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Palestinian-Israeli Conflict Thread (pg. 2)
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Immediately after the 1967 war Israel wanted to exchange all its captured territory with a peace treaty with its neighbors. Returning Gaza and Sinai to Egypt, the West Bank to Jordan, and the Golan Heights to Syria.
Of course, none of the Arab parties showed up at the tables, because understandably had they negotiated even such a generous peace treaty as this they would have had their governments shooken up; therein lies the problem.
During the 1978 peace treaty, Israel basically pleaded with Egypt to take back Gaza. But of course, Egypt refused preffering to leave the Palestinians in a state of destitute which it could continually have against Israel.
Sure the conditions there are horrible now. However, how were they in 1978, in 1984? Not as bad. Yet people rose up and created terror. Today, it is despicable and there is less terror. So I wouldn't necessarily connect the conditions people live in to terror.
Afterall, if this were true most of the third world would have suicide bombings ever other minute.
Its not that us Israelis don't understand the conditions exist or that the Palestinians don't have the best circumstances. However, until the Palestinians realize they can never win, they will perpetuate themselves into even worse and worse misery.
I believe only by accepting Israel, but understanding they have lost, will they be able to move on. However, they refuse to recognize they are a defeated people; and therein stems the problem. |
Sorry I wandered off to Arab support - I am actually talking about the Palestinian people. "Accepting" Israel is not important, its obvious right now Israel exists, and any peace treaty is literal acknowledgement of acceptance of its existence.
Palestinian people rose up and fought as a result of Israeli terror, not because they had nothing to do. While Jews formed their own state within Israel, well-organized and planned, they hardly did much to help Palestinians to create the same system, and their constant incursions, missile strikes, wars on Palestinian lands have scarred people so much that they will probably fight for a long time. Palestinian people are scarred, my friend, and the new generation of children is fed this hate, from Israeli oppression. Its not the Hamas gunmen who psychologically abuse their people, its the Israeli occupational gestapo-like tactics that do.
I dont want to talk about Arab states here and their issues - neither Arabs nor Palestinians have helped Palestinians much and both use the situation to their own advantage. But Palestinians are located within Israel, so its Israeli responsibility for their future because they hold the keys to the Palestinian people's future. Quite frankly, Arab states are not fighting for Palestinian people, they are fighting for eliminating the threat of Israel to them. And people living in Arab lands like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and such dont really live in very good conditions either.
Its not just the American, Israeli and Arab fault for the terrible situation within Palestinian lands, Palestinians themselves have to do some work, they obviously have people within their system who are undermining the progress and Israel then causes more damage because it falls for the radicals system - radicals try to inflict damage on Israel and every Israeli attack back on innocent Palestinians makes them a winner, but Israel fails to see that. But exactly what do you suggest Palestinian civilians to do? They cant emigrate - there are already many thousands of them gone to other countries, filled quotas, in the States, Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, etc. and the rest live in refugee camps, permanently displaced because of Israel. What do you suggest Palestinians can do to improve their own situation? What will the removal of Hamas do? Will that grant their independence? Will Israel ever return the Palestinian lands it illegally occupied?Will that give them equal funding, rights and support? Until Israel gives them complete freedom, there's no point in discussing Palestinian future, because when Israel bombs and ruins the Palestinian infrastructure, and then leaves claiming they have removed troops, the ruined land becomes overpowered by those who try to undermine it for their own benefit.
The Arab-Israeli wars were fought between Israel and Arab states, but ultimately the Palestinian peoples plight was ignored. You shouldn't take either sides' words for Palestinian cause, you should listen to Palestinian people, because they see from years of suffering that neither side has solved their problems. |
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| Lira |
Okay then, I see this thread eventually evolved into a proper discussion. From now on, please, post arguments about the Palestinian condition here.
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
A natural first reaction, that I had as well. So I set up a stickam meeting in order to clarify. Turns out that it's an experiment he's doing for part of a sociology course.
Apparently he's trying to simulate a police state, whose ultimate purpose is to see if we *rebel*. |
Damn, I've been rumbled :( :p
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
yeah, it's important to show how the entire Arab world continues to use the Palestinian plight for selfish, nearsighted, political posturing followed only by complete abandonment for decades. real important stuff. |
Yes, it is important as a valid part of a point of view regardless of your opinion on this matter. In fact, whether or not you agree with it does not concern its existence (whether it should or shouldn't be here), but its validity (whether it's true or false). I'm giving both Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine posters the opportunity to speak up. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
I'm sure none of it has to do with rockets flying over the border either?
Let's not kid ourselves, Israel has tried a few times to bend over backwards only to get screwed by radicals (I'm not pointing out the Palestinians per say here so watch it) that Palestine can't seem, or want to control.
I'm sure if Israel wanted, it could totally ignore everybody around them just fine; they have everything already!
There's nothing within thousands of miles and they're doing it all with just 8,5501 sq mi...
While it is tragic to point out the kids, what exactly has Palestine done to change their situation other than point to Israel?
Do we just throw personal responsibility out the window when it's just easier to blame someone else?
