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Religious debate on Jews/Passion of the Christ (pg. 38)
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by cammie
wow i didnt know you had so much bible knowledge, occ....you're fantastic. i was lucky that i was able to memorize my cathecism!
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[sheepish]Ummmm yessss well you know me .... once I pick up the bible I can't put that sucker down.[/sheepish]
Just between you and me ... and everyone else who reads this thread:
I haven't read the bible since sunday school in 5th grade
I just have a knack for finding the info I need :) |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | | We aren't about turn or burn. |
This is incorrect-
How can you not be about that which is inherent in your “message” to non-Christians?
| quote: |
Good,glad to hear you don't.
Oh heck no, I don't like Jehovah's witness.They try to tell me that by not attending their church I'm making a mistake. But, It would be a mistake attending their church in my opinion. |
Well I knew we would at least agree on something…
| quote: | Actually,teeth grinding tounge gnawing pain. That's in Revelation I do believe. But, the reason we mention hell sometimes is because people do need to know it's real. It's imporant. If telling a person about hell will save their soul, then I say go for it. But, I don't think anyone should go up to a non believer and say " Hey if you don't accept Christ right now, You're gonna burn in hell for eternity. By the way did I tell you about God's love? "
Totally the wrong way to approach it, very insensitive,and talk about a real turn off. |
The approach is irrelevant to the actual message and belief, which is what you and any fundie Christian are attempting to convey to a nonbeliever. You can turn the statement around any way you like, but you still have to drop the “do this or burn in hell for all eternity” threat in your message one way or another.
Therefore, the threat is still made, which fits Pascal’s Wager. You still have yet to respond to that.
| quote: | | I still don't think it matches up. |
How so? Logically it matches up quite well.
| quote: | | Yeah, it can if you take it with other drugs or something. But, she was hooked. :/ (Infact I think almost anything can become an addiction.) |
Off topic. n/r
| quote: | Well,again there is a difference in believing in God,and being saved by God. Satan believes in God,he knows he's real.
And, there are a lot of false proclaimers out there. A lot of the time,you can tell what kind of person they are by their actions. ( atleast this has been my experience. ) but, only God can really tell what's going on in their hearts. |
Yes, again I am aware of God knowing their hearts, and that there are many false proclaiming Christians out there. Yet the hypothetical (and likely real) premise remains with the same troubling conclusions – if there are those who do great evil in the world, albeit by addiction or otherwise, they will still be able to get to heaven, provided that they are forgiven of their sins AND believe in Christ. In contrast, a Buddhist monk who may or may not know anything about Jesus, but does amazing humanitarian works in his life, will not see heaven – God will punish his soul for all eternity by sending him to hell.
This is an inescapable result of Christian belief.
[/QUOTE]Yes,that's true. They have reached several of places. But, ever heard of word of mouth? It's kind of like a chain reaction..someone hears about God,they tell another person..? I know a lot of that has happened too.[/QUOTE]
This is a very big reach here. Word of mouth? Did word of mouth tell everyone about Christ around the world immediately after his death? Does word of mouth reach the very old cultures in the deep forests of Africa to this day?
The answer is unavoidable – no.
But let’s say hypothetically that the “word of mouth” has reached every corner of the earth. Do you expect everyone to abandon their beliefs, some thousands of years older than the Christian beliefs (and some from which Christianity stole certain ideals from in the first place), simply because someone from a village a few hundred miles away mentioned something about a Jew named Jesus Christ dying on the cross for everyone’s sins? Should they immediately take but one person’s word for it, and abandon all their centuries old beliefs and traditions, simply because a missionary or two mention something about a guy named Jesus in a village on the other side of the river?
Let me ask you something – if I came to a house in your town 10 miles away from you, and I told that family that the Great Cookie Monster from the Planet Zoinks is the true, righteous God, and that they should believe in Him now because he’s loving and peaceful (and you’ll burn in Hell if you don’t turn to Him now), should I as a follower expect that person down the road to tell you by “word of mouth” and everyone else in the town, and expect you to believe it with all your heart (assuming most in your town has steadfast Christian beliefs)?
