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The NO on Prop 8 thread.... (pg. 28)
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by JCIZZLE!
The prop is passing and there is nothing legally that can be done to over turn it.
I voted NO of course, but if you really wanna know how people really feel about this, discuss this with your parents. It will end in less than 5 minutes. The idea of same sex marriage grosses people out, most of my neighbors (who put up vote yes signs) just say its fine if they wanna live that life style but to get married, why? or God says that's wrong.
I propose Proposition 69 ban divorce, since marriage is so sacred.:rolleyes: |
Here is an answer to the god bull that all these religious idiots are professing. They are basically ing wrong. This was from another thread on TA that I posted about the bible verses that were posted earlier in this thread.
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Only the Romans passage is from the new testament, the others are from the old.
Starting with the old:
The Sodom story is misunderstood. Yes, the Bible states that homosexual activity was rampant in Sodom; however, it has been over-emphasized in the Christian teachings. If one looks at the Jewish teachings it is clear that the final straw to God is the attempted rape of two angels (as it is in the Christian teachings); however, the Jewish teachings cite God's wrath as being more due to the townspeople inhospitality exhibited in the attempted rape rather then the homosexual aspect. Additionally, Rabbinic texts expand on the story found in Genesis and explain that the "wickedness" in the Genesis story included economic crimes, organized starvation of the poor, violence and blasphemy. Anyone who believes that God destroyed Sodom simply due to homosexuality has missed some critical aspects of the story and is likely the same type of Christian who believes every word their minister tells them without question because they've never bothered to actually read the Bible let alone take the time and do the necessary research to understand it.
I cannot argue the Leviticus quote... that's in there; however, if one looks as the entirety of Leviticus one will find a number of ridiculous "laws" that pretty much all Christians ignore or have deemed invalid... like burning your sheets if a woman sleeps on them during her period. In truth, Leviticus is more likely rules made up by Moses and his inner circle then the word of god. They are inspired by God in that they were largely written based on interpretations of earlier stories; however, very few people believe that they are the actual word of god and are still applicable (and by very few I mean the Hasidic Jews and that's it). I would suggest to you that anyone who styles themselves a Christian and holds to this particular verse does so because it supports their prejudice rather then because it is theologically sound (as evidenced by the fact that they likely reject most of the "laws" in Leviticus).
Now the New...
The passage from Romans you note is the allusion to homosexuality I was referring to. The person who quoted it did so (intentionally I suspect) out of context. Paul's letters to various Christian communities were essentially his attempts to encourage those communities to continue to Jesus' ministry in their own communities (see Christianity is a faith one must live... it means nothing if you do not take action). It was believed in those times that people who had physical or mental illness were so afflicted as punishment for their sins. The letter lists the loss of the natural use of women and burning lust between men amongst the "afflictions" suffered along with mental defect rather then with the sins that resulted in these suffering, which he lists later (murder, envy, unrighteousness, disobedience to parents, etc). Perhaps the most important thing that the original poster omitted; however, is the first verse of the next chapter where Paul chastises those who would judge their fellow man for their perceived sins... "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." (Romans 2 verse 1). This is another good example where if you pick a single line from any of the books of the bible you can make it mean whatever you want... the original poster wanted to claim that St. Paul was saying homosexuality is a sin and should be condemned; however, what he's really saying is that no matter what someone is suffering and for what sins you believe they are suffering it a man should not stand in judgment/condemnation of his fellow man. In fact, he goes on to state that in place of condemnation we should be trying to help those we believe suffer from various afflictions.... not really the same thing as "god hates fags and so should we." |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
No, no, no... if one is truly a Christian and understands their faith they also understand that loving god and their fellow man takes precedence above all else and any "law" that contradicts that is invalid. If you want theological support for this there is a story (sorry, I cannot remember the citation) in the Gospels where Jesus is asked by one of the pharacies which of God's laws is most important... rather then picking one of the laws of Leviticus (considered the law in those times) he states that the most important is to love god above everything else, then to love your neighbour as you do yourself... meaning that the love of god and the love of your fellow man is inseparable and any "law" that is not consistent with loving your neighbour is therefore not consistent with loving god and is an offense to god... therefore invalid. |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
Craig, I really wish you were with me a couple weeks ago to put a friend in his place. I am not religious and therefore don't know the bible or it's teachings very well at all. Thank you for the explanation. :) It really does give me something to credit and show that these religious people are ignorant of their own religion. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Never a problem.
