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The NO on Prop 8 thread.... (pg. 15)
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| djjoshuaallen |
| quote: | Originally posted by R!CH
the discrimination towards religious zealots seen here is more of a cultural backlash stemming from their own incessant determination at projecting religious morality upon our free and secular society. have you ever heard a biblethumper form an argument without leaning on god's will and that sensational piece of fiction known as the bible? |
well surpisingly i would have to disagree r!ch. Although institutions are to be seperated, beliefs are not, and have not since our founding fathers created this nation. Just look at the dollar bill in your pocket, or rehearse the pledge of allegiance. The belief in god has had a huge roll in the fabric of our country, and even the creation of it.
This proposition aside, its my belief that the authors of the consitution intended for god to play a role in the direction of this country from day one. Most major political figures have publicly displayed the role of church and god in their life. Including your buds Barack Obama & Joe Biden, who do not support homosexual marriage but rather civil unions. These political figures will fight to uphold the influence of god in the day to day lives of americans, and they have that right IMO |
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| selfEvolution |
Relgion and the Constitution:
*All* of what has been written about Jesus began nearly a century after his death. Such writings have in turn been rewritten and edited many times. Our modern newspapers can't get our news 100% correct from 10 days ago, much less nearly a hundred years ago. Writers that lived during Jesus' time (Apollonius, Ptolemy, Pliny the Elder, Persius, etc) never mentioned Jesus once in their writing. One would assume that a person as significant as Jesus would be found in the works of the most famous writers of their time and place.
Yet, not only is Jesus not mentioned by the great writers of his time, neither are his twelve "significant" apostles and their interactions with other "significant" characters of the time.
In the bible, we find written that "God is not the author of confusion", yet even the most learned biblical scholars often find themselves at odds with each other over many different interpretations. Aristotle's ethics were written about 300 years before the time of Jesus and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the New Testament writers borrowed heavily from Aristotle's ethics while leaving out the best parts about logic and reason, the two enemies of blind faith.
Any bible can be summed up in a page or less. I summarize my religion in just one word:
Kindness. And by that I mean to self and others.
This means real peace, love and understanding based on our simlarities. We all have the same emotions of fear, grief, love, hate, etc., we just handle them differently based on different past experiences. We find in the ancient bibles many good things, but along with them come the contradictions advocating slavery, war, stoning people to death, butchering innocent children (the first born of every household), genocide by flood (from a supposedly all-loving, all knowing god who *knew* we would sin), violence from Jesus, "The Prince of Peace", against money lenders (the basis of every civilized economy) etc.
Kindness works, and requires peace, love and understanding. These are very real things, because none of us would be here without them. Children, who by default are *all* born atheists know these things before being indoctrinated with nonsensical "ten commandments" that most Christians I know can't even recite half of. "Thy shall honor thy father"? What if your father is a terrorist or another O.J. Simpson?
If you don't want people calling your beliefs "silly" then don't have such silly beliefs. But that's the key - I'm not attcking the person - only the belief - for beliefs are not *who* were are - they are merely *things* we subscribe to or cling to - and the good news is that we don't have to hold on to them when faced with greater truths. The fact is that we are all athiest - to the other 3,000 religions out there - I just happen to believe in one less god than the "Christians" do - which means I believe in *no* god. It is very empty to say "I don't understand how everthing got here, so it must be an intelligent desginor". No it must not - if you based your reality on that, you have to also ask who or what created the all-powerful "intelligent designer" and if he's so "powerful" why is he so emotionally weak and lonely that he needs us mere mortals to toy with and worship him?
All that silliness aside, Leviticus isn't anywhere near clear about being "gay" as an abomination. We also have to remember that Jesus never married, never pro-created, and "loved Paul with all his heart". Jesus himself never stated a word about NONheterosexuals. The Old Testament mentions a man lying with another as he would a woman in the context of prostitution and adultery - uh oh, there goes about half of the Christian population, because one of the chief reasons for their high divorce rates is infidelity and adultery. Then there are the abominations of working on the Sabbath, eating shell fish, killing yet being commanded to kill "the first born" and committing genocide with a forty day flood, etc. By the time god is through with sending the abominators to hell, there will be none left, including himself. If bisexuality is a sin, it's one of god's own creation, because the "all-creator" intersexed people born with both male and female organs. Who do the "Christians" suggest they have the freedom and equality to marry?
