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Israel/Hamas Conflict (pg. 9)
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| Viber |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I don't think living in the Palestine state or even living within European societies Muslims tend to be ostracized in does much to negate the tendency to fill the so-called void. As I said, earlier, there are always going to be extremists who are compensating for their own failures by blaming an ethnic group outside of their own (see my earlier White Power example) but I'm not just drawing assumptions from my own observations concerning Palestine and other radicalized Muslims, either. |
First of all, as Kylle already wrote, many Muslims in Europe are ostracized by choice - they have their own set of rules,moral standards,language and culture, they do not wish to assimilate in the European society.
Many of them are disgusted to live next to infidels and dream of the day in which they can force Sharia Law in the continent.
Its kinda funny to always wear the victim's hat even when you're given this great opportunity, "alright we got you out of Palestine, whats that? now the Swedes are out to get you? you still want to kill people because of Allah? bet we have free Education here!"
I do not like the comparison of Radical Islamists to any small minority in the US, radical Islam is on a much larger scale imo and has a more of a practical "hands on" approach.
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Authors such as Bill Powell, Arundhati Roy, and Naomi Klein have all chronicled somewhat endemic economic and social inequalities that exist, at great length. I even borrowed the comparison to Apartheid from Klein, earlier, and she extensively detailed the more recently occurring relationship between Israeli security firms and the ongoing conflict that has been raging for decades.
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Again, i don't like the comparisons of the Israeli-palestinian conflict to other conflicts throughout history, i don't think its right to assume that all the variables are the same and all the people are the same.
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The problem I have with your position is that it presents a very simplistic understanding of the issue. It seems to be saying that without radicalism, there would be no terrorism, as it attributes the consequence to its cause.
Unfortunately, the reasoning you're presenting seems to be the common logic applied to remedying the situation. Part of it is true - that if radicalism can be dispelled, the tendency to become radicalized is negated. Part of what it fails to take into account is that, if you do away with mythological elements in their entirety, you're still left with the causes, tactics, strategies, and evolution of guerrilla warfare. |
So you're suggesting that if we "undress" the Hamas from its Islamist characteristics we would get a standard rebellion group like any other place in the world.
I think we need to inspect the actions rather than their causes in this exercise.
Is bombing a public civilian place guerrilla warfare? does sending rockets into children's schools guerrilla warfare? is stabbing a kid in the chest just because he is a Jew considered guerrilla warfare?
If the Hamas only looked to destroy military targets then we had little argument here but that's not the case, lets differentiate between collateral damage in war and hate crimes.
Without Radical-Islam we would only have an argument about territories and that could have been resolved years ago, but with radical Islam we have to satisfy urges like revenge,honor,doing what Muhammad wanted us to do and being a Shahid. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Viber
First of all, as Kylle already wrote... |
I would not cite Kylle as a source you're using to hold your arguments together.
In the post I deleted, earlier, I pointed out that his claim about Muslims immigrants rejecting Western culture, which he then equated with homicidal motivations, resembles propaganda, in the United States, against Mexican Immigrants. You might not like the comparison to a "small minority" but the fact is that your equating all Muslims with those who are radical in the same fashion that Lou Dobbs equated all undocumented immigrants to the criminal element within that population.
The authors I cited weren't cited for a comparison to other conflicts. They were chosen because they speak specifically to the conflict under discussion.
RE: Guerrilla Warfare
(Taber is speaking of the guerrilla) tactics will be designed to wear the enemy down, by chipping away at the morale of government troops and by inducing the maximum expenditure of funds, material, and manpower in the effort to suppress him. <-- Essentially what has been achieved by terrorist action in Israel.
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Almost all modern governments are highly conscious of what journalism calls "world opinion." For sound reasons, mostly of an economic nature, they cannot afford to be condemned in the United Nations, they do not like to be visited by Human Rights Commissions or Freedom of the Press Committees; their need of foreign investment, foreign loans, foreign markets, satisfactory trade relationships, and so on, requires that they be members in more or less good standing of a larger community of interests. ...
...It follows that it must be the business of the guerrilla, and of his clandestine political organization in the cites, to destroy the stable image of the government, and so deny it credits, to dry up its sources of revenue, and to create dissension within the frightened owning classes, within the government bureaucracy (whose payrolls will be pinched), and within the military itself. ...
