|
Sex, Death And The Meaning Of Life (pg. 24)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
Sure, asking them is fine. That's not the issue here though. The whole anti-theist movement is attack oriented. . |
perhaps religion's meddling in affairs that do not concern them often to tragic extremes invites these attacks ?
I wasn't aware there was an anti theist movement. I think people , at least most , would be satisfied if religion just ed off and stopped ruining things for people that don't follow it. Unfortunately , proselytization is at the core of theism so that is wishful thinking. They like to get their grubby dirty fingers into everything.
That had a pretty good run on the offensive for the last few millennia, perhaps people are a little irritated by their constant idiotic probing, their never ending pursuit to slow scientific discovery as much as possible and their tendency to force their set of antiquated brutal moral values devised by naive illiterate tribesman on people that are not interested. |
|
|
| srussell0018 |
| If they were illiterate, how were their holy scriptures written? |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
If they were illiterate, how were their holy scriptures written? |
They were written God, duh :p |
|
|
| Dj Nacht |
| srussell0018 are you religious or are you an athiest? I'm curious and can't remember if you mentioned it yet. This isn't a trick question or anything, I just want to know. |
|
|
| srussell0018 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Looney4Clooney
I think people , at least most , would be satisfied if religion just ed off and stopped ruining things for people that don't follow it. |
Technically, most people are religious. |
|
|
| itsamemario |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
They're not challenging your beliefs, they're challenging anti-theists' common practice of constantly going on the offensive to attack religious thought. Don't dare say that they don't do this either, because it's a painfully obvious fact. Atheists love insulting religion. |
For someone who are so quick to yell bloody generalization, you sure make broad sweeping assumptions. |
|
|
| de+ |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
You're essentially saying that atheists are intelligent and rational, and that all religious people are not. |
Who? I don't see anyone making that claim.
| quote: | | Which is the aim of all anti-theists. You seek to make religious people look stupid for some reason, I'm not really sure why. Maybe you think you'll convert them by insulting their intelligence? I just don't get what your aim is here. |
First of all, calling us anti-theists is misleading, judgmental, and just plain wrong in many cases, including my own. You also assume that we are only in it to humiliate religious people, which you must realize is ridiculous. You can't conclude that all atheists are condescending pricks just because you may not like the tone of some arguments here. (By the way, even if they may be rude, a sound argument is still valid. Politeness is not a requisite for debate, especially with an opponent who will not listen.
| quote: | | One can be religious and still believe in science. One can be focused on science and still believe in a higher power. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Sure, a lot of religious people may reject the science you and I hold as a given, but that doesn't mean they all do. |
We are well aware of this fact. That's why we don't spend a whole lot of our time dealing with more liberal religious folk - they don't represent a threat to our freedom the way more conservative fundamentalists do because they simply don't take it as seriously. HOWEVER, the reason we don't ignore them completely is because we could always do with less sheep. There may be plenty of more lax Christians out there, but they rarely take the active stance necessary to shut down loudmouth fundamentalists that want to take away our rights. Many remain so uneducated in the true falsehoods of fundamentalist claims that they become sort of a passive support system for them - after all, they're Christians too, so they can't be THAT far from the truth, right? There are a vast number of people who aren't lying or overzealous - they've just been duped into believing a lie. Indoctrinated into a system they could be much more impartial and openminded without. And since you seem to admit that many elements of religion are, in fact, lies, wouldn't you agree that it's better to know an uncomfortable truth than to believe a reassuring lie?
| quote: | | The fact that you lump every single religious person in the world together under this irrational nut job stereotype is just rather tiring. It's what Eric has been trying to say I think. You can't just talk about science and make your claims, you always have to throw in insults towards religion. Most religious people are happy going on with their lives and not worrying about what atheists think, but it seems like many anti-theists want nothing more than to make religious people look bad, but why? |
See, no one is doing that "lumping together" you're talking about. This is posturing and baseless finger-pointing on your part
| quote: | | What exactly do you get out of criticizing religion exactly? I would really like to hear an answer to that question. I'm not even saying this in opposition to you. I agree with your beliefs. |
I don't get anything OUT of it. That's the thing. I'm trying to do people some good. I want them to realize that they don't have to believe everything their parents told them. I want them to think for themselves. I don't want to shock them into psychological distress or humiliate them; I just want them to truly be able to see the world from an open perspective. Because, though religion can do great things, absolutely none of its effects are either exclusive to one religion or exclusive to religious practice at all. An atheist can get every good feeling a religious person can by having an honest and accurate view of the universe. Religion is just a series of mental blocks set up to channel the mind in a certain direction, and if its effects were lessened overall, we'd be able to have a more open and effective universal dialogue. I just want to get everyone closer to the same page of the new textbook - the Bible is WAY outdated.
