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oh my god (pg. 22)
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| Floorfiller |
this is a pretty interesting thread...i wish i had stuck with it the whole time because i'd really like to give some input, but don't really want to repeat or bring up things that have already been mentioned...
i guess my only question to the religious people in this thread would be this. thinking as far back in time as we can to imagine the beginnings of the first ideas of gods or religions....what would be the reasons for those to come about? can we all agree that its an inability to understand? if that is the case...and then thinking of a logical progression from that moment in time to the birth of any pagan religion or christianity or judaism....why is it any different from the caveman who sees lightning and doesn't understand or know what it is? and that's why i guess i don't really have any religious beliefs...it just all seems so created out of nothing. so someone somewhere says they had an experience with the divine...unless you've had that experience yourself...how can you put faith in it? |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by NiteMer
That's a terrible argument, being that you are a Christian. The Bible clearly states that it is God's word. He will not interfere with free will, but he certainly would inspire the word in the way he wanted it to be. The writing of the bible doesn't contradict free will in any way. |
I agree that God directed the bible to be writen a certain way but that does not necessitate that what we have before us today is identical to what God inspired. If someone choose to alter the bible that would be an act of their free will. God will not interfere. |
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| NiteMer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I don't want to sway you from your beliefs, however, I want you to understand that there is a possibility that what is writen in English in front of you may not be the same as what was writen by the prophet thousands of years ago. Even the Roman Catholic church recognizes that errors have been made.
FYI, most of the books of the bible were writen in Arimeic not Hebrew. |
Aramaic, ah yes. My bad on that. He studied all the biblical languages, so I think that's more semantics than anything. Only the pentateuch was in Hebrew, right?
Firstly, I don't align myself with the Roman Catholic Church, so their assertions don't really matter to me, but I will take them into consideration. Copies of the original documentation do exist, per the Dead Sea Scrolls and they have been analyzed extensively before translation. In my mind, God would make sure that translations were accurate, and I don't believe devout believers would mistranslate/miscopy these documents. |
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| NiteMer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
No, what I'm saying is that the big bang theory is sound in that it conforms to all the laws of physics. If you can disprove it through physics then you have made an error in reasoning because disproving the theory will also disprove the law you used to being with. |
In that case, I can assert that one of the two may be wrong. It seems that they are mutually exclusive. |
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| trunks1022 |
| quote: | Originally posted by *InVeRs3*
Of course, not all Christians are blind or close minded.
And what's so stupid about religion? Is it bad to promote peace?
And no. Religions don't start wars. Stupid people and propoganda do. |
crusades...
jihad
wars fought in the name of religion are stupid |
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| Floorfiller |
| quote: | Originally posted by trunks1022
crusades...
jihad
wars fought in the name of religion are stupid |
i won't speak for jihad's because well...i don't know enough to make intelligent statements about the large amount of jihads that have happened...but i would have to say that the crusades were launched for political reasons and religion was the excuse for the action... |
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| NiteMer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
i won't speak for jihad's because well...i don't know enough to make intelligent statements about the large amount of jihads that have happened...but i would have to say that the crusades were launched for political reasons and religion was the excuse for the action... |
I'm not very versed in the Koran either, but Jihad is definitely a principle therein. However, this could be a misinterpreted, just like the Bible was during the Crusades. |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | | I don't want to sway you from your beliefs, however, I want you to understand that there is a possibility that what is writen in English in front of you may not be the same as what was writen by the prophet thousands of years ago. Even the Roman Catholic church recognizes that errors have been made. |
1 Corinth 2:4... "And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."
:)
| quote: | | i guess my only question to the religious people in this thread would be this. thinking as far back in time as we can to imagine the beginnings of the first ideas of gods or religions....what would be the reasons for those to come about? can we all agree that its an inability to understand? if that is the case...and then thinking of a logical progression from that moment in time to the birth of any pagan religion or christianity or judaism....why is it any different from the caveman who sees lightning and doesn't understand or know what it is? and that's why i guess i don't really have any religious beliefs...it just all seems so created out of nothing. so someone somewhere says they had an experience with the divine...unless you've had that experience yourself...how can you put faith in it? |
we have faith in god because we can FEEL his presents. you see god is like the wind,you cant see him or smell him but you can feel him touch you and see his influance like when he russles the leaves on trees. ppl have ALWAYS known god was there because the first ppl lived in a garden with him and could see him russeling the leaves on trees :) |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by NiteMer
Aramaic, ah yes. My bad on that. He studied all the biblical languages, so I think that's more semantics than anything. Only the pentateuch was in Hebrew, right?
