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Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War? (pg. 37)
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by epsilon1
I doubt that, since age 0 they're educated to be against Israel. |
the same applies to us quite as well as shown by most of the israelis that posted here, and if not on the educational level, then definitely on the social level. |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
Does your Super IDF Kippah protect your head from the bombs then??? |
Actually, I have the exact coordinates in Canada that need to be bombed during your hours there:
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
the same applies to us quite as well as shown by most of the israelis that posted here, and if not on the educational level, then definitely on the social level. |
Yeah, surrender more territories, why not? People like you make me ashamed to be of the same faith and roots as you. You're a pathetic weakling and disgrace. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Yeah, surrender more territories, why not? People like you make me ashamed to be of the same faith and roots as you. You're a pathetic weakling and disgrace. |
it's nice to put words into other people's mouths. |
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| Psy-T |
| you're either with us, or against us, right? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but its not. the only way the root cause is relevant is if the root cause can be attended to. root cause = creation of israel. root answer therefore = destruction of israel. now we know thats not going to be the answer, so to point fingers back 60 years is irrelevant in today's modern context. |
No ethical solution can be found WITHOUT addressing the legitimate grievances of the Palestinians, it's that simple. The Palestinians, the indigenous people, are the ones who got militarily occupied and ethnically cleansed, not the other way around. But I guess I can see why that's something that would be easy for the West to ignore. America, South Africa, & Australlia are perfect examples of the same unjust brutal practice. The only difference is that this is HAPPENING RIGHTNOW AND IT'S NOT TO LATE TO REVERSE IT! Ofcourse, I don't expect that to happen. I don't expect states and policy makers to rise to an even elementary level of morality, especially considering that was the plan from the beggining. Get rid of the Arabs and take the land by force. So you can see how there's no end to this conflict until that objective is met.
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Ben-Gurion eloquently articulated the fundamental goals of Zionism to Auni Abdul Hadi, a prominent Palestinian politician before 1948, as the following:
"Our ultimate goal is the independence of the Jewish people in Palestine, on both sides of the Jordan, not as a minority but as a community of several million. In my opinion, it is possible to create over a period of forty years, if Transjordan was included, a community of four million Jews in addition to an Arab community of two million." (Israel: A History, p. 74)
As immigration of European Jewry to Palestine increased between 1931-1935 (which doubled Palestine's Jewish population), Chancellor Judah Leon Magnes (the president of the Hebrew University who favored a bi-national state where Palestinians and Jews live with equal rights) asked Ben-Gurion to make concessions to Palestinians over Jewish immigration by 1935, Ben-Gurion explicitly told Magnes this:
"The difference between me and you is that you are ready to sacrifice immigration for peace, while I am not, though peace is dear to me. And even if I was prepared to make concessions, the Jews of Poland and Germany would not be, because they have no other option. For them immigration comes before peace." Ben-Gurion left no doubt that he identified, heart and soul, with this ordering of priorities." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 159)
Soon after the outbreak of the first Intifada in 1936, Ben-Gurion articulated the Palestinians fears when he wrote:
"The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Palestinians] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn't matter whether or not their view is correct.... They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale .... they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ..... [Arabs are] fighting dispossession ... The fear is not of losing land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ..... By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement." (Righteous Victims, p. 136)
From the beginning, Zionists advocated a "Jewish State" not just in Palestine, but also in Jordan, southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights as well. In 1918 Ben-Gurion described the future "Jewish state's" frontiers in details as follows:
"to the north, the Litani river [in southern Lebanon], to the northeast, the Wadi 'Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into Sinai at least up to Wadi al-'Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan" (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 87)
Yosef Weitz did not only advocate "transferring" the Palestinian people so the "Jewish state" would become a "Jewish majority", he also envisioned the "transfer" as a useful tool that could dispossess them from their lands. He stated in a meeting with the Transfer Committee on November 15, 1937:
"...the transfer of [Palestinian] Arab population from the area of the Jewish state does not serve only one aim--to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second, no less important, aim which is to advocate land presently held and cultivated by the [Palestinian] Arabs and thus to release it for Jewish inhabitants." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 94-95)
Weitz was obsessed with "transferring" the Palestinian people to neighboring Arab countries in a way that consumed all his thoughts. He wrote in his diary on December 20, 1940:
"it must be clear that there is no room in the country for both [Arab and Jewish] peoples . . . If the [Palestinian] Arabs leave it, the country will become wide and spacious for us . . . The only solution [after the end of WW II] is a Land of Israel, at least a western land of Israel [i.e. Palestine since Transjordan is the eastern portion], without [Palestinian] Arabs. There is no room here for compromises . . . There is no way but to transfer the [Palestinian] Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them, save perhaps for [the Palestinian Arabs of] Bethlehem, Nazareth, and the old Jerusalem. Not one village must be left, not one [Bedouin] tribe. The transfer must be directed at Iraq, Syria, and even Transjordan [eastern portion of Eretz Yisrael]. For this goal funds will be found . . . An only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb millions of our brothers and the Jewish problem will cease to exist. There is no other solution." (Benny Morris, p. 27 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, 131-132)
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I could spend all day quoting various Zionists (regarding their agenda of creating a state by disposing the indigenous population, well before Israel was even created), although I really don't feel the need to. Hopefully you get the point.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
as opposed to the palestinian groups that send young men off to market strapped with explosives? |
^^ What does that have to do with what I said earlier?