...In such circumstances, it will be a remarkable government that will not be driven to stern repressive measures-curfews, the suspension of civil liberties, a ban on popular assembly, illegal acts that can only deepen the popular opposition, creating a vicious circle of rebellion and repression until the economy is undermined, the social fabric torn beyond redemption, and the regime tottering on the verge of collapse. (pp. 20-21) <--- Quite similar to what has been occurring in Israel
~ Robert Taber, War of the Flea
The struggle in Iraq has produced many examples of how insurgent coercion can block government success. In the eyes of some, a government that cannot protect its people forfeits the right to rule...
Insurgents may use coercive force to provide security for people or to intimidate them and the legitimate security forces into active or passive support...
~U.S. Army Counterinsurgency Field Manual - the above are presented in more of a context relating groups that have a more direct relationship with the population they're trying to coerce. The function of the terrorism, in that context, relates ultimately to securing cooperation. The parallels, however, are still relevant as the reason to attack civilian populations has very little to do with 72 virgins and more to do with delegitimizing a government by proving that it cannot protect its populace. |
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| Kylle |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
The assumption you're implying is that every Muslim in Europe is as radicalized as your portrayal. |
Only if every Muslim in Europe is ostracized.
Oh, that was your implication, wasn't it? |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kylle
Oh, that was your implication, wasn't it? |
Once again, we seem to be under mistaken notions about what I may or may not be implying. Let me state, directly, without anything left unstated, to be implied later on:
You're a ing ignorant bigot! |
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| Kylle |
It doesn't have to be every muslim. Of course they are not all radicalised, actually most of them are not. And I agree that countries with big immigrant populations have great problems in policies they have and socialy it is ed up.
They see fiting into the culture they live in as a threat to their existence and even demand special treatment at times when they threat the others from the main culture. |
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| hardcore trancer |
UPDATED casualty toll in #Gaza: 71 dead (21 children - 8 women) and +660 injured ( 224 child - 113 women )
Israeli casualties remain at 3 dead and 5 wounded. |
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| enydo |
| I wanna hear more about what LAGRANGIAN thinks about all this. |
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| Viber |
Hey Eddie,
i refrain from saying ALL MUSLIMS or even MOST Muslims, i say "many Muslims" maybe i should say "some Muslims...i don't want to include all Muslims in my position, i can never say that everyone are the same.
The last thing i want to do is to encourage hate.
I'm not using Kyle as a source here, its no secret that you have a lot of radicals in Europe who are aspiring to have Sharia law in their countries, its also not a secret that some past and future Muslim terrorists are residing in Europe even though some of them were actually born in Europe.
Mexican Immigrants move to the US in order to achieve the American dream, i think they have more in common with the older generation of Muslims who came to Europe decades ago ,but can you really say that Radical Muslims or Muslims who later became radicals are only interested in living the European way of life and to assimilate in European fabric?
about GW:
Israel is far from using all of its funds, material and manpower just to surpass the Hamas as of now, it does cost a lot of money but the security budget has always been very high because lets face it - even if you rule out the Palestinians you still have threats from Egypt,Syria,Lebanon and even Iran...if the Palestinians were our only problem we had half of the security budget we have now.
If you see how the other team is doing you'll see that the Palestinians are spending almost all of their funds and efforts on a hopeless cause (conquering Israel and throwing the Jews into the sea).
for any goal they score they score 3 own goals, that's some ineffective Guerrilla fighting right there.
The Palestinians ARE very good in showing Israel in a bad light, but i guess its due to poor judgement and cowardice to actually repair the situation from the UN and other world leaders (not to mention prejudice against Jews).
Surprisingly, Israel is getting a pretty solid International back this time.
| quote: | ...In such circumstances, it will be a remarkable government that will not be driven to stern repressive measures-curfews, the suspension of civil liberties, a ban on popular assembly, illegal acts that can only deepen the popular opposition, creating a vicious circle of rebellion and repression until the economy is undermined, the social fabric torn beyond redemption, and the regime tottering on the verge of collapse.
(pp. 20-21) <--- Quite similar to what has been occurring in Israel
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This little paragraph is hinting that Israeli sanctions are the sperm that keeps impregnating the Hamas with newer soldiers everyday.
