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Matrix Revolutions (pg. 15)
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| Spin Doctor |
Just saw it tonight and I want my money back. :( What a load of total utter rubbish. Shame, as the first one was so good.
Who needs to think of a story line when our computers can make fight scenes for us, eh? :rolleyes: |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by JayD
astroboy,
Your comments about Neo being evil and such would be logical but, if you know the story of the matrix and how the Matrix was created in the first place then you'll understand that that cannot be possible....
Anyways, that explains it. Neo isnt the "devil". He is simply trying to take back what was theres in the first place, and trying to free those who dont know whats going on.
JaY |
Jay,
I think you misread my post. I understand the background of the matrix. What I'm saying is:
1)The situation as it currently stands in the timeframe of the Matrix films is analogous to Genesis (not perfectly, but to some extent).
- Most people live in the matrix constructed for them by machines who govern every aspect of this virtual world, and keep them in ignorance.
- By acting as an avenue for human exploration, growth and curiosity Neo acts as a "satan figure"... Note I stated in my post:
| quote: | | Neo = Satan (of course you have to take away the a priori biblical assumption that satan/the serpent is evil) |
ie. There is an a priori assumption in the bible that Satan/the snake is evil. If you ignore this assumption, the snake is simply curious... and explorer, someone who tries to bend the rules... the archetypal hacker, if you will. If it is easier think of the equivalent Norse deity - Loki.
So in conclusion I am not saying neo is evil (in fact i explicitly stated that he is not), just that he can be conceived of as a heroic satan figure... this is even apparent in the imagery at the end of Reloaded... The architect is an old man dressed immaculately in white sitting in a light-filled room (an anthropomorphic God stereotype). Neo is dressed totally in black, with his sunnies on - a complete opposite of the architect. When he leaves the architect to save Trinity, he flies through the night in his black attire accompanied by flames behind him... typical imagery for Satan (or Loki). |
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| whiskers |
| wait, isn't Loki the god of lies and mischief? |
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| astroboy |
| quote: | Originally posted by whiskers
wait, isn't Loki the god of lies and mischief? |
Well I was sort of going out on a limb chucking Loki in there cos i'm not that familiar with Norse mythology. But I'm pretty sure he's not that simple... Just like in Hinduism Shiva is the God of destruction but is not evil because he is also the god of rebirth (whcih destruction necesarily precedes). In the same way I think Loki's function is more complex... His mischief is not always malevolent, what is certain about him is that he is a "rule bender", and a representation of human curiosity. He definitely isn't a clear-cut evil entity. |
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| whiskers |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
His mischief is not always malevolent, what is certain about him is that he is a "rule bender", and a representation of human curiosity. He definitely isn't a clear-cut evil entity. |
true, he's more like a god of fun, but naughty fun... |
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| Rakoon |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scorchio
This is for those who dont understand the true being of Neo, and some of my thoughts.
First of all, Neo is NOT created by the architecht, I mean he is becuase hes generated by machines in the fields, but, he has a diversion which causes fluctuations in the matrix, and the architecht describes it as: "the result of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix", thus that means that the equation can be printed in anyone, so anyone is a potential one, the one who figures it out can manipulate the equation for his bennefits in our case: Neo.
About Neo being human, thats a question that many people are discussing, Neo is infact human IMO, becuase, when Smith fights him in the grand finale, he asks:
Why get up, why get up when you know youre gonna fail, when you know there is no point, no purpose.
Neo sums up the whole idea of the movie in 4 words:
"Becuase I Choose To"
He states the freedom of choice, and refuses to think that his life are a basic pattern of action and reaction.
This was also reffered in the first movie when Morpheus asks Neo:
Do you believe in fate Neo?
Neo answeres "No"
"Why not?"
He answeres "Becuase I dont like the idea that I'm not in control in my own life"
Based on these facts I believe Neo is human.
