Originally posted by Shakka
You really think this is about racism? Jesus, that is shallow.
I disagree with the racism charges as well, but I'm still struggling to figure out what this is about.
If it's about national security, I'd still love to hear how you justify the Palin pick as anything more than identity politics. If it's about taxes, Smitty raises a good point. If it's about foreign policy, how do you reconcile the fact that President Bush is now coming around to the same stances on Iraq and Pakistan that Obama advocated last July? If it's about the national deficit, you can't be a fan of continued war and aggression abroad - those costs, as we've seen, go straight to the deficit. Is it about education? McCain wants to abolish the Department of Education, and his education plan consists of allowing those that can afford it to take their children out of public schools and pay for private ones. Perhaps that is something you advocate, but I'd love to hear what you suggest we do about the people who can't afford it. Is it about energy independence? Neither plan is actually feasible in that sense, but at least Obama is willing to look past "drill baby drill". Is it about science? Palin doesn't really believe in any of that. Is it about the economy? Obama and the Bush Administration see fairly eye to eye on the Fanny and Freddie takeover. Is it about government reform? Obama co-wrote and passed an ethics reform bill and Palin lies about her record. McCain has switched positions on most of his mavericky past - against his own immigration bill, against his own campaign finance reform bill, etc. - and he's certainly not running a campaign any different from that Bush ran in 2000.
The "executive experience" card is so shallow - you've yet to indicate a single thing that Palin achieved as Governor as she accumulated this helpful experience, and by playing the executive card you more or less say that McCain, who has been in Congress his whole professional life as well, has no experience either!
I don't care about Obama for now. We're in the McCain-Palin thread after all. But is there a single reason worth supporting this ticket that doesn't have to do with Obama or Biden? Why put Palin on this ticket if it isn't just a cynical ploy at firing up the ol' cultural wars of the eighties and early nineties? Is she capable of being President?
Or is this really a "trust" thing?
Maybe Rick Davis was right. Maybe conservatives really don't vote on issues - they vote on the narratives that the campaigns are successful at creating.
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by Shakka
We've established in several threads that "Left" in the U.S. and "Left" in your traditionally defined sense are quite different. No need to bring it up again.
no, we talked about the incorrect use of the word 'liberalism' by americans.
'left' means the same thing across the globe.
Shakka
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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
I disagree with the racism charges as well, but I'm still struggling to figure out what this is about.
If it's about national security, I'd still love to hear how you justify the Palin pick as anything more than identity politics. If it's about taxes, Smitty raises a good point. If it's about foreign policy, how do you reconcile the fact that President Bush is now coming around to the same stances on Iraq and Pakistan that Obama advocated last July?
I said I was comfortable with McCain on national security and foreign policy. I've admitted it could be a Palin weakness, but I'd like to believe she can get some good tutelage as the race picks up. It's a concern and a risk, two things I deal with regularly at my job and have to acknowledge and decide whether to accept them or avoid them. Obama clearly has a deep bench of knowledge of global leaders and issues, but I'm not convinced that he's so far and above McCain or Palin when it comes to being able to make rational decisions based on geopolitical concerns. Advisers and intelligence play a far greater role in these decisions than just a President's general understanding of the landscape.
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If it's about the national deficit, you can't be a fan of continued war and aggression abroad - those costs, as we've seen, go straight to the deficit.
I agree. War is massively inflationary and is not desirable. But I am not a fan of quitting. We are already there, it is no longer up for debate as to whether or not we should be in Iraq--that is reality. We need to focus on completing the mission successfully and cleaning up a mess. I don't believe McCain plans to stay there forever, though that seems to be an allegation of the democrats. I think that Obama has wavered on issues of diplomacy and who and how he will negotiate, with or without preconditions, etc. His inconsistency on this issue does concern me.
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Is it about education? McCain wants to abolish the Department of Education, and his education plan consists of allowing those that can afford it to take their children out of public schools and pay for private ones. Perhaps that is something you advocate, but I'd love to hear what you suggest we do about the people who can't afford it.
I have little respect for government education, but it is something that is a public good that needs to be improved. Georgia has one of the worst public school systems in the nation. I'm all for choice. As I understand it, McCain also wants to better incentivize public school teachers that improve testing abilities. While I'm not completely convinced that it's a cut & dry issue that will be a clear solution, and I no doubt think there will be opposition because inferior teachers that fear they will end up with inferior compensation that they will say is due to no fault of their own...
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Is it about energy independence? Neither plan is actually feasible in that sense, but at least Obama is willing to look past "drill baby drill".
Obama has flipped on this issue and to be honest, I'm not exactly sure where he actually stands on it today. I like some of the plans being offered up by Newt Gingrich, Boone Pickens, Aubrey McClendon and others that recognize that alternative, renewable energy is a must-have in the longer term, but that we must do all we can in the intermediate term to bridge the gap because we can't build the infrastructure and implement a new energy source overnight. I think both candidates are coming to terms with this and I think that no matter who gets elected, a greater focus on renewables and alternatives is inevitable. This is not really a make or break issue for me.
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Is it about science?
Not for me.
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economy? Obama and the Bush Administration see fairly eye to eye on the Fanny and Freddie takeover.
I definitely have economic concerns and I think the Bush administration has done a horrible job with the hand they were dealt. This will be probably the biggest challenge for the next administration, but at the same time, I believe more government intervention tends to worsen, not improve economic problems and that the Federal Reserve and the Treasury ultimately have a greater impact on things like credit and creating a positive environment for business. I also believe in the business cycle and that there is only so much that can be done to jump-start things or get strong economic growth if there are impediments that must first be cleansed in order to move forward. I think that any administration is going to inherit a economy that will largely be out of their control to really do much about barring 1) Significant deleveraging of financial institutions, 2) a stabilization in housing prices, 3)a reduction of housing inventories, 4) a significant deleveraging of the consumer balance sheet.
