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Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192 (pg. 20)
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by jerZ07002
nor can they defend the rights of gays to exist. |
Gays don't exist in Iran. |
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| tathi |
An interesting article on young Israeli conscientious objectors:
| quote: | Omer Goldman, daughter of a former Mossad chief, tells why she prefers jail to the military draft
Omer Goldman is a pretty girl, slender as a model. Never still, very restless, she is filled with anxiety by the expected loss of her freedom. For months before she refused to be drafted into the Israel Defence Forces, she went to a psychologist every week to prepare for what was to come: incarceration in a cell in a military prison.
I met her several times last month in an apartment with other girls who are conscientious objectors. Together they would hand out flyers against Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza at the gates of a high school like the one she left a year ago.
On her last day of freedom as a civilian, I saw her at the gates of the intake base to which she had received orders to report for induction into a two-year stint with the defence forces, like every Israeli girl. She had come to refuse the draft, to be tried and to be imprisoned immediately.
Several dozen supporters showed up – members of Anarchists Against the Wall, her mother and a few girlfriends – and she stayed close to them as though she were trying to delay the end, the moment when she would clash all alone with the army.
For Omer, this transition is sharper and more surprising than for most conscientious objectors: she is the daughter of the former deputy head of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, the man who nearly became its head.
Omer grew up all her life in the warm bosom of a huge security establishment that has now become an enemy rather than a friend. Her father appears in the newspapers as N. He was a senior intelligence officer who transferred to Mossad and climbed to the top until in 2007 he became the deputy to Mossad’s chief, Meir Dagan, now considered the most powerful mystery man in the Israeli security system.
N, whose speciality is Iran, was spoken of as Dagan’s designated successor, but Dagan had no intention of retiring. Differences of opinion developed between the two strong bosses, and N resigned in June 2007.
This was the time when his 18-year-old daughter Omer, a pampered child of the wealthy suburb of Ramat Hasharon, was beginning to move away from the usual high-school-to-army trajectory.
In parallel to her father’s struggle and his resignation from Mossad, Omer rebelled against the path he had paved for her and went to have a look at Palestinian life on the other side of the wall. Call this an adolescent’s rebellion against her father or a battle for the heart of a father who had left home.
She is one of about 40 pupils who signed a school-leavers’ protest letter this year. Thirty-eight years ago the first such letter – a counterblast against the occupation and the war of attrition, sent by pupils in the final year of my secondary school to Golda Meir, the prime minister – caused an uproar.
There have been other letters since then, and although the furore is not what it was, in Israel conscientious objection still arouses cold, self-righteous wrath.
Omer told me that the crucial moment of her metamorphosis occurred this year when she went to a Palestinian village where the Israeli army had set up a roadblock. Someone she had considered her enemy all her life stood beside her and someone who was supposed to be defending her opened fire at her.
“We were sitting by the roadside talking and soldiers came along and after a few seconds they received an order and fired gas grenades and rubber bullets at us. Then it struck me, to my astonishment, that the soldiers were following an order without thinking. For the first time in my life, an Israeli soldier raised his weapon and fired at me.”
And when you told your father? “Dad was astonished and angry that I had been there and endangered my life. After that we had conversations. He supported me as his daughter and we have a good relationship, but he is decidedly opposed to what I do and even more to my refusal to serve in the army.
“At first he thought this was a passing phase of adolescence and later he understood that this is coming from a place deep inside me. He and I have very similar characters. I, too, fight to the end for what I believe in. But we are opposites ideologically.”
When I ask more about her father, Omer smiles and does not answer. A rare moment of silence.
On September 23 she refused to serve in the army, was tried and was sent to prison for 21 days. This week she will be tried again – and again, until the army tires or she tires.
In two weeks’ time my own son Noam is due to join the army, and I will be accompanying him to the base where I last saw Omer Goldman. Unlike her, Noam intends to do his military service. I understand them both. |
i've met many young israelis fresh out of the military and the more open ones have told me what their military training was like, they enter right after school at around 18, they don't know their rights and they are selected from the "meat market" like "cattle" and then go through the long process of indoctrination which molds their personalities. one israeli guy told me "you tell me which part of the army he was trained in and i'll tell you his personality..."
no kid should have to go through that (at 18 i knew ing all about the world and life and i am so grateful i grew up here in Australia) i really feel for these israeli kids :/ |
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| The17sss |
And.... the IDF takes over Hamas TV:
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/20...television.html
click the link and watch the video. It explains above the video that it will show pictures of the Hamas leadership with bullets in their heads and the Arabic writing on the screen says "time is running out." |
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| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
An interesting article on young Israeli conscientious objectors:
i've met many young israelis fresh out of the military and the more open ones have told me what their military training was like, they enter right after school at around 18, they don't know their rights and they are selected from the "meat market" like "cattle" and then go through the long process of indoctrination which molds their personalities. one israeli guy told me "you tell me which part of the army he was trained in and i'll tell you his personality..."
