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Palestinian-Israeli Conflict Thread (pg. 9)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Looks Magnetonium, I'm not ignorant of the conflict. |
That's right. You're brainwashed, highly biased, and racist. Throw the goyim down the well? |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Looks Magnetonium, I'm not ignorant of the conflict. I am not saying all Palestinian Arabs migrated to the land. I am saying the majority did - just like the Jews. Just like the Palestinians, there are many Jews who can trace their ancestry to the land for many, many generations. And like the Palestinian Arabs many have been displaced from their homes because of this conflict (both Jericho and Hebron held significant Jewish communities thought the ages).
You can read up on it. There is a great article that goes into specific detail about it at: http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history...ry20020906.html
It is extracted apparently from the Harvard Israel Review
Then, to confirm the truthfulness of the population numbers you can verify this against wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...Mandate_periods
And make your own conclusions.
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After the Jewish expulsions, slowly and gradually Muslims became the majority. They have lived there for centuries and have rights to the land. Jews, Christians, Muslims have rights to these lands, not just Jews as in today's politics. Politics are a mess, and its true that it will probably never work because Arab states and radicals will never back down even if given a fair and equal share - just like the Bolsheviks, who loved to use the violence and propaganda for their own achivements. But you shouldn't praise your Israel, they are equally guilty, there are no better sides in this issue as you claim it to be.
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Lastly, I will add another point of history you may or may not be aware of: 500,000 - 800,000 Jews (similar in number to the amount of Palestinians displaced) were forced to move or it was so intolerable to stay and live in neighboring Arab countries as the state of Israel formed, and those nations no longer saw the Jews as part of them, but as an enemy.
Since 1948, Jews in Arab lands have been reduced by more than 99%.
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I hoped you wouldn't bring this point up, but its the truth. However, Jews moved mostly on their own, they had the money to do so, and Israel have lobbied and worked hard to get Jews together within Israel. It was a well coordinated and financed operation.
This wasnt the same for the Arabs/Palestinians within the borders of then-forming Israel. They had nowhere to go, nobody wanted them. The Arab states probably resisted expulsion of Palestinians. Its true that the Arabs didnt help their fellow Muslims from Palestinian lands very much. Its true that most of the Arab money destined for Palestinians is used for fighting Israel, instead of helping Palestinians. I know Arab states will prefer to see Palestinians suffer and blame it on Israel - they dont want it to be Israel's victory if they help. I am not all one-sided, I can see this. I just dont agree that Israel forced out over 700,000 Palestinians and have reduced their living to simply miserable. The terrible living conditions in Palestinian lands is whats feeding the Hamas and others.
Arabs failed at their chance in 1947-48 to recognize Israel and split even. They very cocky and thought they would roll over small Israel easily. But Israel had backing. And after series of Israeli victories, Arab states were even more determined to ignore the Palestinian peoples plight, they spent much more on arming the resistance than helping these people rebuild. Same goes with Israel. Israel could care less about Palestinians - they pushed Palestinians en masse out of their lands onto small refugee camps and outside of Israel.
What really made me dislike Israel is when they launched that dumb campaign against Lebanon in 2006/ After that, all compassion and support that I ever had for Israeli cause was gone. Israel showed yet again that they refuse to acknowledge and apologize for their mistakes, illegally using cluster bombs, destroying intentionally the infrastructure of the country - all for what - liberating 3 soldiers?
Israel should exist in my opinion, but not within today's borders. They must cede the lands they've taken since 1948, but then will the Arab comply with their share of peace deal? I doubt that, as Hamas will use this Israeli withdrawal as its own victory to continue the war. But Hamas was given birth from the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. Oh, boy, this is all double-crossed. This shows that the situation in Middle East will just not be solved.
I see too much one-sidedness in this forum in the Arab-Israeli issue. My main point is that neither Israel nor Arab states ever cared much for Palestinian people, both sides used them to their own advantage. Its time for both to step aside and give Palestinian people ultimate freedom, politically and economically, to build their own future, as the last 60 years have shown that noone else can or will help them. Then the peace will come by easier. Israel will need to restrain itself from hurting Palestinian people when its obvious that if Hamas strikes, you cannot strike back because you lose even more. |
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| shaolin_Z |
@ Magnetonium: You might want to reconsider the credibility of Wikipedia, especially when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue given how many Zionist trolls are engaging in a propaganda war on the net:
| quote: | The Times July 28, 2006
Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem
WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.