Historically, When Israel is backing down and relieve sanctions the Gangs of Gaza are interpreting it as weakness and are arming themselves with weapons and brainwashing their young with exciting ideology in the mosques, after all, whats more enticing than the smell of victory? |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Kylle
It doesn't have to be every muslim. Of course they are not all radicalised, actually most of them are not. And I agree that countries with big immigrant populations have great problems in policies they have and socialy it is ed up.
They see fiting into the culture they live in as a threat to their existence and even demand special treatment at times when they threat the others from the main culture. |
Not quite the same as:
| quote: | Originally posted by Kylle
Sorry, but if you come into my house and insist on my allowing you to kill people there, it's not going to work. It's not that I'm ostracizing you, it's that you're nuts. |
I don't know what to tell you, at this point. You started with polemics and then backed down to a position that seems to appreciate nuances pertaining to the situation but still portrays an irreconcilable difference; the evidence for which seems magnified beyond its actual scope and ignorant of mitigating facts. What are you trying to accomplish?
Do you want me to validate your opinion? Are you saying their isolation is caused by the fact that they try and impose their beliefs on other cultures or the fact that they (to include all Muslims) feel entitled to special treatment? Whether it's true or not, that seems like a rationalization for the way they are treated. It seems like a reasonable approach, if you are trying to convince an outsider as to the merits of your own culture, that you wouldn't discriminate against them. If, on the other hand, you wanted to discriminate against them, it seems rather handy to have the excuse that Mahmoud wasn't hired because he was heavy-handed in trying to convert the interviewing manager to Islam while demanding a 2,000 Euro signing bonus for being Muslim.
It's not that I don't want to take you seriously. It really isn't. You just haven't demonstrated a capacity for me to take you seriously, to begin with. Your understanding is two-dimensional and unrealistic. It begins with very superficial assumptions and ends with simplistic interpretations made from a very myopic point of view. Even in your newly refurbished reasoning, you present an opinion I'd expect from a child.
And, am I supposed to see this newly presented reasonableness as a concession and make my own concession that maybe you're not as much of a Eurotrash hick as I'd previously thought? Oh, maybe you have a point, Kylle, and I'm just too hasty in espousing tolerance considering the culture you're talking about is just as intolerant as I'd originally thought you to be. Is that what I'm supposed to take away from your argument by concession or are you completely backing down from any trace of advancing your ethnocentric point of view? |
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| Lews |
| Eddie, my friend, you're wasting your time. |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by Viber
I'm not using Kyle as a source here, its no secret that you have a lot of radicals in Europe who are aspiring to have Sharia law in their countries, its also not a secret that some past and future Muslim terrorists are residing in Europe even though some of them were actually born in Europe. |
I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact, Bill Powell isn't saying you're wrong, either. It's just you have a very limited understanding of the dynamics involved. Part of the reason for the success in advancing elements of Sharia Law (which I also suspect is very misunderstood and mythologized by outsiders who criticize it) and European Muslim radicalization, in general, is due to the societal isolation they experience.
Re: Guerrilla Warfare - regardless of its success, I'm pointing to significant correlations between the Israeli Palestine conflict and Guerrilla Warfare. To your point about Israel seeming to thrive, in spite of the conflict:
Len Rosen, a prominent Israeli investment banker, told Fortune magazine, "It's security that matters more than peace." During Oslo, "people were looking for peace to provide growth. Now they're looking for security so violence doesn't curtail growth." He could have gone much further: The business of providing "security"-in Israel and around the world-is directly responsible for much of Israel's meteoric economic growth in recent years. It is not an exaggeration to say that the War on Terror industry saved Israel's faltering economy, much as the disaster capitalism complex helped rescue the global stock markets.
~Naomi Klein, Shock Doctrine
To your other point about Hamas starting with Israel just when things seem to be getting better: I'm not sure I disagree with you, there. My girlfriend and I were discussing it, day before yesterday, and pretty much agreed that a lot of what Hamas does just seems counter-productive, in the long run. As much as I disagree with a lot of her thinking, Madeline Albright put it that they have a knack for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Recently, Palestine had enjoyed a recent spurt of economic growth in spite of being walled off from Jerusalem. While it was far from ideal (some compare Palestine to a concentration camp with 40% of their population suffering from food insecurity), it was a step in the right direction that seems lost in the current escalation of violence. |
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| Ted Promo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lews
Eddie, my friend, you're wasting your time. |
If he didn't this forum would lose 40% of the posts it still receives. |
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