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Palestinian-Israeli Conflict Thread (pg. 11)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
I don't know exactly why I am continuing this discussion, as it looks like you have clearly gone mad. But perhaps for those lurkers that might actually be following this thread...
The British gave the UN which gave Israel the land.
The British won this land during WWI from the Ottoman empire. This is akin to how the nations of Poland, Serbia, Croatia, South Korea, North Korea, South Africa, Kenya, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Greece, Albania, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Taiwan, Belarus, Ireland, every single Caribbean and Pacific country... and I could go on and on and on.
Most of the countries in the world are very young, many less than 50, most under a 100.
So why should Israel be singled out?
Lets all recreate the Ottoman empire, right? I'm sure you would like that, Crimean War anyone?
How exactly did Russia obtain those territories? Isn't it time it was given back to the people there? Who were massacred and weren't provided with the opportunity to stay in refugee camps?
Free Crimean Tartaria!
Israel is more densely populated than any other Arab country. Seriously, where do you come up with this nonsense? |
LOL, Yeah, British consented to Israel' EXISTENCE. But noone gave Israel jurisdiction to expand its borders and FORCEFULLY remove Arabs. I am not against Israel's right to existence, thats not what I am talking about - but on the other hand you dont give a about Palestinian people. You are quite comfortable to blame it all on Arab states, let them take care of the issue, and nooooooo, Israel is innocent here.
Ummm, buddy, I am not talking about Crimea here, that first of all is not part of Russia today! AND THEY WERE ALLOWED TO MOVE BACK TO THEIR LANDS, 12-15 YEARS after they were removed. Actually, MORE Crimean Tatars came back than those who were removed. Today Crimean Tatars DONT LIVE in refugee camps. So shut the hell up and stick to the topic.
Yoepus, you fail to respond to the main points I brought up, you shift topics and use your Zionist propaganda. You are a Zionist agent, just like Shaolin said, to support your Zionist causes and coontinue the support of policies in Israel to oppress Palestinian ... oops, I meant to say ARAB people (SINCE you dont think they are PALESTINIAN). |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
[COLOR=FF7F50]
You guys are arguing whether its fair to call these people Palestinian or not. I am talking about whether these people who lived for many years on those lands having rights to their lands. The fact is, these people were forced out whether you like it not. And they weren't "100% Palestinian" but a mixture of cultures from historic developments. That impurity does not warrant and allow the forceful and illegal expulsion of these people from their lands. |
I am third generation Polish and Romanian (my grandparents lived there). My grandparents were not afforded with the luxury of expulsion but tormented through the holocaust.
Today, I am not eligible for Polish or Romanian citizenship.
My grandparents were never compensated from the Polish or Romanian governments for the land and property that was stolen from them.
(One of my grandfathers was only compensated for labor he preformed for the Nazi in one of their slave camps (this was the only compensation he would accept) but even this was a token sum).
So I ask you, what is the statue of limitation on this?
My family came from countries that still exist today, and did much worse to my family then you could ever dream of Israel doing to the Palestinians. Yet I have no "right of return" and no legal way to obtain compensation for the tragedies that have befallen my family.
The Palestinians of course have never been apart of a country since the fall of the Ottoman empire. A nation that exist no more. Of course I would never dream asking for the right of return to Poland or Romanian, I would not wish a cent be given to me. I have come to terms with the past, and will not accept their charity so they can feel good about themselves when I am in no need of it.
So I ask, what is the statue of limitation on right of return? What is the statue of limitation on compensation?
Israel has never annexed Gaza and does not claim it as a part of Israel. It was administered by Egypt (which similarly does not claim it as part of its nation) from 1948 - 1967. It was administered by Israel from 1967 - 1993. It is now under its own administration under Hamas, its freely elected government.
Similarly, most other refugee camps are under jurisdiction of Hamas (previously under jurisdiction of the PLO when that government was in power since 1993). Israel administers some part of the West Bank, but usually not the heavily populated regions - like the refugee camps and cities.
Again, Israel has not annexed the West Bank (accept parts around Jerusalem) and does not claim it as its territory. It is simply administering it as per its obligation as an occupying power until a peace treaty can be signed. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
LOL, Yeah, British consented to Israel' EXISTENCE. But noone gave Israel jurisdiction to expand its borders and FORCEFULLY remove Arabs. I am not against Israel's right to existence, thats not what I am talking about |
But you are: Israel was entitled to expand its border and forcefully remove Arabs as guaranteed by the UN Security Council Charter (Chapter 7), whereby each country is entitled to self-defense.