My thoughts on the final battle, Smith and the Oracle:
Just like Smith was created to balance the equation of the one, the Oracle was created to balance the Architect's equation, they share the same power, thats why Smith laughs when he takes over the Oreacle's body, becuase that was the moment that he gained the full control in the Matrix.
The Architect allows Neo to enter and stop Smith becuase "The program Smith has grown beyond your control"
thats because as soon as he has the Oracle's body in his possesion he can see into the future, hence he foresees tha battle against Neo, and he sees his victory, one more explanation for why he laughes if you will.
Thats also why he fights Neo with only one Smith, becuase he knows hes gonna win.
Here comes the very very very important part of choice and
"We can never see past the choices we dont understand"
the Oracle says that no one can see beyond it, not even Smith with all his power.
Hence when Smith is facing Neo at the very end of the battle he says
"Wait I've seen this moment, I've seen you down on the floor like that and I said something, what did I say?"
Then he chooses the phrase"
"Everything that has a beginning has an end"
But right after that he says
"No thats not right, I'm not supposed to say that"
He doesnt understand his choice, thus he never saw beyond that choice that he didnt understand, and never saw Neo getting up, thats why hes afraid of Neo.
At the end Neo states "What are you afraid of?"
Smith answeres "This wasnt supposed to be like this"
And then Neo understands that he cant defeat Smith, he understands that Smith was right all along.
"It was inevitable"
When Smith changes Neo into another Smith, Neo's equation dissapears, hence Smith which is supposed to balance him is no longer needed, so he's destroyed, and the reason the Oracle is the only one left is becuase she represents the Architect, and she is needed for the survival of the Matrix, she cant be destroyed, becuase if she will, so will the Architecht and thsu endning the Matrix.
/Waiting for reply |
Thanks man this makes the story make more sense now and thus more enjoyable. For anyone who doesnt want to dig through the thread, read this. (Assuming you've seen the movie anyway.) |
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| Rakoon |
| quote: | Originally posted by nrjizer
Reloaded had you expecting some ultra confusing complicated solution to it all, but its actually quite simple. I figured it out. Smith was created by the Oracle. She wanted a peace between the humans and machines. So she created Smith, the opposite of Neo. Neo's job is to help tear down the matrix and rebuild it, better than before, then return to the source from which he came. Smith, on the other hand, exists to destroy it, the machines, humans, everything. No one can stop him but Neo; he was specifically made so this is true. This gives Neo something to bargan with to the machines: he'll stop Smith, and in return there will be peace. Thats what colonel sanders (the architect) meant when he said to the Oracle at the end "that was quite a risk you took." |
Thanks for this too. Heres another good read for figuring out the movie if you dont want to dig through all the religious symbolism and movie bashing inside the topic. Further justification about what the above guy said:
| quote: | Originally posted by trancaholic
Because Smith says "You should know, Mother" at some point in the movie. |
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| Rakoon |
Actually this explains the story better. I found this through another site, but I'll quote the part that helped me most.
| quote: | Originally posted by malvado
In M1 (The Matrix) she meets with The One, Neo, as she has done in the five previous iterations of the Matrix. Normally she simply helps guide The One to his meeting with the Architect. Except this time the Oracle gives Neo a special cookie, which he eats. The cookie isn't actually a cookie, though, it's an upgrade to Neo's program. Since the Oracle created the The One program, she can predict exactly what Neo will do in the future, specifically how he will destroy Smith (from the inside, with some copying from Neo to Smith occuring). She therefore includes in the program upgrade code that will give Smith the ability to replicate himself, and for Neo and Smith to see the future as she does.
In M2 (The Matrix Reloaded) Neo plays out his role as The One, meeting with the Architect. However, due to his love for Trinity he chooses the left door, preventing the Matrix from reloading. This was seen in advance by the Oracle, as she has the ability to predict Neo's behavior (as explained above) as well as human behavior in general (due to the nature of her program). She therefore told Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo (in M1), all the while knowing it would eventually cause Neo to choose the left door.