Everyone has the "right" to belief and preach whatever they want - I don't think anyone in this forum has ever indicated otherwise. We are all born atheist - it's our default position at birth. It's only when we allow ourselves to be socialized by various religious sects that we become "believers" - and I have found over the years that most "believers" will lie often in order to cling to their beliefs. If you want to believe in a god that causes a world-wide flood, has a man swallowed by a whale who "lives in it's belly", etc., then be my guest. But just as you do not believe in the 3,000 other gods men have invented in different times and cultures, perhaps you can understand why I do not believe in yours. The good news is that we are not our beliefs, for beliefs are only things we subscribe to - most people can change or modify their beliefs when new or better information is presented a lot of people do. The percentage of atheist in Europe and America is growing and for a lot of good reasons.
Constitution and government:
As far as the lie that our founding fathers wanted to mix their god with their government - the opposite is true. One of chief reasons that many settlers came to North America was to escape religious tyranny and oppression, no doubt being aware of the centuries of oppression ushered in by the inquisitions, crusades and the anti-scientific period known as the Dark Ages. Ironically, some of the colonists created their own Christian sects, in which so-called "witches", "devils" and "non believers" were burned or drowned, all "in the name of god".
The words "In God We Trust" first appeared on the Two Cent Piece in 1864, It was not on the cent until 1909 and not on the Nickel until 1938. It was not on our paper currency until 1957. "In God We Trust" on our coinage was not put their by popular demand, but by the continual insistence of a Baptist minister, the Reverend Mark R. Watkinson of Ridleyville, Pennsylvania. In 1861, he had written a letter to Secretary Chase urging for "the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed." Of course, as with millions of prayers for dying children, the Reverend Watkinson's god didn't listen to his superstitious prayers. For after he had written his religious-patriotic bromide, the "Southern Christians" were killing thousands of "Northern Christians", and vice versa, over the notion of "state's rights", which in reality was mostly about the state's right to determine the ownership of slaves.
"In God We Trust" on government money is a flagrant violation of Thomas Jefferson's and many other founding fathers' logic of separation of church and state. It was reasoned that those who chose to believe in an invisible creator have a personal, not national, interpretation of god and that these personal concepts are not born of universal evidence, but born of their own politics, prejudices and biases. (See quotes from Founding Father's below).
Millions of "Christians" were using the bible to justify slavery because it is justified in the bible several times. As noted in my previous posts, "Christians" (and other subscribers to other religions) will use their holy books to pick and choose whatever supports their pet prejudices. One of the Ten Commandments is "Thy shall not kill". It does not say "not murder" - it says "not kill" - no ifs, ands nor buts. Yet, here we had thousands of "Christians" killing each other essentially over slavery and their fears. Clearly, the bible is not a good measure of morality and ethics. Nearly 90% of all criminals in American prisons self-report as "Christian".
Thomas Jefferson had written much of what later became the Virginia Statute on Religion as early as the 1760s, while in his 20s. In later life, and with more wisdom, he became more and more skeptical about religion. Later, Jefferson writings had a primary influence ON THE CONSTITUTION (as well as the Declaration, the Bill of Rights, and a whole host of documents.) Ben Franklin and John Adams exchanged much correspondence with Jefferson while he was ambassador to France, and they brought many of Jefferson's ideas back with him from France for the formulation of our Constitution.
Here are some direct quotes from Jefferson's writings:
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."
- 1787 letters to his nephew.
"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterial ism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an ethereal gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindu and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."
“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
The CA Supreme Court has studied Mass. and in many other countries where gay marriage is legal, and has found no injurious causation from making it legal.
So again, if you're in this forum, are you here to defend your big ego or are you here to defend the bigger truth?
