|
Keyed tunes for Harmonic mixers (pg. 80)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| nefardec |
'transposition' has nothing to do with major/minor, it has to do merely with the tonic of the scale and the key signature.
you can't change a track to major or minor, unless the intervals between the notes themselves are changed. Minor and Major are musical modes, essentially patterns of relationships between a set of tones, lacking pitch. Defining a tonic, eg C sets the key then for a track combined with the mode.
so you can change the tonic by transposing the track, but the intervals always stay the same, thus the mode always stays the same. unless you edit the track by adding/removing parts...
Also it's quite possible to mix a minor track with its relative major, eg Em with GMaj. Personally i feel like this is only really sucessful when there is a fairly minimal set of pitches in the original key, so that the difference in the mode isn't that obvious (unless this is part of the drama of what you are trying to do) |
|
|
| Simcut |
I cant be bothered to read all 80 pages of this lol, but don't you guys think it would be a great idea to have a website with all of the keys listed on it? perhaps we can start something on this? can the thread starter PM me ?
Thanks :) |
|
|
| Pinokio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Simcut
I cant be bothered to read all 80 pages of this lol, but don't you guys think it would be a great idea to have a website with all of the keys listed on it? perhaps we can start something on this? can the thread starter PM me ?
Thanks :) |
There is already a website were you can find the keys.
[[ LINK REMOVED ]]
And this thread it's beyond it's title "Keyed tunes for Harmonic Mixers".
this is not only to show the key of songs, it's to explain and discuss how harmonic mixing works. |
|
|
| qualia |
hey guys,
i apologize if this has been mentioned already, but has anybody gone so far as to determine the exact modes of their songs? what i mean is, right now everybody assumes a song is either major or minor, but doesn't distinguish the type. the most common major is ionian, but there is also the mixolydian mode (lowered 7th), the lydian mode (raised 4th) and lydian-flat7 for instance. on the other hand, the most common minor is aeolian (i.e. natural minor), but there is also the dorian mode (raised 6th) and phrygian (lowered 2nd)... these slight variations have subtle implications on finding harmonically compatible matches. there are parts of the mixshare wiki that talk about this, but since everybody seems to like the keycode system, i've boiled it down to essentially raising or lowering a song's effective key by one keycode (if you look at what notes are used versus tonal center). it works like:
- Mixolydian (-1)
- Phrygian (-1)
- Dorian (+1)
- Lydian (+1)
there are other modes too but this is just the beginning...
i was curious and went ahead and altered rapid evolution's key detection algorithm to detect these variations/modes, it might be of interest to the folks here... i've already found songs that definitely use these modes. interestingly, this has also improved the key detection accuracy slightly but that's beside the point ;-) the real question here is, are there a significant number of songs that use these modes and could this help explain why certain songs might sound good or bad that's not dictated by the current harmonic theory?
as an example, D# minor (2A) and F minor (4A) normally are not compatible (according to the Camelot system). however, D# minor dorian and F minor phrygian actually share the same scale notes, so i'd think they'd be a reasonable harmonic match. conversely, if you had a song in C major lydian, due to the raised 4th (F# versus F) i doubt it would sound compatible with F major as normally dictated by Camelot theory...
so what do you all think? anybody on this level yet? :-) wanted to get a discussion started before i start adding this kind of logic/theory into rapid evolution... |
|
|
| Pinokio |
I don't knwo about this, but it sounds interesting.
I would like to know more about this.
Thanks |
|
|
| Nemesis44 |
| quote: | Originally posted by qualia
hey guys,
i apologize if this has been mentioned already, but has anybody gone so far as to determine the exact modes of their songs? what i mean is, right now everybody assumes a song is either major or minor, but doesn't distinguish the type. the most common major is ionian, but there is also the mixolydian mode (lowered 7th), the lydian mode (raised 4th) and lydian-flat7 for instance. on the other hand, the most common minor is aeolian (i.e. natural minor), but there is also the dorian mode (raised 6th) and phrygian (lowered 2nd)... these slight variations have subtle implications on finding harmonically compatible matches. there are parts of the mixshare wiki that talk about this, but since everybody seems to like the keycode system, i've boiled it down to essentially raising or lowering a song's effective key by one keycode (if you look at what notes are used versus tonal center). it works like:
- Mixolydian (-1)
- Phrygian (-1)
- Dorian (+1)
- Lydian (+1)
there are other modes too but this is just the beginning...
i was curious and went ahead and altered rapid evolution's key detection algorithm to detect these variations/modes, it might be of interest to the folks here... i've already found songs that definitely use these modes. interestingly, this has also improved the key detection accuracy slightly but that's beside the point ;-) the real question here is, are there a significant number of songs that use these modes and could this help explain why certain songs might sound good or bad that's not dictated by the current harmonic theory?
as an example, D# minor (2A) and F minor (4A) normally are not compatible (according to the Camelot system). however, D# minor dorian and F minor phrygian actually share the same scale notes, so i'd think they'd be a reasonable harmonic match. conversely, if you had a song in C major lydian, due to the raised 4th (F# versus F) i doubt it would sound compatible with F major as normally dictated by Camelot theory...
so what do you all think? anybody on this level yet? :-) wanted to get a discussion started before i start adding this kind of logic/theory into rapid evolution... |
Definately,
But I would stress that whilst this is great information the actual quantity of people who are at a musical level where they can detect scales is probably quite limited.