Edit: I am also not enthused by what I see from Obama vs. McCain from a tax philosophy standpoint. Obama strikes me as more concerned with income distribution vs. overall tax structure. Balancing the budget is a real concern and a real goal that everyone needs to address. On the O'Reilly interview, O'Reilly questions him in that under Bush, federal revenues increased despite a tax cut, but Obama is more concerned with making sure the rich pay more and hopes/assumes that will have the same impact, despite that it is unproven. This concerns me. I don't like the "soak the rich, they can afford it so therefore they must pay for it" mentality.
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Is it about government reform?
Sure, to an extent. I think reform is inevitable no matter who is in charge.
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The "executive experience" card is so shallow - you've yet to indicate a single thing that Palin achieved as Governor as she accumulated this helpful experience, and by playing the executive card you more or less say that McCain, who has been in Congress his whole professional life as well, has no experience either!
Touche somewhat I guess. By that logic, not a single one of the candidates for POTUS or VPOTUS has any executive experience except Palin! To her credit, she has balanced a budget and generated a budget surplus, she has made executive decisions, not just legislative decisions, which are completely different things, she has managed a large family at the same time which I don't view as an easy challenge. I suppose I may have overplayed/overhyped her experience to some degree, but moreso because it is in defense of those who diminish her position because she governs such a small populace or is a woman. I obviously think her experience as governor counts just a little more than you do towards being able to make executive decisions.
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I don't care about Obama for now. We're in the McCain-Palin thread after all. But is there a single reason worth supporting this ticket that doesn't have to do with Obama or Biden?
1) They're not Obama/Biden
2) They're more likely to support conservative philosophy vs. (American) liberal philosophy
3) I am fearful of congressional and executive branches both being dominated by the same party and the reckless potential it creates. We saw how the Bush administration ed up in this situation and I have little reason to believe it would be different under a democratic controlled congress/POTUS. Politicians are politicians.
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Why put Palin on this ticket if it isn't just a cynical ploy at firing up the ol' cultural wars of the eighties and early nineties? Is she capable of being President?
I can see this to some degree. I was hoping for Romney personally. However, don't you think that there was an army of attack dogs with mountains of mud at the ready had McCain gone with an obvious pick like Romney, Pawlenty or whomever else was perceived to be on the short-list? Like I said, Palin is a risk for sure, a curve ball not many were expecting. She has shaken this race up and really made things interesting.
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Or is this really a "trust" thing?
To a large degree it is. I am not alone in this either. I am aware of several staunch democrats who also share the same concern. It is not because Obama is an African-American.
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Maybe Rick Davis was right. Maybe conservatives really don't vote on issues - they vote on the narratives that the campaigns are successful at creating.
That's kind of a generalization that could be used to characterize many people on either side of any aisle.
I do think both sets of candidates possess plenty of positive attributes. It's not as black & white for me as you might believe or as I might've conveyed. However, this is where I stand as of 9:09AM on 9/11/2008...
Shakka
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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
no, we talked about the incorrect use of the word 'liberalism' by americans.
'left' means the same thing across the globe.
Then where else did I say "left" vs. "liberal" that you took issue? Why is this even an issue? Let's clear the record--what is "Left" as you understand it and I'll tell you what "Left" is as I understand it. When I hear terms like "The Left," it is in reference to democrats, American liberals/progressives (supportive of things like a more progressive tax code, socialized healthcare, gay rights, income redistribution, etc.)
I mean.... he does have a point... and its the truth..
sorry, I would of been happy with Kay Bailey, but the gop sold out for looks and charms...
Kind of like "Mrs. Palin goes to Whashigton" she represents the "everyman" for the masses. Obama had that too, but now the GOP brought in eye candy that for the life of I can't grasp why the GOP is cumming for it so hard.
and since she is not doing interviews or going out on her own..... will we ever know from her own mouth about her views on the issues?
Until she does a few on her own, interviews, his view point above will remain valid.
Lebezniatnikov
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Originally posted by Shakka
I do think both sets of candidates possess plenty of positive attributes. It's not as black & white for me as you might believe or as I might've conveyed. However, this is where I stand as of 9:09AM on 9/11/2008...
That was a very cogent and comprehensive post, and finally illuminates for me where some of McCain's support emanates from. I only wish that this is what was in the national limelight as well, instead of allegations of putting lipstick on pigs and moose and such.
I'm at work at the moment, but I'll jot down my thoughts tonight.
But thank you.
josh4
Ooooohhhh so that's what a real interview on the issues that matter is like!
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Capitalizt
Aside from Mccain's incoherence and stupid ideas, I CAN'T STAND that fake forced smile he gives in these interviews.. It's so obvious that he has been coached. He's a bitter old man in reality and has always looked pissed in public interviews in the past, but now forces that ugly smile out every time he has a discussion..no matter how serious the topic.
Clovis
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Originally posted by josh4
Ooooohhhh so that's what a real interview on the issues that matter is like!
Nice post Josh.
That interview is amazing. Any American with half a brain should be deeply concerned by what it tells us...
DJ Shibby
"You have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on — reform of this country and victory in the war. You can't blink. So I didn't blink then even when asked to run as his running mate," she said.
The mission from Gawd!
Clovis
Anyone who seriously believes the diatribe coming out of that insane woman's mouth is ed in the head.