Thus, anyone who lays claim to being ethical or moral or honest should not take great offense if people point out what the bible states in it's own words. The best way to be good and do good is with no expectations of heaven nor hell, otherwise, you're behaving as a Pavlovian dog - doing good for reward an avoiding evil only because of punishment. Children are basically good - because they learn that being good brings good things in turn - we don't need ancient fairy tales for that.
From www.evilbible.com :
It always amazes me how many times this God orders the killing of innocent people even after the Ten Commandments said “Thou shall not kill”. For example, God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of “all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses” (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.
The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).
This type of criminal behavior should shock any moral person. Murder, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, and child abuse can not be justified by saying that some god says it’s OK. If more people would actually sit down and read the Bible there would be a lot more atheists like myself.
Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.
And just in case you are thinking that the evil and immoral laws of the Old Testament are no longer in effect, perhaps you should read where Jesus makes it perfectly clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
I know that most Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love. |
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| Marcolissimo |
I'm probably the newest member of the SF TA, just moved here from Canada. So walking down the street the other days I saw all these people holding up posters with "YES TO PROP 8" on them. I didn't know what the deal was, so I kept walking.
Gay marriage is such a thing of the past where I'm from, it's just understood that EVERYONE has the same freedoms as everyone else. When I was in Kentucky for work, I noticed their "Equal Opportunity" signs at the company I was dealing with had sexual orientation left out... and I had to take a pic to take back to my friends in Montreal.
Regardless of whether you're gay or straight or bi or whatever, you can't deny other people of the same "rights" you've been given. I'm not gay, but I think if two people wanna spend the rest of their lives together and get the same benefits they should be able to do so.
I hope my American friends here decide to open their minds and realize we're all humans and our sexual orientation is our fooking business.
If I could vote, I woulda helped you guys by voting no :) |
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| R!CH |
| quote: | Originally posted by teknotexan
This is an appropriate apologetics post, up to the 2nd to last sentence! Calling the one of the most sacred texts in the world a "sensational piece of fiction" kills his previous point.
/start tangent:
Never forget the story of the apostles. They all died horrible deaths, at different times, alone, poor, persecuted, and far from any other apostle. They NEVER renounced their faith. It is because of this very human, very mortal sacrifice that my father chose to be a Christian, and many other Christians will site the faith, loyalty, and dedication of the apostles as the main reason they have such strong faith, not the fire and brimstone of the Old Testament or the miracles of the New Testament.
Ask yourself this: Would you did a disgusting, lonely, painful death for a fancy folktale?
/end tangent |
the anecdotal evidence you offer here doesn't hold any water although i understand it makes perfect sense to people of faith who are sold on this line of reasoning every sunday. would you dress in black nikes and a jump suit, drink poison out of a punch bowl and lie in a bed to die with your friends as a comet passes by our planet all for a fancy myth? well a religious group called heaven's gate did. does that argument mean a damn thing to anyone who values reason and logic? throughout human history people have believed in all kinds of stupid things just because most other people did also and the only thing that has saved civilization from perpetual ignorance is a system of thought based upon logical reasoning and the scientific method.
the bible is just the most recent in a long line of astrological allegories that preceded the scientific age. they are all the same because they all describe how the moon and stars pass over the night sky during the winter solstice. the bible you read today is just a politically-crafted collection of the most agreeable folklore of the region at the time of emperor constantine, later reinterpreted by the church of england in the time of king james. let's not forget these stories were written, translated and retranslated in a time when people thought the world was flat and witches floated in water, when religion was used to validate the rule of tyrants.
it's no coincidence that the least educated people in the world today are often the most religiously devout. faith is the practice of nonthinking. to be absolutely faithful, you must be absolutely accepting of dogma and it takes a feeble and vacuous mind to achieve this in full measure. not surprisingly it's this degenerate sliver of society that's pushing for literal interpretation of their religious texts to be incorporated into the law books. |
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| R!CH |
| quote: | Originally posted by djjoshuaallen
well surpisingly i would have to disagree r!ch. Although institutions are to be seperated, beliefs are not, and have not since our founding fathers created this nation. Just look at the dollar bill in your pocket, or rehearse the pledge of allegiance. The belief in god has had a huge roll in the fabric of our country, and even the creation of it.