Or are you now saying that that Israel started the war in 1948 because the Arabs decided not to accept the UN mandate and move their armies on the newly created nation? :rolleyes:
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Ummm, buddy, I am not talking about Crimea here, that first of all is not part of Russia today! AND THEY WERE ALLOWED TO MOVE BACK TO THEIR LANDS, 12-15 YEARS after they were removed. |
I was making a parrallel to point out your hypocrisy in relation to Israel, which was a country founded with the agreement of the British who controlled it for 30 years. (Just like the Soviet Union/Russia ruled Crimea form 1856, then it was under the Ukraine in 1992, and was later allowed autonomous rule in 1997 with a treaty with Ukraine.
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Actually, MORE Crimean Tatars came back than those who were removed. Today Crimean Tatars DONT LIVE in refugee camps. So shut the hell up and stick to the topic. |
Tatars don't exist as a people today because they were exterminated by the Russians, I guess they didn't teach you that in school, huh?
Before Russia conquered Crimea in war, its population was overwhelmingly Crimean Tatars. Today it is less than 13%.
An example of why:
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On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars were forcibly deported to Central Asia by Stalin's Soviet government as a form of collective punishment on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazi occupation forces. On 21 May 1944, the ethnic cleansing of Crimea was complete. An estimated 46 % of the deportees died from hunger and disease. In 1967, the Crimean Tatars were rehabilitated, but they were banned from legally returning to their homeland until the last days of the Soviet Union.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Soviet_Union
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It is very obvious why there are no Tatar refugees: they were killed and those that escaped moved on.
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Yoepus, you fail to respond to the main points I brought up, you shift topics and use your Zionist propaganda. You are a Zionist agent, just like Shaolin said, to support your Zionist causes and coontinue the support of policies in Israel to oppress Palestinian ... oops, I meant to say ARAB people (SINCE you dont think they are PALESTINIAN). |
If by Zionist propaganda you mean facts (and then doses of my opinion) than yes, I do it. I am no agent of anyone, I am not being paid to do this (quiet the contrary as I am doing this at the expense of working, which does make me money).
I do recognize in the Palestinian people (I was simply pointing out they were a new nation, a movement that started only in the 1960s) and I do not support in oppressing them. I think not recognizing in Palestinian is as silly as not recognizing Israel. Its delusional. The reality is what it is today. I am a pragmatist.
But I do believe in Israel's welfare before Palestinian's welfare. Israels place as a nation in this world is not secure, it is not rock solid such as Russia or Canada, it is in a very very chaotic part of the world, between the millions of the most radically angry people on the planet. Until its place can be guaranteed and a sense of calm can return, I just don't see how Israel can really let up.
What do you propose it do? Subject itself to the whims of the Arab world? |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
What do you propose it do? Subject itself to the whims of the Arab world? |
Better question: What exactly is there to subject to if they already HAVE everything?
It's almost a classic case of envy where a new neighbor comes in and builds a beautiful house where once nothing stood.
How would you feel if you were one of those that have lived there for, say, 10-15-20 years status quo? Probably a little embarrassed.
People would be scouring the city by-laws, finding anything they could to bring them down. Why? Because people hate seeing success when it's not themselves. |
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| Magnetonium |
There's really no point arguing you. You can live in your little world. Reality speaks louder than your words of blame on the enemy. What fascinated me the most, is that you think that Israel is innocent of any wrongdoing or mistakes, errors it did to Arabs throughout its existence, which blemishes your view. You ignore the crimes of Israelis, and for that you have little credibility because you have no sense of guilt, remorse or understanding for Arab suffering at the hands of Israel. Any decent person will see your warped view of the world as selfish and people will not believe you. You are the kind that people become anti-semitic from, videos pictures and articles dont lie when you see Israel shedding blood of innocent Palestinians. There's a reason for the ever-strong anti-semitism around the world, and it will not subside anytime soon because of people like you.