Firstly, I don't align myself with the Roman Catholic Church, so their assertions don't really matter to me, but I will take them into consideration. Copies of the original documentation do exist, per the Dead Sea Scrolls and they have been analyzed extensively before translation. In my mind, God would make sure that translations were accurate, and I don't believe devout believers would mistranslate/miscopy these documents. |
I cannot say for sure what books were writen in what languages. All four of the Gospels were origionally written in Greek. Most of the Old testimate was in Aramaic (thanks for the spelling correction) but I cannot which were in which language.
When discussing the bible you have to take the Roman Catholic Church as the ultimate authority because all Christian bibles (even the orthodoxed) are writen based on books held as property of the Vatican. Granted the Vatican does allow some people from outside their organization to look at them from time to time but they have never released any of them to outside scrutiny.
As per the dead sea scrolls, you must remember that none of them are accepted as being part of the bible or written by god, however, that may change in time. Additionally, the Vatican owns most of these (which is a bothersome thing as they refuse to release them) and have only allowed parts to be translated. What I find most interesting about the dead sea scrolls is the rumour that there are two that are writen by a man named jesus that have been carbon dated to the same period as Jesus, however, our good friends at the Vatican are staying tight lipped. I cannot confirm that to be true and I have not examined the validity of the claim but I would not discount it all together. I guess my position on the dead sea scrolls is that other then the ones owned by Isreal and released to the general public we know nothing about them. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
God does not interfere with free will. God wants us to choose to love him, therefore he gave us free will. If God interferes with that then he has circomvented our entire reason for being created. I would direct you to C.S. Lewis' The Four Loves for a more indepth exploration of this. Anyway, man could have made errors and or purposly altered the bible and God would not stop them because as it would go against free will, this is the same reason why God did not prevent Eve from eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
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And God intended for what the apostles wrote in their passages and genesis. It's all over the bible:
Genesis 1.11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
Genesis 1.26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Exodus 20.11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Psalm 33.6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.
Jeremiah 10.12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
Matthew 19.4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?"
Luke 3.23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph...36 the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech...38 the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Luke 17.26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all."
1 Corinthians 15.21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth
1 Timothy 2.13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
Hebrews 11.3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
If God allowed man to so screw up teh bible than why would you believe in anything of the bible. No, God inspired how he created the earth all thruout the bible cuz its true. Nobody changed it, it was already there!
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Agreed, the Vedics were writen by men at the direction of God.
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I dunno what this verdicts thing is but it wasn't written by God and Jesus. Only the bible was.
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While you are correct that Hitler did not support organized religion and he was not a christian that does not mean he denied the existance of god, he simply saw god differently then christians. An athiest believes in no god, Hitler believed in a god just not Yahweh. |
There is only one God, so to not believe in him is to be pretty much an atheist. Plus atheists believe in witches and stuff. No difference. He was essentially an atheist because he only belived in himself and evolution. |
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| Mebot |
| quote: | Originally posted by Floorfiller
i guess my only question to the religious people in this thread would be this. thinking as far back in time as we can to imagine the beginnings of the first ideas of gods or religions....what would be the reasons for those to come about? |
I would think it would be natural calamities and/or occurances that people couldn't understand so they alligned it with a higher deity.
Why did my crops die? the god of water is angry
why did my first born son die? god is angry
who should i give thanks for my bountiful crop? let's give thanks to crop god.
etc...
I think that it just escalated or diversified from there. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
If God allowed man to so screw up teh bible than why would you believe in anything of the bible. No, God inspired how he created the earth all thruout the bible cuz its true. Nobody changed it, it was already there!
I dunno what this verdicts thing is but it wasn't written by God and Jesus. Only the bible was.
There is only one God, so to not believe in him is to be pretty much an atheist. Plus atheists believe in witches and stuff. No difference. He was essentially an atheist because he only belived in himself and evolution. |
I believe the parts of the bible that are coroborated by the historical record and my understanding of God.
Like I said earlier, to believe that what exists today is exactly what was revealed by God shows a total lack of critical thought. Even the most devout priests and ministers would not argue that.
The Vedicts are the earliest in a series of holy texts that make up the basis for the Hindu religion.... they predate the old testimate by approximately 1500 years. Hindus would contend that God inspired man to write the Vedics just the same as Christians say God inspired man to write the bible. Unless you know what is writen in the Vedics you cannot dismiss them as not being the word of God. I have studied them and I accept them as being the word of God and the same God that inspired the bible. Different words, same God because revealing himself to different people required different stories.
An athiest believes there is no god, gods, higher power, spiritual force, etc. Believe in any god/higher power means that one is not an athiest. Therefore while Hitler was not a christian (despite his Lutheran batism) he was also not an athiest. |
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