[b]Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.
In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.
Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.
“We’re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don’t ignore it, change it,” Mr Cline said. “A poll like CNN’s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What’s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.”
Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel’s way. “When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,” he said. “It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.
“It’s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.”
Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.
Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director, said: “The internet’s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We’re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.” |
Source: Times Online
tranceaddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > 660 Palestinians Killed In 2006 |
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| Yoepus |
Just wanted to point to put it in some sort of context; this article was run during the Israel-Lebanon war this past summer. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
This wasnt the same for the Arabs/Palestinians within the borders of then-forming Israel. They had nowhere to go, nobody wanted them. The Arab states probably resisted expulsion of Palestinians. Its true that the Arabs didnt help their fellow Muslims from Palestinian lands very much. Its true that most of the Arab money destined for Palestinians is used for fighting Israel, instead of helping Palestinians. I know Arab states will prefer to see Palestinians suffer and blame it on Israel - they dont want it to be Israel's victory if they help. I am not all one-sided, I can see this. I just dont agree that Israel forced out over 700,000 Palestinians and have reduced their living to simply miserable. The terrible living conditions in Palestinian lands is whats feeding the Hamas and others. |
Whatever your opinion, with this development; that 700,000 Arab Palestinians fled during war from Palestine and 700,000 Jews fled during war from Arabian countries to Palestine, why the large goating of silly demands such as; right of return and compensation?
Those Palestinians Arabs that didn't flee, are now known as Israeli Arabs, and are full-fledged citizens in the state of Israel enjoying some of the highest living standards of any Arab population.
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Arabs failed at their chance in 1947-48 to recognize Israel and split even. |
They also failed their chance in 1956, 1967, 1973, 1978, 1993, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2006...
How many more chances should they enjoy at Israel's expense?
| quote: |
What really made me dislike Israel is when they launched that dumb campaign against Lebanon in 2006/ After that, all compassion and support that I ever had for Israeli cause was gone. Israel showed yet again that they refuse to acknowledge and apologize for their mistakes, illegally using cluster bombs, destroying intentionally the infrastructure of the country - all for what - liberating 3 soldiers? |
You are misinformed of the conflict. The 3 soldiers were a trigger point, there was a massive Hezbullah build up on the border, it was not under UN jurisdicition as it should have been according to the ceasefire terms, ahd Hezbullah prior to these incidents conducted other overt operations against Israel. However, this is a large and complex debate point that I won't go into detail here. We can open another thread about it if you like...
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Israel should exist in my opinion, but not within today's borders. They must cede the lands they've taken since 1948, but then will the Arab comply with their share of peace deal? |
That is your opinion. But even most moderate Arab state (Saudia Arabia) require Israel to only cede land 'they've taken' since 1967. Ceding 1948 borders is ridicilous, since when does the loser decide the peace terms of the victor?
Why not, lets give Japan and Germany billions of dollars, all of Europe and most of Asia back, ya know, because millions of them died in the 1940s due to the use of nuclear weapons and cluster bombs, etc.. :rolleyes:
Weird argument you have there.
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I see too much one-sidedness in this forum in the Arab-Israeli issue.
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Which side?
I think everyone sees more of the side they are against. I think the lines are fairly well split in this forum on this issue however.
I would say the Arab supporters here are more numerous, and the Israeli supporters here more articulate/loud.
| quote: |
My main point is that neither Israel nor Arab states ever cared much for Palestinian people, both sides used them to their own advantage. Its time for both to step aside and give Palestinian people ultimate freedom, politically and economically, to build their own future, as the last 60 years have shown that noone else can or will help them. Then the peace will come by easier. Israel will need to restrain itself from hurting Palestinian people when its obvious that if Hamas strikes, you cannot strike back because you lose even more. |
Were you sleeping during the 90s? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Just wanted to point to put it in some sort of context; this article was run during the Israel-Lebanon war this past summer. |
Oh don't worry about the context, it's much more expansive than that. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Whatever your opinion, with this development; that 700,000 Arab Palestinians fled during war from Palestine and 700,000 Jews fled during war from Arabian countries to Palestine, why the large goating of silly demands such as; right of return and compensation?