In M3 (The Matrix Revolutions) the Oracle's plan comes to fruition. While the machines begin their assualt on Zion (for the sixth time), Smith continues to replicate himself throughout the Matrix. Neo, on the otherhand, is stuck in the train station. Apparently, fulfilling his mission to meet with the Architect unlocks some section of his program that allows Neo to use his enhanced implants to once again become part of the machine collective (perhaps because of the Oracle's upgrade?). He is therefore able to sense and control other machines wirelessly. The first example of this is when he stops the sentinels at the end of M2. Since he is not quite ready to use his new abilities, however, his program gets stuck at the security checkpoint of the Matrix, the train station.
In the train station Neo meets with Rama Kandra, his wife, and their daughter Sati. Rama and his wife are both machines from the real world who can jack into the Matrix, like all other machines, and live human lives. Sati is a program created by these two machines out of love, which Rama explains to Neo is not out of the grasp of the machines. They are on their way back into the Matrix to leave Sati with the Oracle for safe keeping, as any program without a purpose is deleted.
After being rescued from the train station by Trinity, Morpheus, and Seraph, Neo is helped out of the Matrix using the standard jack. While aboard the Hammer he has another vision of the future, this time of the three power lines leading from the Matrix power station to 01, the machine city (he is able to see the power lines due to his newfound connection to the machine collective). He therefore takes the Logos, along with Trinity, and leaves for 01. Along the way he confronts the stowaway Bane (who has the Smith program inside of him), and is blinded by him. Although blind, Neo is still able to see other machines (orange glow), including the Smith program inside Bane, which he uses to defeat Bane. He also uses his power to control other machines to detonate the bombs fired at the Logos by the 01 defenses.
Meanwhile Smith is replicating out of control in the Matrix, and eventually confronts the Oracle after taking over Seraph and Sati. They have a brief conversation in which he calls her "Mom", referring to the fact that she helped to create him (along with the Architect) as well as Neo (part of his program now). The Oracle then tells Smith to "Do what you came here to do.", so he takes over her as well. The newly formed Smith then stands up and laughs hysterically, foreshadowing the events at the end of the movie.
Eventually the Logos crashes in 01, but not before Neo gets a top-down view of the orange glowing city with his newfound machine-vision (notice the fractal patterns). Unfortunately Trinity is killed in the crash, and explains to Neo that both of them have been living on borrowed time. Neo since he was ressurected by Trinity, and Trinity since she was ressurected by Neo. Both are meant to die and Trinity is simply happy for the oportunity this time to tell Neo how she feels about him. (But shame on the brothers for killing off Trinity in such a lame way. Couldn't she have at least died trying to save the ship, not just letting it crash!)
Neo then leaves the Logos and enters the machine building into which it crashed (the building is seen in the same orange glowing machine-vision). He is then confronted by the Deus Ex Machina, who knows that Neo is the only one who can stop Smith from destroying the Matrix, but still shows hatred toward Neo (due to the fact that he is mostly human). After a show of force, the Deus Ex Machina agrees to peace with the humans in exchange for Neo's promise to destroy Smith. This causes the sentinels to halt their attack on the Zion temple, the last holdout of the remaining humans (the dock and city have already been destroyed).
The machines then jack Neo into the Matrix, since he has not yet masterred the ability to do so wirelessly (this theme of Neo having to learn to use his new abilities runs throughout the trilogy). Neo then confronts Smith, who says he has seen the future, and that he (the one particular Smith) is the one that defeats Neo. The other Smiths (all of the other people in the Matrix have now been taken over by him) therefore only watch as the fight begins.