And dont compare Gaza/West Bank to Israel - they were part of Israel for many years - even to the 2000's, not 1993 - thats when they gained AUTONOMY, and actually only recently did the Jewish settlers were finally moved out of the Arab land within Gaza/West Bank, so technically Palestinians got their "freedom" recently, and are still not free of Israeli terror. Look how well Israel built Arab lands under it control, where povery, crime, hate, and weak infrastructure was the proud achievement while outside the barbed wire Israelis have themselves a state-of-the-art "democratic" fully infrastucture country. Israel did jack for Palestinians oops I mean Arabs. Palestine is not a country as much as you'd like to claim it, its still part of Israel.
As for your story, well, it was Nazis fault, and subsequent German generations paid for it, apologized and Jews are actually moving back to Germany from coountries like Russia in bigger numbers. As for Poland/Romania and whatever else you ascribe - you wouldn't want to live there, they dont have the money for you, and you won't get anything because its your parents who have any ability to claim things - and Soviet bloc countries long forfeited their rights to claims from Nazi damages thanks to communist policies. Only in 1991 did people finally were able to openly mourn and file lawsuits from Eastern bloc, receive money from German corporations who were guilty because for decades communists prevented their people from seeking whats right. Blame communism. |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
It's almost a classic case of envy where a new neighbor comes in and builds a beautiful house where once nothing stood.
How would you feel if you were one of those that have lived there for, say, 10-15-20 years status quo? Probably a little embarrassed.
People would be scouring the city by-laws, finding anything they could to bring them down. Why? Because people hate seeing success when it's not themselves. |
This explains not only why most arabs hate Israel, but lefties as well.
Part of the socialist mindset is the instinct to side with "the underdog" in any conflict. Whoever happens to the poorest or weakest in any given situation tends to get sympathy from the left, regardless of the consequences. The Palestinians and other arabs in the middle east have a completely ass backwards culture. Their large nations are MUCH WEAKER than what a small number of Jews have built in Israel...and weakness elicits sympathy among lefties/socialists. Everything boils down to economics with the left. They tend to view the world through the prism of class...seeing everything in terms of rich & poor rather than right/wrong. This is why their moral compass has been so easily twisted to favor evil agendas in the past.
As long as a cause is for "the poor" or "the underdog", be it the working class in Stalin's Russia or impoverished Islamofascists today, you can count on the left to support the worst humanity has to offer, as long as they are perceived to be fighting against "the powers that be." |
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| Subey |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Everything boils down to economics with the left. They tend to view the world through the prism of class...seeing everything in terms of rich & poor rather than right/wrong. |
Where do you see the center of mass in the warping of the Right's prism? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
This explains not only why most arabs hate Israel, but lefties as well.
Part of the socialist mindset is the instinct to side with "the underdog" in any conflict. Whoever happens to the poorest or weakest in any given situation tends to get sympathy from the left, regardless of the consequences. The Palestinians and other arabs in the middle east have a completely ass backwards culture. Their large nations are MUCH WEAKER than what a small number of Jews have built in Israel...and weakness elicits sympathy among lefties/socialists. Everything boils down to economics with the left. They tend to view the world through the prism of class...seeing everything in terms of rich & poor rather than right/wrong. This is why their moral compass has been so easily twisted to favor evil agendas in the past.
As long as a cause is for "the poor" or "the underdog", be it the working class in Stalin's Russia or impoverished Islamofascists today, you can count on the left to support the worst humanity has to offer, as long as they are perceived to be fighting against "the powers that be." |
Are you that ignorant and deluded dude? It has nothing to do with "sympathy for the poor" and any other nonsensical capitalistic right wing drivel you're spouting right now. Can you understand the simple fact that the Palestinians are and were the indigenous population of the region known as Palestine and Zionists zealots had every intention of forcibly removing and coercing the indigenous Palestinian Arbabs to create a Jewish majority state by destroying their homes and infrastructe to rebuilt illegal settlements and illegally expand and steal more and more land? Can you think outside of the left right paradigm for just a split second or are you really that degenerate and mindless? Do you know billions of our tax dollar in the from of monetary aid and weapons to Israel annually so it can illegaly expand it's boundires, impose an illegal military occupation, and continue it's routine imposion of state sponsored terrorism and some of the worst act human rights vilations? All this at the expense of the American tax payer, American perception abraod, and our national security. You might not give a flying about those sand****** goyim, but do you at the very least give a about your own country? Or are you ok with it the state of Israel hijacking it's wealth, resources, and political/military/stategic standing to futher their own agenda via the Israeli lobby in the US?