This proposition aside, its my belief that the authors of the consitution intended for god to play a role in the direction of this country from day one. Most major political figures have publicly displayed the role of church and god in their life. Including your buds Barack Obama & Joe Biden, who do not support homosexual marriage but rather civil unions. These political figures will fight to uphold the influence of god in the day to day lives of americans, and they have that right IMO |
the founding fathers, many of them christian, were radicals, freethinkers and humanists who did not want religion to play any part in our government. the proof you offer with "in god we trust" and "one nation under god" were in fact added within the last hundred years by the same religious groups who tried to put the 10 commandments into federal courthouses. they had no place in our founding government. the values of "do not lie, do not steal, do not kill" and the value of altruistic attitudes far predate christianity and religion. the idea that christianity gave birth to the morals we all share today is a load of . these were values that were found to be advantageous to early groups of hominids. the true values of america can be more properly attributed to hellenistic greece. |
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| skizzell |
| quote: | Originally posted by R!CH
throughout human history people have believed in all kinds of stupid things just because most other people did also and the only thing that has saved civilization from perpetual ignorance is a system of thought based upon logical reasoning and the scientific method. |
Couldn't put it better myself. Unfortunately, this might also be our undoing (science and technology used for evil/doomsday). Which, of irony, will probably be related to religious beliefs. It's ok though, because Jesus will be there waiting for us in the end. :wtf: |
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| revitalizedbeat |
| damn, you guys are really into this prop 8 thing. im gay, and im like whatever lol |
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| selfEvolution |
| It's far more than an issue about gay marriage, and most of the people in this forum are not gay. That's because I think most of us see it as an issue of tolerance, the Constitutional right to the equal "pursuit of happiness" and the separation of church and state. It's also about respecting truth and honesty as opposed to the blatant lies and dishonesty seen from many who are voting "Yes" for Prop 8. Many conservatives are saying it's not a religious issue for them, but it most assuredly is for most, and no religious sect or creed should hold power over human rights and equality among consenting adults. |
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| djjoshuaallen |
| quote: | Originally posted by R!CH
the founding fathers, many of them christian, were radicals, freethinkers and humanists who did not want religion to play any part in our government. the proof you offer with "in god we trust" and "one nation under god" were in fact added within the last hundred years by the same religious groups who tried to put the 10 commandments into federal courthouses. they had no place in our founding government. |
I get what your saying here, and i didnt claim that the founding fathers put this statement on our dollar, or wrote our pledge of allegiance. The dollar didnt replace the green back until far after our constitution was written. But God did have a hold on many of the leaders of the revolution, as god has a hold on many of the leaders today. And those leaders were definatly inspired and influenced by god and christianity.
The right wing movement that is taking place at the moment is strongly influenced by god. This is my point, god has influenced american leaders since day one. And those leaders, influenced by god, are going to fight to keep control, power, and to move our nation in the direction the see fit for gods plan. Prop 8 is just one result of this. Many lower middle class republicans, although would benifit from democratic policies much more the conservative, will vote conservative simply because they want to have conservative judges appointed on the supreme court. Its that important to them, regardless of economics or leadership quatlities. The point is that agree with them or not, they have the right to do this and will continue. |
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| R!CH |
| quote: | Originally posted by djjoshuaallen
I get what your saying here, and i didnt claim that the founding fathers put this statement on our dollar, or wrote our pledge of allegiance. The dollar didnt replace the green back until far after our constitution was written. But God did have a hold on many of the leaders of the revolution, as god has a hold on many of the leaders today. And those leaders were definatly inspired and influenced by god and christianity.