You hit the nail on the head, BTW... these people who claim to be Christians and spew hatred or intolerance are simply ignorant of their own faith... Jesus was all about love and inclusiveness. Ultimately, from the Christian perspective homosexuality is not something that God intended and is not the preferred way for humans to live; however, homosexuals should be loved and accepted just as much as any other person. You don't show love for someone by calling them a fag, telling them they're not as worthy of love as you are, and that they will suffer eternal punishment in hell (also not something that anyone who understands Christianity would ever believe). |
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| DJ Reese |
| quote: | Originally posted by gehzumteufel
Here is an answer to the god bull that all these religious idiots are professing. They are basically ing wrong. This was from another thread on TA that I posted about the bible verses that were posted earlier in this thread. |
I've been wanting to pose this question to the Yes people at some point. My girlfriend and I don't believe in god. We will not be married in a church or by a religious figure. We have not decided if we want to have children for sure. So, is that marriage? It certainly isn't "traditional marriage."
One of the ironies of all this is now we all have to sit back think about what marriage is. Actually question how we feel about marriage and what it means, what it is. How is that "protecting marriage? Over 4 months ago gay couple got the ok to get married. Did it change anything? Did it effect anyone other than the couples whom were able to elope. Did society as we kn ow it colapse?! Did 75% of the people in this state even know? No! But since this prop was brought up, all hell is breaking loose and it will only get worse. Oh...and by the way...because what the yes on prop people turned this into, it will for sure be taught in school. It is now a historic event that will be history books. Plus, what child has not asked they're parents about gay marriage now? Were they asking 4 months ago or being taught it in school?
Oh...I love irony :D |
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| JCIZZLE! |
Anal sex! Don't knock it till you try it. Just putting that out there! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Disclaimer: I am just ing with y'all, before anyone calls me a homophobe, should know, I don't mind a finger or two. Foot in mouth at this point, carry on! :nervous: |
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| selfEvolution |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Reese
Over 4 months ago gay couple got the ok to get married. Did it change anything? Did it effect anyone other than the couples whom were able to elope. Did society as we kn ow it collapse?! |
Those were some of the exact questions the California Supreme Court were asking and the answers were a resounding "NO" in each case. The judges deliberated for months and looked at the impact of gay marriage in Massachusetts, Canada, Europe and South Africa and they could find *NO* ill effects on society nor on any individual nor heterosexual couple. If anything the effects are positive in terms of health care, taxes and reducing the spread of HIV/AIDS (which has always effected mostly heterosexuals on a world-wide scale).
That is just one of the reasons why even a mostly conservative Supreme Court voted for the rights of *all* consenting adults, not to mention little things like tolerance, equality and being the good example by living up to the "land of freedom", and "best country" that many conservatives claim to the world we are.
Some "conservatives" can actually do the right thing when they put their hearts and minds into it and think things through. Other "conservatives" - not so much. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Reese
I've been wanting to pose this question to the Yes people at some point. My girlfriend and I don't believe in god. We will not be married in a church or by a religious figure. We have not decided if we want to have children for sure. So, is that marriage? It certainly isn't "traditional marriage."
One of the ironies of all this is now we all have to sit back think about what marriage is. Actually question how we feel about marriage and what it means, what it is. How is that "protecting marriage? Over 4 months ago gay couple got the ok to get married. Did it change anything? Did it effect anyone other than the couples whom were able to elope. Did society as we kn ow it colapse?! Did 75% of the people in this state even know? No! But since this prop was brought up, all hell is breaking loose and it will only get worse. Oh...and by the way...because what the yes on prop people turned this into, it will for sure be taught in school. It is now a historic event that will be history books. Plus, what child has not asked they're parents about gay marriage now? Were they asking 4 months ago or being taught it in school?
Oh...I love irony :D |
This was the precise reason I asked this friend. Before he settled on Christianity, he delved into a whole host of religions. Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity, etc. He is very well versed in religion on a pretty wide scale. |
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| system-7 |
I haven't followed on what you guys have been saying on the last 10 pages of threads, but .. you guy are still talking about this?