Those Palestinians Arabs that didn't flee, are now known as Israeli Arabs, and are full-fledged citizens in the state of Israel enjoying some of the highest living standards of any Arab population.
They also failed their chance in 1956, 1967, 1973, 1978, 1993, 1995, 1998, 2001, 2006...
How many more chances should they enjoy at Israel's expense?
You are misinformed of the conflict. The 3 soldiers were a trigger point, there was a massive Hezbullah build up on the border, it was not under UN jurisdicition as it should have been according to the ceasefire terms, ahd Hezbullah prior to these incidents conducted other overt operations against Israel. However, this is a large and complex debate point that I won't go into detail here. We can open another thread about it if you like...
That is your opinion. But even most moderate Arab state (Saudia Arabia) require Israel to only cede land 'they've taken' since 1967. Ceding 1948 borders is ridicilous, since when does the loser decide the peace terms of the victor?
Why not, lets give Japan and Germany billions of dollars, all of Europe and most of Asia back, ya know, because millions of them died in the 1940s due to the use of nuclear weapons and cluster bombs, etc.. :rolleyes:
Weird argument you have there.
Which side?
I think everyone sees more of the side they are against. I think the lines are fairly well split in this forum on this issue however.
I would say the Arab supporters here are more numerous, and the Israeli supporters here more articulate/loud.
Were you sleeping during the 90s? |
Aaaagh, forget it. I got a bit soft hoping you'd also follow suit admit your own guilt over the Israeli mistakes. But, it didnt happen, you stick to your guns that Israel is an angel and doing things right, and its all Arabs fault and the 700,000 forced out Palestinians are not Israel's responsibility bla bla bla. You instead decided to continue your assault instead of noticing my unsual softness of the issue. Shaolin's right. You could never see the light. You are a Zionist, and will never see the truth.
Here's a question for you - how many Jews are living in refugee camps right now? How many innocent Palestinian civilians vs. Israelis have been killed in the last 6 years? How many homes have Israelis bombed out, how many farms grazed, how many more people forced out, how many banks and financial institutions closed???
Yay, praise the almighty Israel for letting Palestinians live happy and prosperous lives in the last 60 years WITHIN ISRAEL.
Even in 1990s, in your "dream paradise" of Israel, Palestinians always had the lower standards of living, much greater unemployment, greater poverty rates, crime, etc. etc. While Israel rebuilt itself and enjoys an amazing western-style lavish economy, Palestinians on the other hands were conditioned by Israel to be solely dependent on thy master Israel economically, sociallly and politically. Yay ayayayayayayay! Holly Yoepus you are quite a Zionist. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Aaaagh, forget it. I got a bit soft hoping you'd also follow suit admit your own guilt over the Israeli mistakes. But, it didnt happen, you stick to your guns that Israel is an angel and doing things right, and its all Arabs fault and the 700,000 forced out Palestinians are not Israel's responsibility bla bla bla. You instead decided to continue your assault instead of noticing my unsual softness of the issue. Shaolin's right. You could never see the light. You are a Zionist, and will never see the truth.
Here's a question for you - how many Jews are living in refugee camps right now? How many innocent Palestinian civilians vs. Israelis have been killed in the last 6 years? How many homes have Israelis bombed out, how many farms grazed, how many more people forced out, how many banks and financial institutions closed???
Yay, praise the almighty Israel for letting Palestinians live happy and prosperous lives in the last 60 years WITHIN ISRAEL.