After a brutal battle Neo is near defeat, but continues to fight. When asked why he does so, Neo responds "Because I choose to.", echoing the theme in M2 that "Everything begins with choice." (the only way humans achieve true freedom). But even though he delivers a stunning punch to Smith which sends him through the ground, Neo is eventually defeated. Before Smith takes him over he pauses, however, realizing that he has seen this very moment in his visions, and he already knows what he is going to say. "Everything that has a beginning has an end..." he mutters confusedly. This causes Neo to realize that the Oracle still exists somewhere inside of Smith, and that she is partially able to control his thoughts. Taking his cue from the Oracle, Neo freely gives himself to Smith.
Thus Neo is defeated, and Smith's original purpose, to defeat The One (which he is never really expected to achieve, which leads to his bad temperment) is accomplished. Smith therefore no longer has a purpose and must be deleted. But since programs marked for deletion must return to the source, how is Smith to be deleted? Simple, the machines send the command through Neo, into Smith, using a burst of energy. This causes all of the Smith clones, and the original Smith, to be deleted, leaving the original inhabitants of the bodies he has taken over (this is a basic function of the agent programs, that they leave their hosts as they found them, with death being the only exception).
This then completes another revolution in the Matrix cycle, as The One has reached the Source and has reinserted the prime program (Neo's program, his knowledge and experiences). The Matrix is then reloaded back to it's initial state, the late 20th century.
The Oracle then meets with Sati, Seraph, and the Architect in a park outside the city as the sun rises over it. The Architect tells her that she was playing a "very risky game", and she asks him if he will honor the promise of peace. He says that he will, since he is not human (meaning humans do not keep their promises, an insult). This means that those people who unconsciously become aware of the Matrix and choose to leave will be freed, and those living in Zion will not be killed. The war between man and machine is over, or at least suspended.
Looking upon the sunrise the Oracle asks Sati if that was her doing, and the girl responds that she did it for Neo (made the sun rise). Apparently Neo's experience with love, which was uploaded from him to the Source, caused the machines to show pity on Sati and give her a purpose instead of deleting her. She is now in control of the sun. Sati also asks the Oracle if they will ever see Neo again, and the Oracle replies that they might, indicating that the The One program will be used again in the future, as it had been for the previous six iterations of the Matrix. M3 therefore ends where M1 began, except that now the humans who become aware of the Matrix will be freed (a decent compromise if you ask me). |
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| astroboy |
The Oracle didn't "write" the one as a program. She is a databse designed to predict HUMAN behaviour. Thus she was able to write tha matrix in such a way that necessitated the emergence of a human Neo in every incarnation. This isn't done by writing Neo-code and uploading it into him, but by making his environment such that he eventually develops into the one. The Oracle isn't a programmer, if anything she is a psychologist. This is a theme throughout the trilogy. When Neo goes in to see the architect he s surrounded by screens that display every possible reaction he could have to every statement the architect makes. The view of the machines is that since they can associate probabilities with each possible human reaction they can predict all human behaviour and make allowances for it. This would mean that free will is an illusion and the matrix can continue to exist in a steady cycle. However Neo breaks all the rules and does things the machines could not possibly have predicted... this ultimately is the triumph of freedom and proof of the existance of free will.
As for the cookie being a program... I don't really see any indications of that. The death of the author aside, you can't just pull interpretations out of thin air like that... if the film-makers intended the cookie to be a program, they would have put in SOME hint of it. If we assume that we are constantly being deceived and not told anything then we can come up with any number of ridiculous theories, all of which will be equally valid. |
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| Mosaic |
hmmm... saw it last night... was the biggest disappointment ever.
They should not have made Revolutions and Reloaded.
I think they spent $20 on the script. |
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| whiskers |
| quote: | Originally posted by Rakoon
Actually this explains the story better. I found this through another site, but I'll quote the part that helped
me most.
| quote: |
Originally posted by malvado
In M1 (The Matrix) she meets with The One, Neo, as she has done in the five previous iterations of the Matrix. Normally she simply helps guide The One to his meeting with the Architect. Except this time the Oracle gives Neo a special cookie, which he eats. The cookie isn't actually a cookie, though, it's an upgrade to Neo's program. Since the Oracle created the The One program, she can predict exactly what Neo will do in the future, specifically how he will destroy Smith (from the inside, with some copying from Neo to Smith occuring). She therefore includes in the program upgrade code that will give Smith the ability to replicate himself, and for Neo and Smith to see the future as she does.