The right wing movement that is taking place at the moment is strongly influenced by god. This is my point, god has influenced american leaders since day one. And those leaders, influenced by god, are going to fight to keep control, power, and to move our nation in the direction the see fit for gods plan. Prop 8 is just one result of this. Many lower middle class republicans, although would benifit from democratic policies much more the conservative, will vote conservative simply because they want to have conservative judges appointed on the supreme court. Its that important to them, regardless of economics or leadership quatlities. The point is that agree with them or not, they have the right to do this and will continue. |
you could argue that most of them had a personal spirituality centered on deism (rather than theism) and that the essence of their moral compass is expressed in our national character, but as far as religious doctrine influencing government the consensus is very clear that they wanted none of that. only one founding father was opposed to this consensus and that was patrick henry. through the vocal opposition of henry, we know the limitations the others intended to place on the reach of the church. if they wanted this nation to be "a christian nation founded on christian values", it would be clearly defined as such with unmistakably christian values written into the constitution, but the fact is most of them were anti-clerical, anti-organized religion and some like jefferson were outwardly hostile towards the church. the values many call "christian" are also shared by other societies of the time and even those that predate the religion.
since the time of this nations founding however, the republic has not been well-kept and fundamentalist groups like the evangelicals have revised our history, redefined our culture, exploited the tax exemption status of church and built free-enterprise constituency bases to offer up to washington for favor. religion has been abused as a galvanizing force in the political arena because it presents the most lucrative of products: a controllable collective consciousness able to endorse a political surrogate by denouncing his opponent as morally repulsive. every politician secretly acknowledges it's wrong that there exists a religious test to hold office, but every one of them understands they must exude an outward appearance of being a faithful christian to be electable. aristotle explained it best that "a tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider godfearing and pious. on the other hand they do less easily move against him believing that he has the gods on his side." |
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| R!CH |
for reference, this is what they had to say about religion...
" Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear. "
- Thomas Jefferson, founding father of America, 3rd president, inventor, polymath, author Declaration of Independence
" I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.....Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make half the world fools and half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world. "
- Thomas Jefferson
" I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789
" I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies. "
- Benjamin Franklin, founding father of America, author, inventor
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. "
- Benjamin Franklin
" During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution. "
- James Madison, founding father of America, 4th president, political theorist
" What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. "
- James Madison
" Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. "
- James Madison
" This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. "
- John Adams, founding father of America, 2nd president, federalist
" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. "
- John Adams
" I do not believe in the creed of the Roman Church, in the Protestant Church, the Greek Church, or the Turkish Church. My own mind is my church. "
- Thomas Paine, deist, author "Common Sense"
" Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind. "
- Thomas Paine, from The Age of Reason
" All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. "
- Thomas Paine
" The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma. "
- Abraham Lincoln, lawyer, emancipator, 16th president
" When I became convinced that the Universe is natural -- that all the ghosts and gods are myth, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bards, and manacles became dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll, agnostic, humanist, freethinker (1833-1899)
" With soap, baptism is a good thing. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" Hands that help are far better then lips that pray. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" Environment is a sculptor -- a painter. If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: 'There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet.' If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana. As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them. "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own? "
- Robert G. Ingersoll
" When religion is good, it will support itself. And when it is not, and God does not care to support it, and its professors call for the help of a civil power, 'tis a sign of its being a bad one. "
- Benjamin Franklin
" The question is whether the god of nature will govern the world by his own laws or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles. "
- John Adams, founding father of America, 2nd president
" I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price regarding the harm done by religion, Jan. 8, 1789
" It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825
" The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
" In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814
" And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
" As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, Oct. 31, 1819
" Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. "
- Thomas Jefferson, to James Smith, 1822
" All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God. "
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned)
" Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. "
- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782 |
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| Nostalgic |
| I still can't ing fathom how passionate you people are over homos marrying. I mean are you all ******s trying to get married yourselves? Who cares if they can marry or not, what does it matter to you if you're not a fagg0t, and please, no more of the "OH NOES TEH FEDERAL GOVMENT TRYIN TO IMPEDE ON TEH RIGHTS" crybaby . Seriously. There are more important issues today like the economy, Iran, Iraqi war then a whether a bunch of pink-skirt wearing fruitcakes can marry or not. |
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