Even in 1990s, in your "dream paradise" of Israel, Palestinians always had the lower standards of living, much greater unemployment, greater poverty rates, crime, etc. etc. While Israel rebuilt itself and enjoys an amazing western-style lavish economy, Palestinians on the other hands were conditioned by Israel to be solely dependent on thy master Israel economically, sociallly and politically. Yay ayayayayayayay! Holly Yoepus you are quite a Zionist. |
...and you are cracking lol :stongue:
you and Cyrus went to the same school of argumentative logic I see... |
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| qussay |
@ Capitalizt : Yeah , sure ... israel became very advanced , and prosporous on its own , with no significant help from any other country ... :rolleyes:
Israel holds the palestinain money until it decides when its suitable to release those PALESTINIAN FUNDS ! Such a Very civil , and advanced society ..... ! Any help given to the Palestinians from other countries , has to be OK'd from the US ( In other words Israel ) before doing so. Or else the US will automatically turn on the " Attack , they are a bunch of terrorists , and if they are not , then they will grow up to be, and if we cant prove anything , well .. tough luck " Button !
@ Haunted : so , if the palestinians can practice their religion without having any other equal rights like the israeli's and watch the majority of the Palestinians living outside israel die from daily attacks from the IDF , lack of food , medical care , and housing , things should be alright ... ? LOL .. youre too funny ... Long Live Jersy ! enjoy the brainwashing . And dont get me started on " THE WALL " that israel so democratically and humanitarily built !
The Arabs / Muslims need to be more educated and progress forward with their thinking , i agree , but that doesnt mean , in any way , that they give up simple rights , until they get university degrees !!!!
and sure , all we do is build bombs in our spare time , and think of the 72 virgins . Get a clue people ! Really ! |
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| tazzjayz |
First of all, yes the IDF isn't all good and but who cares they live in an environment where they are paranoid, nervous and stressed all day long, I've watched a lot of videos from both sides, and I feel sorry for both sides. Both sides have people looking for peace and people preaching hate, but the hate being preached by muslim fundamentalists is dangerous and is leading Palestine to it's downfall, as if it could get any worse.
I also watched that checkpoint video, there's so outrageous , but let me tell you something about Palestinian checkpoints in Lebanon during the civil war, they meant one thing, if you were not a muslim you have a greater chance of dying that passing through. I don't see Israeli soldiers lining people out and executing them, yet you want me to feel sorry for the people of Palestine, for what? for waiting in line a couple hours, I wait hours when I go to the doctor and i dont blow myself over it.
What Palestinians need to do is to just let it go, they are holding such a grudge that will lead them and their children nowhere but to years of war and conflict. All that crying needs to stop, because once that camera is turned off Daddy is telling Ahmed that one day they will kill all jews and go back to pickin off olives from that olive tree. They need to conceide defeat and accept whatever land they get offered.
What pisses me off even more is the attitudes of even people i know and that I see most days, a lot of my muslim friends have this dream of one day going to Israel and just blowing themselves up, I mean it's sick and twisted but it seems like a fantasy to a lot of them, yet my jewish friend's only want peace no matter how much their country needs to give away.
Which is the big picture, if these guys here in Canada have so much hate, how about the people there? They need a HUGE change, a social phenomenon, I dunno I can't think of anything that would let the palestian people to forgive and forget.
I'm not a religious person but there's some passage in the bible claiming that israel will be a country again but it will never have peace, it just freaks me out, I think it's the only place in the world that peace has no chance for a long long time. Although I really wish for it to settle down, I think it rightfully belongs to the jews no matter what people say. And as far as the origins of palestinians, they came from some island near sicily called philisines, they got there and coexisted with the Jews that had been there for quite a while. And also you win something you keep it, you don't see Canada and the US telling all white people going back to Europe and giving the land back to the natives. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
...and you are cracking lol :stongue:
you and Cyrus went to the same school of argumentative logic I see... |
Jews from Arab lands weren't kicked out, they were ENCOURAGED to move out, and not everywhere - some countries resisted for some time (example, Iraq). Well, then, they did it mostly on their own, and had provisions as to where they were going to settle. They had money, support, and a well-organized plan. Not for Palestinians. Unlike with Jewish flight, there was no such thing for Palestinians, becauses Arabs didnt agree to this "deal" (there was no deal!). So why blame Arab states for not agreeing for something they thought wasn't fair? So Israel, WITHIN ITS BORDERS, instead of accomodating Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs, just decided to kick them out - using force. And since the Palestinians had nowhere to go, they were forced to live in crowded refugee camps. And you forget to note that while 400,000-800,000 Jews moved from Arab lands to Israel, MANY MORE moved from Soviet Union, Europe, States - so they need more land so they conveniently decided to "clear out" the "garbage". Bravo, Israel.
