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Breaking News: Isreal and Lebanon at War? (pg. 54)
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| skot_e |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
:eyes: |
Am I missing something here? |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Dear World:
I understand that you are upset by us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry. (Outraged?)
Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset by us. Today, it is the "brutal repression of the Palestinians"; yesterday it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War and the Sinai campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily.
Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we the Jewish people -- upset you.
We upset a German people who elected Hitler and upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations - Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians and Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset.
We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us.
For centuries, we upset a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through inquisitions, and we upset the archenemy of the church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit.
And it is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you in a manner of speaking and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you and disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you (and thus love you)- and have you love us and so, we decided to come home - home to the same land we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset.
Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please.
Having left you and your pogroms and inquisitions and crusades and holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state, we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East.
Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The "radical" Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset.
Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel.
In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.
Dear world, why did the Arabs - the Palestinians - massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots between 1936-39? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967?
And when you, dear world, proposed a UN Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that "upset" caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of "upset" then?
The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories they now demand be given to them for their state , attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "itbach-al-yahud" (Massacre the Jew!) that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream -- destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today, but we should not "repress" them.
Dear world, you stood by during the holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres.
You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction.
And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians dream daily of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well think of how many times in the past you bothered us.
In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less. |
"Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes." - Harry S Truman |
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| psychosomatica |
| quote: | Originally posted by dennis
Proof please |
jeeezz... 2 second google search.. there are a lot more out there...
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/05/10/isrlpa3914.htm
edit: this is the site i originally came across
http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Timeline_of_Events.asp |
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| tathi |
also i would like to thank Yoepus and Epicurus for raising the quality of this thread :)
| quote: | Originally posted by skot_e
Am I missing something here? |
the father of modern philosophy: "god is dead!" |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by psychosomatica
This is what I was unable to convey earlier in the thread in my discussions with firestarter. What Yoepus said is all I wanted to hear. I don't believe it is possible to take that statement out of context, but I suggest others read the entire paragraph if they haven't yet.
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Sorry, I'll convey better :( ;) |
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| Abhay |
There are many formats of war, and they vary accross culture to culture from history to history.
For example, you have the standard western approach, of army's and battles etc. etc.
Then you had the ancient chinese approach of ambush, and stealth.
I'm probably wrong, but from my knowledge, sniping started in India.
And you also have a format known as "terrorism" which invovles mostly subterfuge, sabotage, kidnappings, and demands etc.
I find it stupid when people say that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to do war. Terrorism is just one way of fighting a war when a bunch of people who are very strong in their beliefs can't get many tanks, planes, and battleships to fight an army. I don't think it's "wrong" but i don't think it's right.
Nor do i think it's necessarily "wrong" because it's often targetting civilian people. The reality as i see it is that all wars hurt innocent civilians. I think terrorism just does it more directly, and without any regret of it. Even conventional and socially "acceptable" forms of warfare mightn't target civilians, but inevitebly it does hurt a country's economy and infrastructure. Even if a nation never get's one bomb or explosion on it's own land, it is certainly diverting economic resources away from the life style of it's peoples.
It's very easy to say that terrorists are mad angry evil-doers or something. That makes it easier for us to dehumanise these people and justify whatever actions we put in place to stop them. The reality as i see it, however, is that there's a lot of people who can sympathise with terrorists, and can find a real cause for support and joining up. That doesn't make them mad or crazy or angry or evil-doers. These people who are likely to join up in terrorist groups are the ones we need to target and i think ask ourselves: why do they do it?
The way i see it, is that you can't continue to figh terrorism via the current conventional format of war. There has to be brainstorming, and a divesion of resources away from the conventional military to one that fights terrorism (such as investing heavily in INtellgence Agencies). |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
the father of modern philosophy |
That would be Descartes, actually :p |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
about your third article, first off - this isn't a religious war |
As far as you can tell so far. There' no denying that any new conflicts will have religious overtones. But let's ignore the possibility of Israeli infiltration of Hizbullah.
| quote: | | , as for the rest of it, refer to Shakka's first article in this page as a response. |
Woe is Israel. Let's forget about the millions of other people that have been terrorised or killed by their governments or their neighbors in one form or another.
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p.s. which religions don't advocate peaceloving to the same extent? which religion's adherents follow it completely? |
All religions teach, preach or condone tolerance or acceptance of the stranger. It's those that are in power that convince people that what they are doing otherwise is in the service of their god.
But I am a goy, wtf do I know. |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
As far as you can tell so far. There' no denying that any new conflicts will have religious overtones. But let's ignore the possibility of Israeli infiltration of Hizbullah. |
you must be working with quite a wide definition for religious wars then, overtones of anything exist in mostly everything. this war is neither against a certain religion nor fueled by a certain religion.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Woe is Israel. Let's forget about the millions of other people that have been terrorised or killed by their governments or their neighbors in one form or another. |
somehow i doubt israel has managed to terrorize millions of people in it's 50something years of existence.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
All religions teach, preach or condone tolerance or acceptance of the stranger. It's those that are in power that convince people that what they are doing otherwise is in the service of their god. |
is this supposed to somehow contradict my point?
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
But I am a goy, wtf do I know. |
wow, good for you, so am i. |
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| tathi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
That would be Descartes, actually :p |
too good for me sensei :p |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
wow, good for you, so am i. |
wtf, ur not Jewish? |
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