Furthermore, should my God, the Great Cookie Monster, expect that you should be immediately and unquestionably believing what your neighbor mentioned about His follower (me) and the “Good News” he brings, lest you all burn in Hell for all eternity?
Would that be very fair of my God, the Great Cookie Monster, to give that burden to all of you, simply from a hopeful spreading of “word of mouth” amongst everyone in your town? I hardly think so. I wouldn’t think it would be the town’s fault for not spreading the “word of mouth” along very well. Besides, you know what they say about “word of mouth” stories?
(they have a tendency to change from the start of the line to the end. Come to think of it – perhaps this is the very reason why we have different sects within Christianity – different interpretations via “word of mouth”?)
| quote: | | But,no I'm not going against what the Bible said/says. I'll have to think of a better way to word the answer, so give me some time.I might be able to get back to you tonight. |
Looking forward to it.
| quote: | | Not sure how I'm going to explain this one...:/ I know the answer,but I'm not sure how I'm going to word it. |
John was smoking a big spleef laced with some serious ‘shroom tea whilst writing this book? Or perhaps he was simply certifiable.
(that’s how I word it).
| quote: | | No contradiction. Read carefully,heck if you want I can lend you my reading glasses. |
Your wit needs some work, as does your logic. Let’s examine once again what you said:
| quote: | | Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to. |
and then you say:
| quote: | | We all commit sin, we're all humans and we all make mistakes.Christians,atheists,Muslims,Jewish..etc etc etc |
So again, looking logically at the two sentences themselves, I ask how can you NOT DO those things once you make it right with God and no desire to, but yet you still DO commit sin regardless of your religious affiliation? The two sentences say two completely conflicting ideas.
| quote: | Christians are always trying to become a better person,more like Christ.(thus the word Christian)
We all still sin,and we all live in a sinful world. Ok? Got that so far? Ok good,onto the next part.
We don't want to sin,but we do. But, we ask for forgiveness,and learn from those mistakes,and those sins and try not to repeat the same mistake. |
Yes, and you believe you are answering my question. I am NOT referring to this idea at all. I know very well that Christians sin and commit evil like everyone else. But this is NOT what I am getting at – your two sentences are conflicting with one another – one says that you “don’t do those things” when you make it right with God, the other says that you CAN do those things (because everyone sins, including Christians).
There is no further explanation needed from you on this. My whole entire point is to watch what you say when you make bold assertions like this:
| quote: | | Once you make it right with God, you don't do those things. You have no desire to. |
which is completely against known behaviors and logic. So the suggestion is simple: avoid making false statements like the one above, and we’ll all be better off.
| quote: | | Of course I watch what I say.But, i'm not tying my words against myself. |
Nessa, please read what I said. It wasn’t you whom was tying up your words, it was me tying up your words to prove a point, one that was seemingly missed. |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrSquirrel
I would just like to mention that the two people who keep making these circular references to the bible and Christianity are both 16 (and live south of the Mason-Dixon line too btw)
I know this will get the response of "what does 16 have to do with anything?". So I will address it now.
Answer: EVERYTHING
When one is 16 you get into this phase of "I know everything and everyone else is stoopid" (we all did). You are old enough to drive a car (in the US), you are just close enough to 17 to get into R Rated movies no problem, and you are halfway through high school and become more entrenched in the mass-personality cult that is high school. Your hormones are on overdrive and it makes you considerably more obstinate than you would normally be. |
This is actually quite interesting. I'm (newly :p) 17, yet I'm a hardcore atheist who can't stand most religious dogma. I take great pride in pointing out the circular reasoning that Heinz and Nelly seem to enjoy using ad nauseam. I also can't stand the 'personality cult' stuff that admittedly does dominate high school, and I'm well aware of the fact that i don't know anything. In fact, I'm eager to put any beliefs that I do hold up for scrutiny, and to examine anything that I may have been mistaken about.
