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Palestinian-Israeli Conflict Thread (pg. 13)
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| Q5echo |
| quote: | Originally posted by LazFX
and I apologize for taking this thread off topic. |
no, no that was my fault. you got me thinking of breastmilk&boobies then all heck broke loose.
sorry. as you were. |
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| Subey |
Shaolin Z,
Four questions for you :D
For simplicities sake (i.e. in order to make this question not one of evidence) let's assume that 100% of Israeli prime ministers have supported/put in place policies whose purpose has been to secure/acquire land at the expense and quality of life of Palestinians.
1)
If you had been an Israeli prime minister would you have been any different?
2)
Do you think that the Israeli people have a gene in their DNA spiral that is unique to them that results in these policies?
3)
If 23% of white males aged 25-45 living in county X, in year Y in the state Z of the good ol US of A were members of the KKK who had participated in a lynching. And you had been a white male aged 25-45 living in county X, in the year Y in the state of Z of the good ol US of A, Would you have participated in that lynching?
4)
In a Liverpool neighbourhood, 77% of the residents think the Wigan football club is "bollocks!". If you lived there, what would you think? |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: |
Israel kills Islamic Jihad man behind foiled bombing
By Wael al-Ahmad Wed Feb 21, 5:00 AM ET
JENIN, West Bank (Reuters) - Israeli undercover forces killed an Islamic Jihad commander on Wednesday, a day after a Palestinian suicide bomber he had sent to
Israel was apprehended near Tel Aviv.
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Witnesses said Israeli forces in civilian clothing sprayed Mahmoud Abu al-Jahim's car with bullets in the city of Jenin, a militant stronghold in the occupied
West Bank.
Islamic Jihad identified Jahim as its top commander in the northern West Bank and vowed to avenge what it called an Israeli assassination. An Israeli colonel who led the operation said his men had intended to arrest Jahim.
"He was carrying an M-16 (assault rifle) and fired in the air when he felt something suspicious going on. He then pointed his weapon at the forces and was shot dead," Colonel Hertzi Halevy told Reuters in a telephone interview.
Jahim was killed a day after Israeli police arrested a suspected Palestinian bomber and several accomplices hiding in an apartment near Tel Aviv. A police spokesman said they had planned to stage an attack in the city hours later.
"The targeted man was a senior Islamic Jihad man who recruited and sent the man apprehended with the explosive device near Tel Aviv on Tuesday night," an Israeli security source said after the Jenin shooting.
Abu Ahmed, spokesman of Islamic Jihad's armed wing, said Jahim "was directly responsible for sending a fighter from the group on the suicide mission."
"The assassination of our leaders will not stop us from continuing the path of Jihad and resistance and the response will be violent inside the depth of the Zionist entity," Abu Ahmed said.
WANTED
Halevy said Jahim had been on Israel's most-wanted list for the past two years.
"As a result of new information received, including from the man captured near Tel Aviv on Tuesday, we had details on his whereabouts," he said. "His vehicle was found to be loaded with explosive devices. It was left for Palestinian security forces to deal with."
Islamic Jihad last carried out a suicide attack in Israel on January 29, when three people were killed in the Red Sea resort of Eilat.
The group has rejected a Gaza ceasefire with Israel which the governing Islamist movement Hamas and other militant factions declared in November.
Islamic Jihad said at the time it wanted the truce to extend to the West Bank, where Israel has mounted frequent raids to detain or kill militants since the start of a Palestinian uprising in 2000.
(Additional reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza and Ori Lewis in Jerusalem)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070221...s_violence_dc_1
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A success story no?
Israel risked the lives of its soldiers to try and arrest a wanted terrorist. They got the right guy and no one innocent civilians were hurt or killed. No collateral damage, nothing. And now the world is with one less terrorist extremist.
Will I hear any praise when things go good?
Or do we only here complaints when things go wrong? |
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| shaolin_Z |
I'm pretty sure I know what the point of this excercise is, but it doesn't really serve any purpose to be honest. I'll try to play along anyways. There are way too many assumptions and hypotheticals here, most of them not specified, so I'll have to make my own assumptions. First of all, if I were the same type of person I am now, I'd never be a politician to begin with, especially in a state like Israel. I'd probably be a some far left socio-anarchist type. So I really don't see how any of this applies to me, but I'll try to answer your questions.
