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about 30 ppl killed in YET ANOTHER shooting (pg. 21)
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| Psyshell |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
Really? Kids being shot dead by automatic weapons?
Tell that to Norway. |
I'm aware of that incident. I'm also aware of what makes it different.
Moving along. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
1, You are more likely, NOT LESS, to die by a gun if you own one. In fact, 5 times more likely. |
Hnnhhhhhh, that's a little simplified. Suicide accounts for most of this number, overwhelmingly so for white males (36% of the country, right there), and the majority of homicides that comprise this statistic occur in homes with multiple weapons and where multiple, unmarried minorities reside:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
This statistic sounds damning, but it's inflated so much more so by the socioeconomic rift in this country, not to mention nearly unfettered access to firearms (of course). But it ought not be interpreted that the mere act of owning a single firearm for home defense is automatically a target on your back. |
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| OrangestO |
GUNS AND BUTTER.
WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON? |
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| DJ RANN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Hnnhhhhhh, that's a little simplified. Suicide accounts for most of this number, overwhelmingly so for white males (36% of the country, right there), and the majority of homicides that comprise this statistic occur in homes with multiple weapons and where multiple, unmarried minorities reside:
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
This statistic sounds damning, but it's inflated so much more so by the socioeconomic rift in this country, not to mention nearly unfettered access to firearms (of course). But it ought not be interpreted that the mere act of owning a single firearm for home defense is automatically a target on your back. |
I agree that the figures are a little inflated due to suicide but they do not account for "most" of those figures. It makes a clear distinction between suicide and homicide in the conclusions:
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For victims of homicide, there was also a strong association between guns in the home and risk of dying from a firearm-related homicide, but this risk varied by age and whether the person was living with others at the time of death. These deaths may have been related to domestic violence or to other interpersonal disputes either involving them or someone else in the household. The majority of victims knew their assailant, suggesting that the assailant was either a family member or was acquainted with the victim or victim’s family and less likely to be an unknown intruder
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Bear in mind that report is just one national survey of many on the subject, and all them clearly correlate personal gun ownership to a significant increase in gun related homicide.
Again, I hate this muddying of the waters that gun owners try to do.
Just face it. You love you gun, that's OK, but don't delude yourself for a second; you're less safe because of it, and no bull can get around that fact. |
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| Halcyon+On+On |
:nervous: !
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
I agree that the figures are a little inflated due to suicide but they do not account for "most" of those figures. It makes a clear distinction between suicide and homicide in the conclusions: |
You actually read it wrong, I believe. It does make a distinction, but in the section you bolded, the majority it is referring to is a sub-analysis of homicide victims.
In any case, the ratio it composites is more like 1.9 times as likely to die from a gun if you have a firearm in your household (if I am reading the numbers correctly); but the majority of that is indeed caused by suicides, since guns are obviously pretty efficient killing machines (and as such should be regulated!). Other cases are due to domestic disputes, robberies, and more marginally, home invasions. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
Lol having an assault gun ban won't do jack
there are 300 million + guns outstanding int he US.
What is needed is some sort of gun recall. |
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| DOOMBOT |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ RANN
The facts are out there, so let's stop dancing about this issue:
[quote]1, You are more likely, NOT LESS, to die by a gun if you own one. In fact, 5 times more likely. |
You are also more likely to die in a plane crash if you fly in planes then if you don't. What's your point?
| quote: | | 2, The chance of you needing a gun to defend yourself during this mythical armed break-in that gun owners seem to think will happen every night, is statistically far lower than the chance of you dying cleaning your weapon. |
Regardless, it is still a judgment call on the individual who wants to own one for their protection. There are plenty of cases where people have defended themselves of a break-in with a gun. Who knows what would have happened had these people not been armed to defend themselves. Would you feel comfortable living in, let's say, Kensington (Philadelphia) and posting a sign outside of your house saying you don't carry?
| quote: | | 3, Gun ownership has made life more dangerous in the USA. More people own guns in the USA than anywhere else, and more people die because of guns than anywhere else. |
Gun ownership by non-peaceful people and the laws they do not obey have made life dangerous. The fact that there are laws in place to make it more difficult for peaceful people to obtain them for self defense makes them an easier target for those who are not going to obey the law. You can have any law under the sun in effort to restrict people from owning them and all it is going to do is make them a much easier target for those who are able to obtain them without going through the legal process.
| quote: | | 4, Current US gun laws mean anyone can buy a gun, regardless of mental health, criminal background or openly professed intent*. |
Your astrix doesn't address your claim. There are laws, which you fully admit, in place that are intended to restrict this sort of thing.
| quote: | | 5, There have been 63 mass shootings since the 1960's more than 10 times the number of mass shooting in other countries. |
Whether this is true or not, it really doesn't tell us much or even why this might be. A common thing that seems to be happening with these mass shootings, though, is that the people who are committing these violent acts are going to places where they know that chances are slim to none that no one will be carrying a gun there. For example, the man who killed people during the Dark Knight went to a theatre that had a policy against people carrying guns. There were other theatres around, even one that was closer to his home then the one he ended up going to, but he chose the one where he could potentially do more damage. And how about the killings in the Oregon Mall? That man was confronted by someone who was armed and eventually turned the gun on himself.
| quote: | | 6, It is easier to legally procure a gun in the USA than in any other developed country. |
Ok. |
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| DOOMBOT |
I think that it is much more fair, if we are going to try and debate this with statistics, to see the numbers of these sorts of incidents when they occur somewhere that people are either not allowed to carry (whether it be by law or because the private property owner requested it) and therefor are not carrying, versus places in which people are carrying or highly known to carry an armed weapon. I think we'd find out, without any surprise, that these incidents are almost always happening in situations where the killer knows that they can potentially take out a lot of people because there simply won't be a way for people to defend themselves of the person's cowardly act.
To take my point to a logical extreme; how often are these psychos walking into a police station or gun club, with the same motives to kill people? Not saying it can't or never happens but compare any occurrence of that kind to when they are going to places of the opposite atmosphere. |
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| Jon_Snow |
| The real problem is we don't have enough guns if those kids had guns they could have protected themselves from that mass murder. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by DOOMBOT
I think that it is much more fair, if we are going to try and debate this with statistics, to see the numbers of these sorts of incidents when they occur somewhere that people are either not allowed to carry (whether it be by law or because the private property owner requested it) and therefor are not carrying, versus places in which people are carrying or highly known to carry an armed weapon. I think we'd find out, without any surprise, that these incidents are almost always happening in situations where the killer knows that they can potentially take out a lot of people because there simply won't be a way for people to defend themselves of the person's cowardly act.
To take my point to a logical extreme; how often are these psychos walking into a police station or gun club, with the same motives to kill people? Not saying it can't or never happens but compare any occurrence of that kind to when they are going to places of the opposite atmosphere. |
fort hood? |
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