It's today's societal hamartia and it's certainly reflected here IMHO.
Sorry if this sounds harsh for some of you, but I can't feel sorry for people who can't, and obviously won't, help themselves, especially when it comes to their own children.
I'm sure some of you are rolling your eyes right about now, probably thinking, "Just how dumb are you? You obviously don't understand..." etc. and I say back, "Get a spine and think of the children first".
This situation isn't new and they've failed to do ANYTHING to change it.
In fact, it's be ISRAEL who has been trying.
Just before their recent retaliation they were on the verge of a landmark deal with Palestine and what happens? Rockets and the kidnapping of soldiers. What the hell are they thinking??
I'll see if I can find the article relating to the deal they almost had, I know I've posted it before but I have to jet...
We'll continue this later... |
The family in the video, who can they turn to for help? Israel will not help them. Palestinian government will not help them. There were no apologies issues, no damages paid. Innocent family forever psychologically harmed.
In 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, whatever, you claim Palestinians lived much happier. Tell me this:
1) Did Palestinians have independent state?
2) Were many Palestinians able to return to lands that Israel had illegally forced them from?
3) Did Israel do anything to accomodate the Palestinian people living in refugee camps?
4) Did Israel pay for all damages and did it apologize for illegally forcing out over 700,000 Palestinian people from their homes permanently?
5) Did they receive the same funds as lets say Israel for its Jewish population? How much money did USA give to Israel of which ended up in Palestinian coffers?
Quite frankly, Palestinians within Israel still lived within refugee camps. Their mainly low income or unemployed population rose to ranks of Hamas, resistance and such. Crime, conditions, life within these was terrible, and thats where resistance took roots. Israel did little or nothing to return these people within its territories to normal life with their own homes.
In other lands, like Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt and others, Palestinian people managed to become real people again with homes and jobs. Though by sheer numbers not all are able to establish normal lives. These countries have their own problem with poverty and bad conditions, so there's little they can do. In Saudi Arabia, there's a substantial of now well-off immigrant Palestinian population thats lobbying for Palestine. |
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| Lilith |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
It's a human issue. As soon as you move it to an arena of Arab vs Whomever then you have done exactly that, moved it to an arena.
Then your comments are reduced to mere pennant waving. Go team Go! |
Which forms the majority of the comments we'll see here aside from people throwing history around and long winded lumps of cut-pasted text about specific incidents and how one side is doing worse than the other.
It'll be a rare day when we have a 'do-er' rather than a 'talker' who's actually been to one of these places, seen it with their own eyes and made an opinion on it for themselves rather than what they read provided by biased publications and media sources.
And they're all biased :)
Just like people's opinions will be formed by a bias one way or another by absorbing enough of it over time along with any people they know or ethnic ties going back. Far be it from me to sway anyone's opinion here because they're already well ingrained and polarised and anything objective I say here usually gets the replies of 'I don't understand', which in turn just irritates me because it's like talking to a brick wall after awhile.
But spare me the faux human sympathies.
You don't know these people, don't know their lives and really don't know very much aside from what you read and watch and you all mostly live in well developed 1st world countries which have contributed their own sins and ignorance toward either side, plus a lot of arms sales to keep the conflict rolling as long as the money is coming in.
The utilities, schools you go/went too, comparatively high lifestyles you lead are paid for by these arms sales in one way or another, not all of it, but there's plenty of dirty dollars, roubles, pounds and cents floating around in your economies that essentially make up the sum of your surroundings, education and lifestyle.
Plenty of blood on everyone's hands to go around, rub in nice and deep, it's kept you in first class health care and let you grow up strong and unbowed.
I'll cut it short because I'm pressed for time and have a lot to do.
Either do something or don't.
Talking about it never really seems to do very much except have us landed with more pomposity and self-righteousness than you'd find in an organised religion :) |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Which forms the majority of the comments we'll see here aside from people throwing history around and long winded lumps of cut-pasted text about specific incidents and how one side is doing worse than the other.
It'll be a rare day when we have a 'do-er' rather than a 'talker' who's actually been to one of these places, seen it with their own eyes and made an opinion on it for themselves rather than what they read provided by biased publications and media sources.
And they're all biased :)
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Not all are biased. There are plenty of people on here that talk about Palestinian issues as their own fault. I merely try to keep things even, though I know Hamas and such have their share of crimes. Am I biased for speaking up to support an average Palestinian civilian who is suffering from this conflict?
| quote: |
But spare me the faux human sympathies.
You don't know these people, don't know their lives and really don't know very much aside from what you read and watch and you all mostly live in well developed 1st world countries which have contributed their own sins and ignorance toward either side, plus a lot of arms sales to keep the conflict rolling as long as the money is coming in. |
Hmmm, well, I lived in Russia, I've experienced the true effect of poverty. In 1991, Soviet Union's crash vapourized many people's savings, and market economy destroyed the rouble. I was left with my grandparents while my parents emigrated to Canada unable to move entire family. For the next 6 years I saw the misery. I never had birthday parties, never heard of computers until I came to Canada, didnt know such thing as hockey or baseball existed, candy was a special treat to me, and grandparents pension not always came in on time, etc.. We survived because my parents sent money from Canada.