In M2 (The Matrix Reloaded) Neo plays out his role as The One, meeting with the Architect. However, due to his love for Trinity he chooses the left door, preventing the Matrix from reloading. This was seen in advance by the Oracle, as she has the ability to predict Neo's behavior (as explained above) as well as human behavior in general (due to the nature of her program). She therefore told Trinity that she would fall in love with Neo (in M1), all the while knowing it would eventually cause Neo to choose the left door.
In M3 (The Matrix Revolutions) the Oracle's plan comes to fruition. While the machines begin their assualt on Zion (for the sixth time), Smith continues to replicate himself throughout the Matrix. Neo, on the otherhand, is stuck in the train station. Apparently, fulfilling his mission to meet with the Architect unlocks some section of his program that allows Neo to use his enhanced implants to once again become part of the machine collective (perhaps because of the Oracle's upgrade?). He is therefore able to sense and control other machines wirelessly. The first example of this is when he stops the sentinels at the end of M2. Since he is not quite ready to use his new abilities, however, his program gets stuck at the security checkpoint of the Matrix, the train station.
In the train station Neo meets with Rama Kandra, his wife, and their daughter Sati. Rama and his wife are both machines from the real world who can jack into the Matrix, like all other machines, and live human lives. Sati is a program created by these two machines out of love, which Rama explains to Neo is not out of the grasp of the machines. They are on their way back into the Matrix to leave Sati with the Oracle for safe keeping, as any program without a purpose is deleted.
After being rescued from the train station by Trinity, Morpheus, and Seraph, Neo is helped out of the Matrix using the standard jack. While aboard the Hammer he has another vision of the future, this time of the three power lines leading from the Matrix power station to 01, the machine city (he is able to see the power lines due to his newfound connection to the machine collective). He therefore takes the Logos, along with Trinity, and leaves for 01. Along the way he confronts the stowaway Bane (who has the Smith program inside of him), and is blinded by him. Although blind, Neo is still able to see other machines (orange glow), including the Smith program inside Bane, which he uses to defeat Bane. He also uses his power to control other machines to detonate the bombs fired at the Logos by the 01 defenses.
Meanwhile Smith is replicating out of control in the Matrix, and eventually confronts the Oracle after taking over Seraph and Sati. They have a brief conversation in which he calls her "Mom", referring to the fact that she helped to create him (along with the Architect) as well as Neo (part of his program now). The Oracle then tells Smith to "Do what you came here to do.", so he takes over her as well. The newly formed Smith then stands up and laughs hysterically, foreshadowing the events at the end of the movie.
Eventually the Logos crashes in 01, but not before Neo gets a top-down view of the orange glowing city with his newfound machine-vision (notice the fractal patterns). Unfortunately Trinity is killed in the crash, and explains to Neo that both of them have been living on borrowed time. Neo since he was ressurected by Trinity, and Trinity since she was ressurected by Neo. Both are meant to die and Trinity is simply happy for the oportunity this time to tell Neo how she feels about him. (But shame on the brothers for killing off Trinity in such a lame way. Couldn't she have at least died trying to save the ship, not just letting it crash!)
Neo then leaves the Logos and enters the machine building into which it crashed (the building is seen in the same orange glowing machine-vision). He is then confronted by the Deus Ex Machina, who knows that Neo is the only one who can stop Smith from destroying the Matrix, but still shows hatred toward Neo (due to the fact that he is mostly human). After a show of force, the Deus Ex Machina agrees to peace with the humans in exchange for Neo's promise to destroy Smith. This causes the sentinels to halt their attack on the Zion temple, the last holdout of the remaining humans (the dock and city have already been destroyed).