And please don't even begin talking about right an wrong. If theft, agression, genocide, and utter disregard for human rights and international law, including the Geneva Convention, is your definition of moral or ethical behaviour, well, you're pretty ing hopeless. Might as well become best buds with Rockefeller's and other theives and thugs who operate the private corperate institute know as the Federal Reserve. |
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| Capitalizt |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Are you that ignorant and deluded dude? It has nothing to do with "sympathy for the poor" and any other nonsensical capitalistic right wing drivel you're spouting right now. Can you understand the simple fact that the Palestinians are and were the indigenous population of the region known as Palestine and Zionists zealots had every intention of forcibly removing and coercing the indigenous Palestinian Arbabs to create a Jewish majority state by destroying their homes and infrastructe to rebuilt illegal settlements and illegally expand and steal more and more land? Can you think outside of the left right paradigm for just a split second or are you really that degenerate and mindless? Do you know billions of our tax dollar in the from of monetary aid and weapons to Israel annually so it can illegaly expand it's boundires, impose an illegal military occupation, and continue it's routine imposion of state sponsored terrorism and some of the worst act human rights vilations? All this at the expense of the American tax payer, American perception abraod, and our national security. You might not give a flying about those sand****** goyim, but do you at the very least give a about your own country? Or are you ok with it the state of Israel hijacking it's wealth, resources, and political/military/stategic standing to futher their own agenda via the Israeli lobby in the US?
And please don't even begin talking about right an wrong. If theft, agression, genocide, and utter disregard for human rights and international law, including the Geneva Convention, is your definition of moral or ethical behaviour, well, you're pretty ing hopeless. Might as well become best buds with Rockefeller's and other theives and thugs who operate the private corperate institute know as the Federal Reserve. |
Oh boy shaolin, did I hit a nerve?
There are many reasons to oppose Israel. I just revealed the one that dominates all others in your subconscious. A little truth can be painful eh? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Oh boy shaolin, did I hit a nerve?
There are many reasons to oppose Israel. I just revealed the one that dominates all others in your subconscious. A little truth can be painful eh? |
I'm just a little disappointed, because I respect your opinion otherwise. That's all.
EDIT: I guess I could have toned it down a bit.
EDIT2:
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Oh boy shaolin, did I hit a nerve? |
And it 'goy' to you mister, lol. [j/k] ;) |
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| PETRAN |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Are you that ignorant and deluded dude? It has nothing to do with "sympathy for the poor" and any other nonsensical capitalistic right wing drivel you're spouting right now. Can you understand the simple fact that the Palestinians are and were the indigenous population of the region known as Palestine and Zionists zealots had every intention of forcibly removing and coercing the indigenous Palestinian Arbabs to create a Jewish majority state by destroying their homes and infrastructe to rebuilt illegal settlements and illegally expand and steal more and more land? Can you think outside of the left right paradigm for just a split second or are you really that degenerate and mindless? Do you know billions of our tax dollar in the from of monetary aid and weapons to Israel annually so it can illegaly expand it's boundires, impose an illegal military occupation, and continue it's routine imposion of state sponsored terrorism and some of the worst act human rights vilations? All this at the expense of the American tax payer, American perception abraod, and our national security. You might not give a flying about those sand****** goyim, but do you at the very least give a about your own country? Or are you ok with it the state of Israel hijacking it's wealth, resources, and political/military/stategic standing to futher their own agenda via the Israeli lobby in the US?
And please don't even begin talking about right an wrong. If theft, agression, genocide, and utter disregard for human rights and international law, including the Geneva Convention, is your definition of moral or ethical behaviour, well, you're pretty ing hopeless. Might as well become best buds with Rockefeller's and other theives and thugs who operate the private corperate institute know as the Federal Reserve.
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Very well said mate! Apparently i'm shocked with the "pseudo-logical" responses of these people who, in order to pass their view, they claim extremely ridiculous analogies and arguments such as the guy before who said one of the most disturbing and utterly stupid arguments which went like:
"Oh, if someone came and built a villa near your poor house wouldn't you be jealous?"(!?!)