| quote: | | Essentially, the point is that the lot of anti-theists who post regularly on this board, and even those who don't, basically have a goal of making religious people look stupid, when your goal should be nothing more than spreading knowledge. You can say everything that you want to say about science without throwing in a "and religious people are stupid for not believing this!" at the end. |
You seem to be confused. It's not the people we criticize, unless the people are being deliberately disingenuous or obstinate and refuse to have honest discussion with us. It's the IDEAS. We are not against the stupidity of religious people, which is not by any means universal. Rather, we are against the stupidity inherent in most of religion. Most religious people have been lied to all their lives. We want to give them a little dose of truth. If an atheist occasionally wants to add in a dose of vitriol and black humor in order to prove a particularly forceful point, or to really get through to someone, we shouldn't condemn him. A lot of us have been through really ty situations caused by religion, and we really, REALLY don't want to put up with them any longer. It's a waste of time for us as a species - and we don't have all that much time left. Give us a chance for a little shock and awe, eh? We've never really had free speech until now. |
|
|
| srussell0018 |
| You aren't going to change anybody's mind who doesn't want it to be changed. You're not holding the secrets to the fountain of youth. You're going to die just like they are. Do you really expect that you're going to convert them from the belief of an everlasting paradise when they die, to one of infinite nothingness? |
|
|
| Dj Nacht |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
You aren't going to change anybody's mind who doesn't want it to be changed. You're not holding the secrets to the fountain of youth. You're going to die just like they are. Do you really expect that you're going to convert them from the belief of an everlasting paradise when they die, to one of infinite nothingness? |
Happens all the time and vice versa. |
|
|
| de+ |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
You aren't going to change anybody's mind who doesn't want it to be changed. You're not holding the secrets to the fountain of youth. You're going to die just like they are. Do you really expect that you're going to convert them from the belief of an everlasting paradise when they die, to one of infinite nothingness? |
If it was impossible to change someone's mind on religion then me and....well most atheists I've ever met wouldn't be atheists. It's hard (which no one disputes), but possible. First and foremost is getting religion out of government, which even many religious people must admit to some degree is sensible.
Interesting that you're accusing us of making generalizations against theists, when here you accuse them of being infinitely stubborn nearly across the board.
| quote: | | You're not holding the secrets to the fountain of youth. |
?????
You make it sound like I'm arrogantly announcing that I hold the keys to some incredible knowledge just because I don't believe in God. Couldn't be further from the truth. I'm trying to show people that we don't know , and that the unknown is preferable to a false "known." |
|
|
| Looney4Clooney |
| quote: | Originally posted by srussell0018
Technically, most people are religious. |
those that suffer the religious.
I feel it fills a community role for many and I wouldn't ever rally for the sake of getting rid of it. I don't like it, it think it is retarded, but as long as they keep to themselves, i see no harm. I don't think they should be given tax exempt status, i don't think people should get a rebate for donations and I would love a completely secular government with no religion ing things up. Leave that to the politicians.
We could never be together as catholics. And that just ain't right. |
|
|
| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Nacht
They are not the same thing, but do you think religion will allow a bunch of athiests to come in and take control of what they've had for thousands of years. |
If it won't, then the intolerant believers are definitely in the wrong, and they should be reprehended for that (and not for being religious).
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Nacht
They are definitely not going to share, and why would they? |
Because they must, and should they demand to have exclusive rights to opinion and speech (or to anything, really), this misguided belief should be fought.
Hell, if God existed and came down to Earth and said "Lo, this is how you must live your life!", I'd be the first to say "Sod off, you old bugger! We live our lives the way we choose"!
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I would gladly contend that one essential facet of the Free Man is his or her capability to live and pursue physical and ideological attributes at the breadth and pace of their personal reasoning, exempt from the force of the state or other local entity, defensible by authentic consent from the citizen represented by said freedom. |
We're both in agreement here :)
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
The state should not be 'free' to enforce by law or penalty any brand of religion or political agenda, though it is of course free to use methods of persuasion or otherwise consenting rhetoric to further its means to propagate taxation. |
And here.
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
I know this is rife with civic jargon, but people ought not be 'free' to kill and murder (duh), just as efforts of justice ought be likewise free to hold in contempt and force those individuals or organizations who might seek to violate the defined freedoms of equal citizenry, of which status ought be unanimously entitled to, barring said violators and their special provisions of reformed pursuit. |
And I wholeheartedly agree with you here as well.
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Is Sudan's government actively seeking to protect its citizenry from marauding criminals as well as protecting the rights to open speech of said citizens? I'm thinking no on the latter, but I can't comment with any authority, as my knowledge of what actually goes on there is quite lacking. |
Based on the little I know, even if it wanted to, it doesn't even have the means to. That's why I mentioned religion. It would be awesome if local authorities could ensure both the right to life and the right to speech there, but it can't. Religion, under these precarious conditions, is at least able to provide the former (although their denial of the latter shouldn't be condoned and/or tolerated).
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
My verdict is that no, they are not 'more free' because Islam has brought political stability to the region. I'm sure that was not its intent - to grant freedom to people, so much as become a force to stave off widespread violence - but one could just as well argue that it has never been religion's charge or responsibility to promote ideals of civic justice and the responsibility of peace, but temporarily shelter people from the base resolve of our ancestry and behavioral artifacts. |
Well, they have freedom to life, and they're free to pursue most interests. Although changes for freedom of speech should be encouraged, isn't it better than having not even that?
| quote: | Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On
Are we better for it? We're still here, that is true.
But can we do even better? I have faith! |
So have I ;) |
|
|
|
|