The machines then jack Neo into the Matrix, since he has not yet masterred the ability to do so wirelessly (this theme of Neo having to learn to use his new abilities runs throughout the trilogy). Neo then confronts Smith, who says he has seen the future, and that he (the one particular Smith) is the one that defeats Neo. The other Smiths (all of the other people in the Matrix have now been taken over by him) therefore only watch as the fight begins.
After a brutal battle Neo is near defeat, but continues to fight. When asked why he does so, Neo responds "Because I choose to.", echoing the theme in M2 that "Everything begins with choice." (the only way humans achieve true freedom). But even though he delivers a stunning punch to Smith which sends him through the ground, Neo is eventually defeated. Before Smith takes him over he pauses, however, realizing that he has seen this very moment in his visions, and he already knows what he is going to say. "Everything that has a beginning has an end..." he mutters confusedly. This causes Neo to realize that the Oracle still exists somewhere inside of Smith, and that she is partially able to control his thoughts. Taking his cue from the Oracle, Neo freely gives himself to Smith.
Thus Neo is defeated, and Smith's original purpose, to defeat The One (which he is never really expected to achieve, which leads to his bad temperment) is accomplished. Smith therefore no longer has a purpose and must be deleted. But since programs marked for deletion must return to the source, how is Smith to be deleted? Simple, the machines send the command through Neo, into Smith, using a burst of energy. This causes all of the Smith clones, and the original Smith, to be deleted, leaving the original inhabitants of the bodies he has taken over (this is a basic function of the agent programs, that they leave their hosts as they found them, with death being the only exception).
This then completes another revolution in the Matrix cycle, as The One has reached the Source and has reinserted the prime program (Neo's program, his knowledge and experiences). The Matrix is then reloaded back to it's initial state, the late 20th century.
The Oracle then meets with Sati, Seraph, and the Architect in a park outside the city as the sun rises over it. The Architect tells her that she was playing a "very risky game", and she asks him if he will honor the promise of peace. He says that he will, since he is not human (meaning humans do not keep their promises, an insult). This means that those people who unconsciously become aware of the Matrix and choose to leave will be freed, and those living in Zion will not be killed. The war between man and machine is over, or at least suspended.
Looking upon the sunrise the Oracle asks Sati if that was her doing, and the girl responds that she did it for Neo (made the sun rise). Apparently Neo's experience with love, which was uploaded from him to the Source, caused the machines to show pity on Sati and give her a purpose instead of deleting her. She is now in control of the sun. Sati also asks the Oracle if they will ever see Neo again, and the Oracle replies that they might, indicating that the The One program will be used again in the future, as it had been for the previous six iterations of the Matrix. M3 therefore ends where M1 began, except that now the humans who become aware of the Matrix will be freed (a decent compromise if |
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sorry, but the first half of that sounds like complete bollocks to me... implants??? wtf?
i have 3 things i'm concerned about :
1. Neo as Moses. I know that he's supposed to be Jesus and all, but just the way he stops the machines at the end of M2 and everything, he reminds me of Moses. I'm not religiously savvy, so correct me if i'm wrong.
2. The Indian man, Rama Chandra - this is what i could find about him : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_Chandra
interesting.....
3. 01. Now, this is what boggles the mind... why do the machines have such a huge defense line around the perimeter? We know that 20-30 sentinels could destroy a ship and 01 had millions of them. Now, how many hovercrafts did Zion have... 20? 50? Wouldn't the machines know the humans would never attack 01? That's like going against a tank with a pencil... so why all those bombs? Why such massive defense measures? |
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| Haak |
didn't like it much
there was way too much sappy hollywood i love you stuff, and i didn't really like the story. i was looking forward to it after seing the 2nd movie with the arcitect and everything. but then suddenly he didn't seem important anymore.
the battle in zion was pretty cool, but those damn robots the soldiers sit in are so ridiculous. especially when they all were cheering and putting their huge metal arms in the air, had to laugh at that. |
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