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Intelligent Design Theory (pg. 16)
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by Redd
yeah like trying to "fight" any religious person with rational arguments have ever gotten anyone anywhere. what should rather annoy you is that people even bother to argue with religious people. but that is needed. we can't go on with this kind of perceived as "accepted". religion is a fad, and I hope for a world war 3 (screw you history geeks) where a new hitler fries every single one of the s (for the sake of human kind). anti-religious jihad is mint. |
Look at paradigm shift theory, I believe it works on an individual level. Its also basic psychology that people will automatically shut themselves off, in a defensive shell when emotionally attacked.
basically, you're not going to get anywhere by humiliating and attacking people. All you're going to do is sink to their level and become as close-minded and idiotic as they are.
You can never just flick a switch and change people's fundamental beliefs, but If you attempt to challenge people's beliefs on their own level, calmly, and rationally you can easily give people something to think about.
That's why its good the tv guy uses biblical and theological references to challenge their beliefs, but i think it should stop there. Calling them stupid, and attacking them like that is only going to undo everything he did with the examples.
Not only will the people themselves completely shut down, since we automatically defend ourselves by ignoring new rational stuff when irrational disresepect comes out, but the viewer will also feel for the attacked, since we naturally side with the underdog. then the presenter just seems like a giant douche. |
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| Spam |
| Egos, the Christian Radio Host that called in (the video I provided) was actually fairly intelligent, the problem is that he refuses to accept the logical fallacy in his argument and attack from another angle, he is shown the fallacy, and then plays semantics for 30 minutes trying to convince himself he's right. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by EgosXII
yeah this is my main problem. Fighting irrationality with irrationality annoys me. Yay you're on the TV, yell at callers and deliberately try and humiliate them, that'll make them change their mind :rolleyes:
Same reason i hate michael moore- I don't like any extremist crap, even if its meant to be in opposition to extremism. Nobody's going to reform by being yelled at, or disrespected- If you want them to change, understand their position and rationally point out problems. |
I reckon the main problem is that you shouldn't want them to change. For one, your idea may be undesirable (i.e. religious folks in this case might not even want to consider a world without a supernatural realm). Also, you can be wrong (though I truly don't believe it is the case here).
In a debate, what should happen is an exchange of ideas, not a dispute to see who's right. For all we care, both sides could be wrong, and that makes the winner as special as the leftovers of a Sunday dinner with Charlie Sheen.
What you should do is expose your ideas so they can be corrected if they need fixing, and find the flaws of your opponents ideas so they can improve their reasoning. In this case, the woman turned out to be an O'Reillian "if it feels magical, it is magical" anti-intellectual, and insulting her is just... well, worthless.
| quote: | Originally posted by Redd
yeah like trying to "fight" any religious person with rational arguments have ever gotten anyone anywhere. |
Two words: European Secularism. Though immigrants are often religious and it sort of spoils the whole secularisation movement at times, Europe went a long way since the Middle Ages thanks to the impact of its thinkers. |
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| igottaknow |
| No Lira, your wrong! :tongue3 |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| people that subscribe to outlandish nonsense are immune to rationality (that's how they got here in the first place) so there is little to be gained from polite discourse. hostile mockery is the order of the day, because it has just as much impact on their ideas as politeness does, its waaaay more fun, and sometimes you might just get them to display a fraction of the rage their idiotic notions cause you. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
people that subscribe to outlandish nonsense are immune to rationality |
Humour is still much more effective than insults. Even Stephen Colbert (who happens to be a Catholic) manages to mock O'Reilly in a way that is much more awesome than whatever it is that guy tried to do. |
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| EgosXII |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
people that subscribe to outlandish nonsense are immune to rationality (that's how they got here in the first place) so there is little to be gained from polite discourse. hostile mockery is the order of the day, because it has just as much impact on their ideas as politeness does, its waaaay more fun, and sometimes you might just get them to display a fraction of the rage their idiotic notions cause you. |
Haha was waiting for you PKC, but unlike normal, i will just say i disagree :p
If religious belief was irrational people wouldn't believe it. People warp it to BE rational for them. Its not empirical, but empiricism is a confused, bastardised rationality anyway.
And lira, i do agree with you personally, but I don't think people are incapable of believing themselves to be wrong, especially on such issues. People should have enough respect to offer their 'right' side, and leave it at that. You don't have to win. I think you and I are probably more unusual than most of the plebs who think they're always right, and can't understand the opposite side of the coin at all... :o |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Humour is still much more effective than insults. |
does not compute. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
does not compute. |
Mocking the message is much more effective and entertaining than mocking the messenger. |
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| igottaknow |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Mocking the message is much more effective and entertaining than mocking the messenger. |
I think humor is the answer to all our problems lets all watch Steven Colbert together. ;) |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by igottaknow
I think humor is the answer to all our problems lets all watch Steven Colbert together. ;) |
Two words: Volt Air! The guy was a riot and he did contribute to the French Revolution, didn't he? So there! ;) |
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