How do you explain us having such opposite views & outlooks on life? :p
Come to think of it, there is one more thing I'd like to add. Nelly, for the love of god, go to the following site. It contains basic explanations of the logical fallacies which you love to utilize again & again.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
If you never read any other link that people provide to you to back up their arguments, read this. Understand that you can't use a fallacious argument to support/back up your premise, even if that premise (and indeed your conclusion) happens to be valid. |
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| MrSquirrel |
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
This is actually quite interesting. I'm (newly :p) 17, yet I'm a hardcore atheist who can't stand most religious dogma. I take great pride in pointing out the circular reasoning that Heinz and Nelly seem to enjoy using ad nauseam. I also can't stand the 'personality cult' stuff that admittedly does dominate high school, and I'm well aware of the fact that i don't know anything. In fact, I'm eager to put any beliefs that I do hold up for scrutiny, and to examine anything that I may have been mistaken about.
How do you explain us having such opposite views & outlooks on life? :p
Come to think of it, there is one more thing I'd like to add. Nelly, for the love of god, go to the following site. It contains basic explanations of the logical fallacies which you love to utilize again & again.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
If you never read any other link that people provide to you to back up their arguments, read this. Understand that you can't use a fallacious argument to support/back up your premise, even if that premise (and indeed your conclusion) happens to be valid. |
I explain it as you are a 16 year old "know it all"...just one who happens to have a different outlook. :p
I almost mentioned it in the previous post but could not fit it in well hehe.
:D
MrS |
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| arctic |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrSquirrel
I explain it as you are a 16 year old "know it all"...just one who happens to have a different outlook. :p
I almost mentioned it in the previous post but could not fit it in well hehe.
:D
MrS |
Well, if I was actually 16, I suppose I'd have to agree with you. :p
In all seriousness though, sometimes age doesn't have anything to do with it. You get idiot know it alls of all ages, just head over to rr-bb.com or christianforums.com, and watch the adult know it alls in all their glory. ;)
I think that life experiences probably have something to do with it, and since everyone's life experiences vary, age may not be the key factor in determining the level of someone's, uh, know it all, err, ness. I honestly don't think I know everything, i know it's hard to believe, but i' perfectly willing to admit that my knowledge & experience in many areas is severely lacking. I've got no qualms with simply saying 'I don't know' if someone manages to back me into a corner, and I'm perfectly willing to discard a belief if someone can show me that it's illogical/irrational/not supported by evidence and so on. |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrSquirrel
I know this will get the response of "what does 16 have to do with anything?". So I will address it now.
Answer: EVERYTHING |
We aren't all the same you know. So generalizations aren't going to work in this case.
| quote: | | When one is 16 you get into this phase of "I know everything and everyone else is stoopid" (we all did). You are old enough to drive a car (in the US), you are just close enough to 17 to get into R Rated movies no problem, and you are halfway through high school and become more entrenched in the mass-personality cult that is high school. Your hormones are on overdrive and it makes you considerably more obstinate than you would normally be. |
I don't know everything,and I openly admit this. I'm still in the process of learning a lot. It's an important time of life because of this.
Yes,It's great I'm getting my official license in a couple of weeks. But, what does that have to do with anything? I barely enjoy driving because I'm so afraid of the traffic out there. I mean,it's pretty bad when you have student driver stickers on the back of your vehicle,and people still almost run you off the road and tailgate you,and it only gets worse when you don't have them up.
I don't like R-rated movies usually. None that I can think of.
| quote: |
A decade ago, I was the intellectual king of my little high school world. I was more well read, got better grades, and had a much stronger personality than 99.5% of the people in the school. I had an ego the size of the Hindenburg that was continually inflated with hot air as I went along. It was not until after I had left high school that I saw how much of an idiot I was and the ego deflated to about the size of a VW microbus, still a decent size, but manageable. It was then that I realized that Socrates was right when he said "The only knowledge is in knowing that you know nothing." |
Difference, you went to public school. But, I haven't had the option of this.
I don't think very highly of myself, I never have and I don't think I ever will. There's reasons for this.
I get good grades,but I know I have to work hard to get them,and maintain them.
| quote: | | The 16 year olds will continue to disagree with me because that is what they do best....but I would venture to guess that even the evil zionist-mustard clan will agree with me on many points. |
Age has nothing to do with your maturity level in some cases.