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
so, what youre saying is that if a wrong occurs then no matter how that wrong is punished and how many times, its still ok because those that started the 'fight' deserve it? therefore the citizens of nagasaki & hiroshima or dresden deserved what they got? it would be ok for native americans or aboriginal australians to go round blowing civilians to pieces? |
Perhaps you concluded that, but that not exactly what I said. First of all (the old cliche, which is nevertheless true), two wrongs don't make a right. So that initial "wrong" (injustice) hasn't been rectified or "punished."
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
im not debating that the creation of israel and their conduct since hasnt been the root cause of many of the problems, but israel is there now. its not going anywhere. to think differently just isnt realistic. and this is what the militants have got to understand. yes, of course the palestinians have rights (in my eyes) but those rights do not include kidnapping israeli soldiers. |
Given the modus operandi and reputation of the IDF, I don't really give two s about (the vast majority of) them. They're far worse, if not as bad as Palestinians terrorists. Their imposonment won't make me loose any sleep, nor will it evoke sympathy. And it's not like there aren't a disproportionatly larger number of Palestian prisoners, alot of who's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time (or having a blood relation to the wrong person). YOU DON'T IN' GO TO WAR OVER STUPID LIKE THAT! There are plenty of other altenatives (which I don't really expect Israel to consider, since they have a track record of aggression, disregard for international law, coersion, and expansion). And it certainly doesn't require bombing civilian and destroying the nations infrastructure (yes, I know you don't agree with that eigther, so please don't assume that I assume you do).
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
again, you havent countered my statement re: is this the reward israel gets for making territory concessions? |
There a pretty in simple answer to that. IT's NOT THEIR IN' TERRIOTORY! (and to be honest, I'm not even sure what you're specifically referring to here)
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
oh, and have you read anything else ive posted in this thread? ive condemned several actions by israel, so dont lay that bull at my feet. i am impartial, in that i criticise both sides. |
I'm well aware of that. I never accused you of ignoring the crimes of the state of Israel. What I was saying was, given the nature and origin of the conflict, there isn't a whole lot of room for "impartiality." "You can't be nuetral on a moving train." -Howard Zinn
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
but yes on this occasion the impetus for violence isnt israel, though i certainly think theyre taking things too far.
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That's not exactly correct. Media coverage on this issue (Israel-Palestine) is far from being accurate, objective, or non-biased, and you know that just as well as I do. I remember reading something earlier (specific to the current state of affairs) and it was clear that you couldn't really point fingers soley at any one entity. I'm not going to bother posting any links or anything, atleast for now, since I'm really only responding to your last response. Plus, (check out my last post in the PDDCOR) I don't have the energy or the patience to delve into this issue in great detail at this moment. |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
it's nice to put words into other people's mouths. |
Wouldn't know anything about that - there was hardly any double meaning in your post. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
There a pretty in simple answer to that. IT's NOT THEIR IN' TERRIOTORY! (and to be honest, I'm not even sure what you're specifically referring to here) |
for all (practical) intents and purposes, i think it's pretty safe to say that it is :conf: |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Wouldn't know anything about that - there was hardly any double meaning in your post. |
there was hardly a word in it regarding what we should do with the territories, in fact there wasn't even a hint towards it. just some run of the mill social commentary: the guy said those kids are brought up to hate us? i said the same applies to us, we're brought up to hate them, to the same extent. |
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| ronk |
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
what you still dont understand and i beg you to try is that its HEZBOLLAH that attacked israel not lebanon. its not the lebanese people or governments fault for the attack. israel is attacking a third party that is unfortunately stuck in the middle of this conflict. thats why the attack is a disgrace. |
I'm quite sure that..let's not say all, but most, Israeli people do understand (including myself) that Hezbollah attacked Israel and abducted the soldiers, NOT Lebanon. my question is: what would you do, if you were in Israel's position? |
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| emc^2 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
there was hardly a word in it regarding what we should do with the territories, in fact there wasn't even a hint towards it. just some run of the mill social commentary: the guy said those kids are brought up to hate us? i said the same applies to us, we're brought up to hate them, to the same extent. |
Not counting the precedents? I clearly remember number of your posts, in which you are quite clear in your leftist views.
Those who would sacrifice freedom for temporary security deserve neither.
- Benjamin Franklin |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by emc^2
Not counting the precedents? I clearly remember number of your posts, in which you are quite clear in your leftist views. |
i just went through the whole thread looking for those, couldn't find anything relavant 
in regards to having irrelavant leftist views, please refer to what i said a few posts back, and please note the sarcasm:
| quote: | | you're either with us, or against us, right? |
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