I can't even imagine the worse horrors the Palestinians go through on a daily basis. At least we had a TV. In Palestine, people live through poverty, crime, Israeli shelling and own Palestinian and world ignorance of the situation.
Palestinian radicals cant afford to buy guns - they get them for free from support abroad. You cant say people dont care about Palestinians, because some prominent people give Palestinians money and food, but most of money goes to guns, and other donations include guns from overly generous arabic states. At the same time, America pays billions of dollars to Israel every year to fund their allies. Palestinian children have been so traumatized by IDF and so brainwashed by Hamas, they'll do anything. This is the next radical generation growing up, living in the ruins.
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| quote: |
The utilities, schools you go/went too, comparatively high lifestyles you lead are paid for by these arms sales in one way or another, not all of it, but there's plenty of dirty dollars, roubles, pounds and cents floating around in your economies that essentially make up the sum of your surroundings, education and lifestyle.
Plenty of blood on everyone's hands to go around, rub in nice and deep, it's kept you in first class health care and let you grow up strong and unbowed.
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Yeah, sure, Canada sells arms to Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Palestine, yeah, sure :stongue: :rolleyes: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Which forms the majority of the comments we'll see here aside from people throwing history around and long winded lumps of cut-pasted text about specific incidents and how one side is doing worse than the other.
It'll be a rare day when we have a 'do-er' rather than a 'talker' who's actually been to one of these places, seen it with their own eyes and made an opinion on it for themselves rather than what they read provided by biased publications and media sources.
And they're all biased :)
Just like people's opinions will be formed by a bias one way or another by absorbing enough of it over time... |
So what does that have to do with analysis and research? By that argument, you shouldn't have an opinion on 99% of the world you haven't travelled to and "seen with your own eyes." That is not an arguemnt.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
...along with any people they know or ethnic ties going back. |
I'm not Palestinian in case you didn't notice.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Far be it from me to sway anyone's opinion here because they're already well ingrained and polarised and anything objective I say here usually gets the replies of 'I don't understand', which in turn just irritates me because it's like talking to a brick wall after awhile. |
Unless you can refute their arguments or at least substantiate your views and claims with sourced material, yes, you're not going to change anyone's mind. That requires doing your own homework and actually arguing the topic at hand as opposed to resorting to unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
But spare me the faux human sympathies.
You don't know these people, don't know their lives |
Subey's been here on PDD for a while. What makes you think you're in a better postion to say something like that anyways?
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
and really don't know very much aside from what you read and watch and you all mostly live in well developed 1st world countries which have contributed their own sins and ignorance toward either side, plus a lot of arms sales to keep the conflict rolling as long as the money is coming in.
The utilities, schools you go/went too, comparatively high lifestyles you lead are paid for by these arms sales in one way or another, not all of it, but there's plenty of dirty dollars, roubles, pounds and cents floating around in your economies that essentially make up the sum of your surroundings, education and lifestyle. |
Reference the beginning of the post.
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
Plenty of blood on everyone's hands to go around, rub in nice and deep, it's kept you in first class health care and let you grow up strong and unbowed. |
What a nice way to ignore or trivialize the root cause of the problem. Yes, the root cause is completely irrelevant to an acctual solution for a problem. I didn't know research and analysis is such a ridiculous approach, and God forbid drawing any conlusions from it. Care to enlighten us on whatever alternative it is that you consider to be a superior?
| quote: | Originally posted by Lilith
I'll cut it short because I'm pressed for time and have a lot to do.
Either do something or don't.
Talking about it never really seems to do very much except have us landed with more pomposity and self-righteousness than you'd find in an organised religion :) |
Right.
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:) |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Hmmm, well, I lived in Russia, |
no ? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
no ? |
If you experienced the true effect of misery in poverty, especially in day-to-day shelling, you'd keep your mouth shut. How about spending a month living in the slums of Palestinian refugee camps, eh? Lets see how you are going to think after that! Put yourself in those people's shoes, or else dont bother typing here. |
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
If you experienced the true effect of misery in poverty, especially in day-to-day shelling, you'd keep your mouth shut. How about spending a month living in the slums of Palestinian refugee camps, eh? Lets see how you are going to think after that! |
i was married for 9 years. thats gotta count for somethin. |
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| pmoisse |
| quote: | Originally posted by Q5echo
i was married for 9 years. thats gotta count for somethin. |
lol well played :) |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
1) Did Palestinians have independent state?
2) Were many Palestinians able to return to lands that Israel had illegally forced them from?
3) Did Israel do anything to accomodate the Palestinian people living in refugee camps?
4) Did Israel pay for all damages and did it apologize for illegally forcing out over 700,000 Palestinian people from their homes permanently?
5) Did they receive the same funds as lets say Israel for its Jewish population? How much money did USA give to Israel of which ended up in Palestinian coffers?
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What's your position on Chechnya? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
What's your position on Chechnya? |
Assuming his stance is the answer you seem to be prodding for, do two wrongs make a right? |
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