Yes, I guess I am lacking argumentative logic, bwahahaha :rolleyes: |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Jews from Arab lands weren't kicked out, they were ENCOURAGED to move out, and not everywhere - some countries resisted for some time (example, Iraq). Well, then, they did it mostly on their own, and had provisions as to where they were going to settle. They had money, support, and a well-organized plan. Not for Palestinians. Unlike with Jewish flight, there was no such thing for Palestinians, becauses Arabs didnt agree to this "deal" (there was no deal!). So why blame Arab states for not agreeing for something they thought wasn't fair? So Israel, WITHIN ITS BORDERS, instead of accomodating Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs, just decided to kick them out - using force. And since the Palestinians had nowhere to go, they were forced to live in crowded refugee camps. And you forget to note that while 400,000-800,000 Jews moved from Arab lands to Israel, MANY MORE moved from Soviet Union, Europe, States - so they need more land so they conveniently decided to "clear out" the "garbage". Bravo, Israel.
Yes, I guess I am lacking argumentative logic, bwahahaha :rolleyes: |
Look you have a horrible misunderstanding of context and history.
And a great idea, "Why by golly we have all these new people? Where should we put them? I KNOW I KNOW! How about in the most densly populate place on earth?! Genius!" :rolleyes:
Palestinian Arabs were as equally "encouraged" to move from Israel during 1948 as Jews were in moving from Arab countries to Israel during 1948. Both Arab countries encouraged Palestinians to flee, and Israel encouraged Jews to flee. The difference is Israel kept its refugees in camps for 1-5 years, the Arabs kept them there for 60+ years (longest ever in world history some have said).
Palestinians that stayed in Israel in 1948 (there are a LOT, they number close to a million+ now) are known as Israeli Arab. They have their own political parties, hold seats in parliment, participate in government, and are entitled to all the same privileges as Jewish Israelis execept they aren't forced to enlist in the army for three years (some few however do choose to do this).
In 1967, Israel captured disputed territory that did not belong to any country, but was in the possession of Jordan and Egypt for 20 years. Most Palestinians during this war did not chose to flee and were encouraged to stay by their governments to inrease Israel's headaches.
Instead of annexing all the land and declaring it part of Israel in 1967, of which they could have easily done then; affording Palestinians Israeli citizenship and avoiding all this needless surffering and torment (I imagine had Israel annex the land, Palestinians would have enjoyed the same high living standards as Arab Israelis, and also their reduced birth rate and higher education levels, and peaceful nature). Instead, Israel decide to keep these lands in suspended animation where it would administer them until a long-lasting peace could be reached with its Arab neighbors.
Just as a note, you did not have these major checkpoints till the mid-1990s, after the begining of the peace process. Under Israeli administration, the territories were much more peaceful.
Immediately after the war, the vogue in the air was to exchange these lands for peace with Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, but this was not done since the Arabs refused (they would have been seen weak to do this). So instead of annexing the land then, they held on in hope and hope.... that the Arabs would liberate or take on their brethern, but they did not, instead they formented hate and breaded war. And we are where we are today.
And the reason I don't see peace in the near future is because the Palestinians are still not ready to accept peace. And I don't know when they will be as tazzjayz pointed out. If you gave them 99% percent of all there demands, in 2 years they would start a war with you over 1%, and if you gave them the 1%, they would want 101%, it doesn't end. They have such a large sense of self-entitlement, it would make the the western poor envious.
And that is why I believe if more people see the Palestinians as the wrong, as the primary force to blame for their own misery in the international world, it will quicken up the time it will take Palestinians to understand that yes their society is messed up, and they need to change it if they want things better, no one else will do this for them. An external war is not the answer to their internal problems. |
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