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
Shaolin Z,
Four questions for you :D
For simplicities sake (i.e. in order to make this question not one of evidence) let's assume that 100% of Israeli prime ministers have supported/put in place policies whose purpose has been to secure/acquire land at the expense and quality of life of Palestinians. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
1)
If you had been an Israeli prime minister would you have been any different? |
Well, given that assumption:
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
let's assume that 100% of Israeli prime ministers have supported/put in place policies whose purpose has been to secure/acquire land at the expense and quality of life of Palestinians. |
Does it over ride free will? If it does, you answered your own question.
Negating that assumption, and not considering the fact that I would never be in politics, that's becomes an awkward question to answer. Assuming I didn't believe that engaging in theft and unjustifiable acts of coersion is ok as long as I'm the one doing it, no I wouldln't go down the same path as my predecessors.
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
2)
Do you think that the Israeli people have a gene in their DNA spiral that is unique to them that results in these policies? |
No. But a fair number of them are quite racist towards Arabs, that's not a secret. And some of them even have a racial superiority complex when it come to any type of 'goyim,' including Western goyim.
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
3)
If 23% of white males aged 25-45 living in county X, in year Y in the state Z of the good ol US of A were members of the KKK who had participated in a lynching. And you had been a white male aged 25-45 living in county X, in the year Y in the state of Z of the good ol US of A, Would you have participated in that lynching? |
Then again, what are the given assumptions here? Am I the same type of person I am now? Assuming I am, no, I wouldn't participate in it. Hopefully I'd have the courage to stand up for the potential victim, rather than just stand around and let it happen right in front of me.
| quote: | Originally posted by Subey
4)
In a Liverpool neighbourhood, 77% of the residents think the Wigan football club is "bollocks!". If you lived there, what would you think? |
LOL, I'm not fond of sports so I suppose I wouldn't think anything. Assuming I did like sports, I'd evaluate the Wigan football club based on their performance and sportsmanship I suppose. 77% of the residents' opinions are irrelevant if they're very irrational or biased for other similar reasons.
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Now that I answered those, changing the hypothetical situations and different roles doesn't change right and wrong or what I consider moral or immoral. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
A success story no?
Israel risked the lives of its soldiers to try and arrest a wanted terrorist. They got the right guy and no one innocent civilians were hurt or killed. No collateral damage, nothing. And now the world is with one less terrorist extremist.
Will I hear any praise when things go good?
Or do we only here complaints when things go wrong? |
No. One isolated event doesn't even make a dent when there's a billion other examples of completely unethical and degenerate policies/actions. It certainly doesn't convince anyone of having turned over a new leaf or whatever type of approval you're seeking.
NOTE: I didn't even bother fully reading the article, since it's not required to answer your question. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
No. One isolated event doesn't even make a dent when there's a billion other examples of completely unethical and degenerate policies/actions. It certainly doesn't convince anyone of having turned over a new leaf or whatever type of approval you're seeking.
NOTE: I didn't even bother fully reading the article, since it's not required to answer your question. |
So this type of action should not be applauded and encouraged.
Great, let the cycle of violence continue. |
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| PETRAN |
| quote: |
Originally posted by shaolin_Z
No. But a fair number of them are quite racist towards Arabs, that's not a secret. And some of them even have a racial superiority complex when it come to any type of 'goyim,' including Western goyim. |
Yes thats right, they may not have racist genes but they have racist memes as lovely Dawkins would say. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
So this type of action should not be applauded and encouraged.
Great, let the cycle of violence continue. |
Applauded for what? Following protocols that don't violate international law and the Geneva conventions (assuming that what actually happened here ofcourse)? That's something that should be EXPECTED, not APPLAUDED.
And don't even go there, "let the cycle of violence continue." There would be no cycle of violence if it weren't for Zionist zealots in the first place. Nice way to obfuscate the root of the problem. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Applauded for what? Following protocols that don't violate international law and the Geneva conventions (assuming that what actually happened here ofcourse)? That's something that should be EXPECTED, not APPLAUDED.
