employers want to pay workers more than they need to (more than other people are willing to do the job for)? Do they want to sell their product for less than people are willing to pay for it? Of course not.. You and krypt do the SAME DAMN THING every time you list something on Ebay or have a garage sale. People on every level and in EVERY socioeconomic system always act in their own self interest and try to get the most for their money.. The difference is if an businessman doesn't like you, the worst he can do is fire you or give you a dirty look when you visit his shop. Capitalism is based on respect for property rights and the non-initiation of physical force. Violence is not permitted in a proper free market (not to say there haven't been breaches, but those are the exception, not the rule.) In collectivist systems however the threat of government violence is institutionalized and required to achieve your desired ends. Nobody is claiming free markets automatically means heaven on earth and plenty for everyone, but it is the best system we have found for allocating resources efficiently and lifting the masses out of poverty..and given that it is based entirely on voluntary trade between consenting adults, but it is certainly the most moral system on earth.
once again i never said it was evil or took a stance against it, just said that exploitation happens and that's the way it is. it's capitalism and it's natural in any society that advances a little past the point where there is a division of labour (the butcher, the baker, candlestick maker...)
marx explains this relationship well, and why the worker ALWAYS gets shafted to some degree:
quote:
Let us take an example. For one shilling a laborer works all day long in the fields of a farmer, to whom he thus secures a return of two shillings. The farmer not only receives the replaced value which he has given to the day laborer, he has doubled it. Therefore, he has consumed the one shilling that he gave to the day laborer in a fruitful, productive manner. For the one shilling he has bought the labor-power of the day-laborer, which creates products of the soil of twice the value, and out of one shilling makes two. The day-laborer, on the contrary, receives in the place of his productive force, whose results he has just surrendered to the farmer, one shilling, which he exchanges for means of subsistence, which he consumes more or less quickly. The one shilling has therefore been consumed in a double manner – reproductively for the capitalist, for it has been exchanged for labor-power, which brought forth two shillings; unproductively for the worker, for it has been exchanged for means of subsistence which are lost for ever, and whose value he can obtain again only by repeating the same exchange with the farmer.
of course the poor farmer can save that shilling and capitalize himself eventually but he will have to take advantage of someone else to some extent to do so. like i said, the feudal ages best illustrate when this relationship started... after advances were made in agriculture land started being privately controlled by lords, and it wasn't long until serfs were bound to them, indebted for generations. the extra shilling kept by the landowner eventually let the owners become nobility and literally live like kings. it was pre big government, yet wasn't exactly glorious. most people were essentially slaves who doubled up as militia and it was just as violent as any other period in our history. there's a reason this time period overlaps with what's considered the ing "DARK" ages. a lot more than i have time to write about went on here that got the ball rolling towards a truly capitalist society (fetishism of commodity - the process in which value was attributed to intangible objects like gold etc) but opression and regulation in favor of the owners of the means of production was always going on, and this wasn't really recognized or toned down until the french revolution made ripples
as fledz and krypton touched on, marx later went on to argue that this relationship can only go on so long before it reaches tipping point - he predicted that the workers (of the entire economy, not individual countries one at a time) would get fed up and overthrow their rulers simultaneously... and every failed socialist/communist movement that we've seen so far is the result of a group of enthusiastic politicians saying "the time is now". but i think that even marx would agree that in today's globalized world this tipping point will take centuries longer than originally anticipated to happen, if it's even possible at all... but the disparity between rich and poor in the world does continue to grow whether it's all fair game or not. and the perpetuation of the relationship i quoted above will keep things moving this way as it is. once again you don't have to be pro socialist/communist reform to see things this way.
i don't think gov't regulation is the solution, i'm more of a libertarian than anything. but you can't argue that the negative parts of capitalism come solely from government. although government intervention often makes things worse too, you can't pass the buck away from the unbalanced nature of capitalism itself.
enydo
So yeah... stunningly gorgeous movie. It looked phenomenal and was a lot of fun to watch. The characters were way too shallow, nearly to a complete fault. They were more caricatures than anything, I don't know if there was a single one I actually liked.
The movie is superbly done, but the Fern Gullyhontas story has been done before, of course, so the narrative along with the characters feels contrived.
None the less, it is easy to get lost in the movie, and it is quite a moving experience besides all the faults. I thoroughly enjoyed it, was definitely worth seeing in Imax.
pmoisse
Saw this in 3D tonight without having seen any of the trailers before and only reading a few reviews.
Stunning movie. Great balance and interplay between the 3D of the forest world and the "real" world of, well, the real world. When Sully was in human form, there was minimal 3D effect, but when in forest form, was everywhere. Very well done and I didn't feel like they beat the CGI and 3D aspect to death (which is what I was worried would happen going in to the movie).
I liked the subtle references to other films, video games and history too. Valkyrie being the call-sign of the mothership was reminiscent of the beach assault in Apocalypse Now, and the Marine colonel similar to Robert Duvall. The Mechwarrior guys were neat too, which brought back the video game nerd in me. Having Sigourney Weaver involved felt a lot like Alien as well.
WittyHandle
quote:
Originally posted by pmoisse
The loaders felt a lot like Aliens as well.
Fx'd
dj_alfi
cool little movie. i would probably not have liked it as much if it hadn't been for them 3d glasses. as enydo said, pretty shallow charachters, and i also felt like the movie itself was a tad too long. it probably didn't help that they played 25 minutes of commercials before they started the movie! i was hearing alot of smokers that were sighing at the end. the battle/fighting scenes at the end looked spectacular, but i felt they were a little too drawn out, and at the last 15-20 minutes i was just waiting for the movie to end so i could get out of the theatre.
dj_alfi
spoiler:
it almost felt like the original script had all the nazi's.. err i mean navi's dieing in the final battle, but that was too depressive, and instead of re-writing it, they just added 30 minutes more of battle and said the navi's won instead..
Lira
quote:
Originally posted by dj_alfi
spoiler:
it almost felt like the original script had all the nazi's.. err i mean navi's dieing in the final battle, but that was too depressive, and instead of re-writing it, they just added 30 minutes more of battle and said the navi's won instead..