However for those that are interested, another thing that you may also want to look at is pitch axis theory. This can also create some interesting mix oportunities.
If you were to key using the above scales it's actually not as complicated as it sounds, to get started you would still need to detect the root note, find out if it's major or minor as the major and minor scales have slightly different notes in them and then once that is established you would need to play the scale along with the song or better still pick out the melody as this would tell you almost certainly which scale it's in.
The downside of this is that for the novice it can be quite tough to do this and requires a lot more practice and may not be practical for someone who just wants to sound pretty good when mixing.
But the oportunities change infinately.
Something also to remember that if a root note is the same i.e. tonic you can usually still mix basslines together unless it has a particular pattern based on the scale, but often in trance that isn't the case for intro and outro.
Cheers
Nem |
|
|
| qualia |
yep, pitch axis theory is actually kinda related to all this, as it dictates which chords sound good and accompany each mode. the scale notes are generally the notes from which chords and chord progressions are formed, so i would think that knowing the exact mode of a song is like knowing more about the chords it uses... but i agree, this is definitely for the more seasoned harmonic mixer, and hard to hear at first
and to bring up a side point. i've found that as my knowledge of music theory increases, it is easier for me to accompany a song say, on a piano or synthesizer, as i can form chords and melodies that are in key and sound good. in fact, for me lately it's almost more enjoyable to jam along on an instrument than it has been to find compatible songs and mix them in with the turntables. i wonder as more djs pay attention to harmonic mixing and music theory if we'll start to see more djs who not only mix records but also accompany and add their own bit of flair with an instrument? or am i the only one who does this ;-) |
|
|
| Nemesis44 |
| quote: | Originally posted by qualia
yep, pitch axis theory is actually kinda related to all this, as it dictates which chords sound good and accompany each mode. the scale notes are generally the notes from which chords and chord progressions are formed, so i would think that knowing the exact mode of a song is like knowing more about the chords it uses... but i agree, this is definitely for the more seasoned harmonic mixer, and hard to hear at first
and to bring up a side point. i've found that as my knowledge of music theory increases, it is easier for me to accompany a song say, on a piano or synthesizer, as i can form chords and melodies that are in key and sound good. in fact, for me lately it's almost more enjoyable to jam along on an instrument than it has been to find compatible songs and mix them in with the turntables. i wonder as more djs pay attention to harmonic mixing and music theory if we'll start to see more djs who not only mix records but also accompany and add their own bit of flair with an instrument? or am i the only one who does this ;-) |
Nope I love to accompany tracks with side melodies be it chords or even extra melodies. I think it's natural if you are a musician.
cheers
Nem |
|
|
| Pinokio |
Hey can somebody help me find the key for this song
Freek Geuze Pres Splitscreen - Boomblasta (Original Mix)
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF275957-01-02-01.mp3
I don't know exactly why but I feel confused when trying to find the key for this song.
Thanks in Advance
Pepa |
|
|
| Nemesis44 |
Don't know about the others here but I put the root note at E. Only sitting with laptop speakers right now though. Had to play with mouse so can't play chords. Found that the B note worked nicely with it as well but E sounds correct at least on these speakers.
Scale used though sounds typical that you might find in a horror movie or something to give it that menace so it's not a straight forward major or minor. As I said, can't play chords at the moment to tell you. Sorry dude.
Cheers
Nem |
|
|
| Omega_Blue |
| quote: | Originally posted by Pinokio
Hey can somebody help me find the key for this song
Freek Geuze Pres Splitscreen - Boomblasta (Original Mix)
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF275957-01-02-01.mp3
I don't know exactly why but I feel confused when trying to find the key for this song.
Thanks in Advance
Pepa |
Em, with a flatted 2nd scale degree (E phrygian mode). pretty much play all the white keys from E to E. cheers |
|
|
| Pinokio |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nemesis44
Don't know about the others here but I put the root note at E. Only sitting with laptop speakers right now though. Had to play with mouse so can't play chords. Found that the B note worked nicely with it as well but E sounds correct at least on these speakers.
Scale used though sounds typical that you might find in a horror movie or something to give it that menace so it's not a straight forward major or minor. As I said, can't play chords at the moment to tell you. Sorry dude.
Cheers
Nem |
Hey thanks for your help Nem
what do you mean with "not straight forward major or minor?
are there more than one keys in this song?
Thanks in Advance
Pepa |
|
|
|
|