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We'll lets put it this way, if you had the option, would you invite yourself into a densely hostile enemy population to try and capture a known terrorist and potentially face very heated resistance and very likely bodily death or injury in an attempt to save his life?
Or would you much rather send a bomb plane-delivered to do the job for you at a nice safe distance? |
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| Haunted |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
**group hug**
ok, now let me say something. Yes, the situation sucks in the middle east...and Yes, Israel has committed crimes against innocent people. But looking at it from their perspective, I can also see WHY they have been expanding their borders and taking a heavy-handed approach to security. They have been attacked repeatedly over the past century...several times by massive armies, and today by rockets, car bombs, and suicide bombers. The Israelis are surrounded ON ALL SIDES by Arab states that want to see them destroyed. The Palestinians just voted a huge number of Hezbollah members into power...and Hezbollah has made no qualms about their desire to eradicate all of the Jews. The arabs are using every tool at their disposal to murder and destroy everything the Jews have built in Israel, and *IF* these people had the ability to destroy Israel today, I really don't think they would hesitate! Hezbollah would drop the bomb in a heartbeat and feel little guilt over it.
Israel on the other hand HAS THE ABILITY...RIGHT NOW...to kill every Palestinian...to destroy every settlement and every city where their enemies are hiding. They could even wipe out major parts of entire countries (Iran, etc) that are making direct threats to them. Israel has 100-200 nukes in their arsenal, and they could erase all of their enemies tomorrow morning if they chose to...but of course they would never dream of it! This would be the ultimate sin in their eyes. Their God would NEVER forgive them for these horrible actions...but the twisted version of Islam we see in Palestine and nearby regions is ENCOURAGING violence and murder against non-believers...especially the Jews! So not only do the arabs think they are politically justified in murdering millions of Jews...but morally and spiritually justified as well!!!
This is what makes the big difference, and where we need to draw the line as a civilized people. Despite the abuses perpetrated by Israel, they are the lesser of two evils in this conflict, and they are showing restraint that their enemies would certainly not. They may have flaws, but Israel represents the best hope for freedom and progress in that area of the world today. If the Jews were to leave, we would have another Hamas/Hezbollah/Taliban-esque government take hold in the region...and if you truly care about human rights, you should realize how horrible this would be. |
very well said.
Israel has also repeatedly bent over backwards to try to have peace, but in return the arabs have spat in Israels face.
case closed. |
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| Dopey |
| quote: | Originally posted by tazzjayz
Which is the big picture, if these guys here in Canada have so much hate, how about the people there? They need a HUGE change, a social phenomenon, I dunno I can't think of anything that would let the palestian people to forgive and forget. |
I think a Palestinian leader must come about and preach peace. Preach life instead of death, preach children not ancestors. Don't see anything else working in all honesty. |
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| Subey |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Now that I answered those, changing the hypothetical situations and different roles doesn't change right and wrong or what I consider moral or immoral. |
You've chosen to approach the questions with an assumption that completely avoids the impact of how human nature is expressed in a cultural context. Which allows you to maintain your attitude because it doesn't address its fallacies.
This response isn't a problem for me, because the evidence of the validity of my point is recorded in everyone's life.
What does a human do if a human is an Israeli prime minister? It's not a hypothetical question. We have multiple examples of how humans respond to this.
What does a human do if a human is a Palestinian living in the West Bank? It's not a hypothetical question. We have multiple examples of how humans respond to this.
You want to frame a problem in the middle east as being sourced by being Israeli. How common is it for humans to muscle their neighbours? Did the Japanese launch a surprise attack against the Russians in 1904 because they were Zionists?
Even the most casual, and superficial examination of human history shows that Human Groups are Very Prone to treating other human groups poorly. And that the most common trait of scenarios where these kinds of abuses take place is when the separation between the two groups is emphasized rather than their unity as humans.
When you stand behind a bull horn and scream at the top of your lungs "Israeli Group Bad", what you are doing is "Emphasizing the separation".
By emphasizing the separation you are FOSTERING the circumstances that FOSTER the abuse. |
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