I'm not your average teenager...I actually like to work(infact I prefer my job over school)I listen to my parents. I help my parents,and I don't argue with my parents often. Hanging out with friends,and looking hot isn't a priority for me. Those things aren't important to me right now.I care about what happens to my country,and I follow politics because it is important.
So really, you're claim that teenagers are arrogant, egotistic, and selfish people isn't right. It's just a really bad stereotype.
Age doesn't make me who I am. |
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| DigiNut |
| quote: | Originally posted by arctic
This is actually quite interesting. I'm (newly :p) 17, yet I'm a hardcore atheist who can't stand most religious dogma. I take great pride in pointing out the circular reasoning that Heinz and Nelly seem to enjoy using ad nauseam. I also can't stand the 'personality cult' stuff that admittedly does dominate high school, and I'm well aware of the fact that i don't know anything. In fact, I'm eager to put any beliefs that I do hold up for scrutiny, and to examine anything that I may have been mistaken about.
How do you explain us having such opposite views & outlooks on life? :p |
You're a 17 year old from Australia. S's post only applies to people from North America. :p
Don't count on Nelly reading that link you sent. And if she does, she'll probably tell you that God does not consider those to be fallacies... :haha:
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
I don't think very highly of myself, I never have and I don't think I ever will. There's reasons for this.
I get good grades,but I know I have to work hard to get them,and maintain them. |
No, the reason for it is that you're a hardcore Christian, a member of a religion which indulges in fear and insecurity. I've never met any true Christian who had much self-esteem (not talking about secular "don't really give a damn/just be a good person" Christians here). |
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| WhoaNellie1487 |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
So make up your mind then! Either the bible is correct and people can only go to heaven through acknowledging and accepting Jesus, or they can go there just for being good people. So which of it is correct? |
First off,Let me apologize for my late replies. I couldn't walk yesterday, and I was way way way to out of it to have my parents carry me down the stairs.
The Bible is correct,and God is fair. I do know for a fact there is an age of accountability. Also, if a person hasn't heard about God, it's not their fault. In that case, I seriously think God would judge their heart, and go from there. |
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| Frode |
| quote: | Originally posted by MisterOpus1
Yes, but as you well know, many o' fundamentalist Christians think very lowly of the Catholic Church in general.
On the flip side, their historical dissenter, Martin Luther, had some interesting things to say about the Jews in his time:
"For, as all can see, God's wrath over them is so great that gentle mercy will only make them worse and worse, and harshness little better. So away with them at all costs."
His solution to the "Jewish Question":
"Away with them at all costs" |
Actually I had no idea about the "reputation" of the catholic church among American fundamentalists.
And the Luther-quote is quite interesting, I haven't heard it before. |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| quote: | Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487
The Bible is correct,and God is fair. I do know for a fact there is an age of accountability. Also, if a person hasn't heard about God, it's not their fault. In that case, I seriously think God would judge their heart, and go from there. |
Well, then what about people who have been only told about Jesus, but never really introduced into his teachings? Where do you draw the line. If someone just said there's a fellow named Jesus that lived once, but can't really say more than that, is the person who heard that supposed to believe it?
And you haven't answered what happens to crazy psychos who go out killing people because they truly believe that god told them to do so. Some of them are even hearing voices in their heads. What happens to them? If they thought god was telling them something else, they wouldn't do what they are doing. So in a way it isn't their fault. They are trying to be good.
What about people who keep doing bad things and genuinely feel sorry about it but can't stop? Take this hypothetical example: a guy robs a bank. Then he really feels sorry for it, and prays to god. Then he changes his mind and does the same thing all over again. So, he does that kind of stuff a few times, and a policeman finally shots him during time when he was feeling sorry and was thinking about giving the money back. At the moment of death, that person was feeling sorry and was in accordance with god, yet if he was to live a few more days, he would have forgot about it. So, does he go to heaven? |
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| DigiNut |
| ^^^ That's of course a very good point that she probably won't address, but wouldn't you say a more practical example would be the Catholic priests sodomizing little choir boys? Surely they know God better than anyone and they're sorry for what they did! |
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