WTF! What kind of bloody capitalist-western faulse-as-hell analogy do you bring to the current situation? Do you think that these people think like you do? Do you think that most of these people seat at their homes in front of the 20" monitors surfing in various random internet sites, alternating between "trance forums" and "child-porn" like you do? Is this a fault simplified version of what (unfortunately) seems to be an "argument"? Can you, even for a while (2 secs) take another perspective for a while seriously now? And i don't mean to close your eyes and think where could you buy hard-drives and the new nokia mobile if you lived in Palestine. I ask you to really de-individualise yourself, drop all your values, attitudes and beliefs for a while and think, how would it have been if you were a small poor child who sees its parents get violently killed by some people that you've never seen before?No villas, no bloody poor houses, not jealousy. Just watching deaths. The same goes to israel and to suicide bombings.You would be outraged and blindly angry . And since it seems that there are gaps in your religion (it seems most religions)which allow you to express your anger since most religions postulate and pre-determine the right and wrong- a kind of universal justice-and since this justice was broken by some enemy of yours, religion could justify your anger and even allow you to freely express it.
People seem not being able to understand the complexity of the situation. They like to pseudo-logicaly deduce their ideas,and state simplified phrases such as "Israel-Westernised-Good", "Arabs-Fanatic-Bad". Do you really think that this is the case? Has anyone ever thought that this kind of religious extremism could be the result of the continuous supression that these people continuously receive? I believe that there is a mechanism that when a culture/social system is found under severe strain (of any sorts), it would tend to return to its more traditional views and values, such as the strengthening of religion and the overall increase of the "moral codes". It is not islam that makes these people to desperately go and sacrifice themselves by bombing innocent poor civilians. It is rather the desperation of human that makes him/her to go extreme by means of his/her religion. I can easily think of an imaginary scenario, where a severely supressed USA (in which frequent attacks by some imaginary attacker would be the norm)could be rulled by a kind of an extreme evangelist party that in turn would preach about the return to "the moral values", about how everyone should stick together and have a strong belief to the "one and only god",about how science is evil ,about how the people that don't believe to the "one and true" god are evil, and on how the "enemies" of the state should be destroyed once and for-all with the help of sweet lord jesus christ. Do you find it "extreme" and "impossible"? It unfortunately wouldn't be and it seems that this crazy retarted cowboy who rules the nation seems to allready phrase similar "godly" statements...
Its an endless cycle, the whole system flows reciprocally in both dimensions. Blood brings more blood and nothing else. It is THAT simple. I honestly can't see how is this difficult to understand. I am terrified though when i see people state "logical" arguments that seem to certify the killings of innocent humans. "HUMANS" that is! Not Arabs. Not Israelis. HUMANS. |
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| Capitalizt |
**group hug**
ok, now let me say something. Yes, the situation sucks in the middle east...and Yes, Israel has committed crimes against innocent people. But looking at it from their perspective, I can also see WHY they have been expanding their borders and taking a heavy-handed approach to security. They have been attacked repeatedly over the past century...several times by massive armies, and today by rockets, car bombs, and suicide bombers. The Israelis are surrounded ON ALL SIDES by Arab states that want to see them destroyed. The Palestinians just voted a huge number of Hezbollah members into power...and Hezbollah has made no qualms about their desire to eradicate all of the Jews. The arabs are using every tool at their disposal to murder and destroy everything the Jews have built in Israel, and *IF* these people had the ability to destroy Israel today, I really don't think they would hesitate! Hezbollah would drop the bomb in a heartbeat and feel little guilt over it.
Israel on the other hand HAS THE ABILITY...RIGHT NOW...to kill every Palestinian...to destroy every settlement and every city where their enemies are hiding. They could even wipe out major parts of entire countries (Iran, etc) that are making direct threats to them. Israel has 100-200 nukes in their arsenal, and they could erase all of their enemies tomorrow morning if they chose to...but of course they would never dream of it! This would be the ultimate sin in their eyes. Their God would NEVER forgive them for these horrible actions...but the twisted version of Islam we see in Palestine and nearby regions is ENCOURAGING violence and murder against non-believers...especially the Jews! So not only do the arabs think they are politically justified in murdering millions of Jews...but morally and spiritually justified as well!!!
This is what makes the big difference, and where we need to draw the line as a civilized people. Despite the abuses perpetrated by Israel, they are the lesser of two evils in this conflict, and they are showing restraint that their enemies would certainly not. They may have flaws, but Israel represents the best hope for freedom and progress in that area of the world today. If the Jews were to leave, we would have another Hamas/Hezbollah/Taliban-esque government take hold in the region...and if you truly care about human rights, you should realize how horrible this would be. |
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