It passed, what more is there to talk about.. its not about religion.. it just morals.. also.. I saw someone comment about burning a church down. come on man.. how do you accuse us that say Yes on prop 8 and then you say something like that.. Jesus.. I'm not a biggot, heck.. i'm a minority (majority in calfornia) so i know how it feels to be discriminated against. This isn't about discrimation and I dislike the way people push as if this was the 1960's civil rights movement. Marriage is between a man and a women, period.
I'm not a gay/lesbian hater either.. heck.. I've gone to your types of clubs and I party around you as well.. I dont' agree with your lifestyle, but I don't disrepect you either. So please respect those of us that are married and believe in the true definition of marriage.
::puts on anti-flame suit::
:nervous: :cool: |
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| junkproject |
| quote: | Originally posted by system-7
I haven't followed on what you guys have been saying on the last 10 pages of threads, but .. you guy are still talking about this?
It passed, what more is there to talk about.. its not about religion.. it just morals.. also.. I saw someone comment about burning a church down. come on man.. how do you accuse us that say Yes on prop 8 and then you say something like that.. Jesus.. I'm not a biggot, heck.. i'm a minority (majority in calfornia) so i know how it feels to be discriminated against. This isn't about discrimation and I dislike the way people push as if this was the 1960's civil rights movement. Marriage is between a man and a women, period.
I'm not a gay/lesbian hater either.. heck.. I've gone to your types of clubs and I party around you as well.. I dont' agree with your lifestyle, but I don't disrepect you either. So please respect those of us that are married and believe in the true definition of marriage.
::puts on anti-flame suit::
:nervous: :cool: |
Respect? If you truly do. You would let them live there live's how they want. Nice to see religious groups pushing their view's through the church and old people(that's how i think prop 8 won). |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by system-7
I haven't followed on what you guys have been saying on the last 10 pages of threads, but .. you guy are still talking about this?
It passed, what more is there to talk about.. its not about religion.. it just morals.. also.. I saw someone comment about burning a church down. come on man.. how do you accuse us that say Yes on prop 8 and then you say something like that.. Jesus.. I'm not a biggot, heck.. i'm a minority (majority in calfornia) so i know how it feels to be discriminated against. This isn't about discrimation and I dislike the way people push as if this was the 1960's civil rights movement. Marriage is between a man and a women, period.
I'm not a gay/lesbian hater either.. heck.. I've gone to your types of clubs and I party around you as well.. I dont' agree with your lifestyle, but I don't disrepect you either. So please respect those of us that are married and believe in the true definition of marriage.
::puts on anti-flame suit::
:nervous: :cool: |
You disrespect them by pushing your view of "morality" onto them. Hypocrite anyone?
Read my post above though that is quite long. It puts this all into perspective of why you believe what you do, and why it is both skewed and down right wrong. |
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| skizzell |
| quote: | Originally posted by system-7
Marriage is between a man and a women, period. |
You should tell that to Belgium, Canada, Netherlands, Norway, South Africa, and Spain. They must be uneducated religious freaks...oh wait...:o |
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| SillySilvia |
| quote: | Originally posted by system-7
So please respect those of us that are married and believe in the true definition of marriage.
::puts on anti-flame suit::
:nervous: :cool: |
I've been married for 15 years. Gays/lesbians want to say the same thing. Love is love no matter who says it to whom. And why cant they have the same rights as heteros? I would love to see how the ones who voted yes and have kids, the kids hid being gay for all this time and come out to their parents after the vote. Son says "thanks mom and dad for not giving me the sames rights as you have just cause I love a man". I'm sure they would think twice but then again they brainwash their kids. :rolleyes: |
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| fury |
| quote: | Originally posted by system-7
Marriage is between a man and a women, period. |
Yeah, polygamy all the way. |
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| gehzumteufel |
| quote: | Originally posted by SillySilvia
I've been married for 15 years. Gays/lesbians want to say the same thing. Love is love no matter who says it to whom. And why cant they have the same rights as heteros? I would love to see how the ones who voted yes and have kids, the kids hid being gay for all this time and come out to their parents after the vote. Son says "thanks mom and dad for not giving me the sames rights as you have just cause I love a man". I'm sure they would think twice but then again they brainwash their kids. :rolleyes: |
You want to know one of the arguments someone I know used? That someone they know who had gay parents was "traumatized" by having gay parents. I asked her if she knows why that was the case? She couldn't answer. The reason is society. Society is ing dumb. |
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