no kid should have to go through that (at 18 i knew ing all about the world and life and i am so grateful i grew up here in Australia) i really feel for these israeli kids :/ |
It's a shame that a Western democracy, a pluralistic, innovative society, an international epicenter of art and nightlife, after 60 years of constant existential threat, STILL requires the draft. But guess what, it's not Israel who chooeses to basically waste and destroy entire generations who instead of going to college at 18, return trashed and confused at 26 from post-military-consciousness-expanding-trips in India and South America, just to leave the horrors behind. It's ing madness. |
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| DJ Damerchi |
Israel's measly population needs the draft, their entire sustainability has been dependant on maximizing is available manpower
i didn't get what you were talking about with India and Southamerica, Israelis are alotted time to do acid and trip out? |
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| TranceGiant |
Generic Israeli:
18-21: Military
21-22: Works in kiosks, pizza deliveries or sells necklaces and vacuum cleaners in shopping malls in Las Vegas to earn cash.
22-23/24: Takes all the cash and goes to Thailand/India/Nepal/South America to trip the out, travel, live like a bum and grow hair Survivor Style. Some make the cut, return, shave, cut hair, shower and start work/university (sometimes an additional year ias wasted for SAT preparation/ improving one's high school grades etc.). Some never return or are picked up by their parents and sent to psychological treatment.
26: What is left of these masses starts college, something which in a normal country would've happened 8 years ago.
I'm not saying this isnt an experience in itself. It probably teaches you thing and lets you grow in a way which youths from "normal" countries could never imagine. But it cannot remain like this forever, people are losing it slowly but surely. |
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| DJ Damerchi |
so universities there are mostly people in their late 20's??
I think I would fall into the"some never return and are sent for psyc treatment" :eyespop: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Arbiter
What else would they be, fungi? Hmm, you might be on to something. I have a friend who's an arab (although not a muslim) and I have to admit, he's a pretty fun guy. |
Eh, I must say I'm a little surprised to hear you say that Arbiter, especially considering that you're from Native American descent. I'm guessing the concept of dehumanizing the victim of classical and neo-colonial to diminish the intensity and reality of the atrocities committed is not an alien concept to you, and shouldn't be to any American really. The cultural consciousness has supposedly progressed enough in that respect, although there are patches of denial that still exist. Even though the civil rights movement was only a few decades ago, the cold war is over, etc etc, it is has been a decently well understood concept, at least in academic and more well read circles, that racist propaganda to desensitize local population to state policies involving violence, coercion and social injustices is well... pretty much a standard text book method. In case you're interested, since you implicitly brought up the comparison of civility, here's something I read recently that reflect the standards modus operandi of how Arabs / Muslims operated (back in the "glory days"). Compare this to the racist and violent genocidal policies of colonial Anglo-Dutch-French-Spanish Europe, I think it's rather ironic and reeks of ignorance and their own deep seeded psychological insecurities when people brainwashed with only a western education (and I'm not restricting that to a formal education) have the audacity to call other cultures primitive, barbaric or uncivilized. You might find this an interesting read, it might change your opinion... or maybe not. But for what's it worth, it's not terribly long. I just find it really ironic and sad that any person of Native American descent would have similar perspective to that of the aggressors conscience.
| quote: | Aboriginal And Macassan Traders
Australian Aboriginal International Trade With Asia Already Strong During Europe's Dark Ages
¸ Tyson Yunkaporta
Apr 7, 2006
prau, yolngu people
The myth of "first contact". Europeans were the last in Australia. International relations were established with Asia long before, between scholars, traders and farmers.
The Accepted View
Contemporary Australian History refers to the early days of European invasion in the 1700's as "settlement", or more diplomatically, "contact". The time before this is often referred to as "pre-contact". The Dutch expedition here in the early 1600's is referred to as "first contact", in which the Hollanders were defeated by the Indigenous Wik warriors of western Cape York, and fled, never to return.
But what they really mean by "first contact" is "first European contact". In the secret English of White Australia, the implications of such phrases communicate exclusionist agendas that are best not spoken aloud. In this way the immoral interests of the dominant culture shape not only the language of the nation, but its history as well.
Pre-British Contact
Most Australians are unaware that the Dutch were repelled by Aboriginal warriors at Keer Weer (Dutch for "Turn Back!"). Even those who are aware of this piece of history are often surprised to find that the Dutch weren't the first foreigners here at all. Long before they arrived, the Macassans (an Indonesian people) had established an embassy and lucrative trading relationship with Aboriginal farmers, scholars, fishermen and businessmen of the Yolngu people in the Gulf country. This international relationship was going strong long before England had imperial explorers or even a navy.
Yolngu Song
Yolngu band, Yothu Yindi, sings about this in their song, "Macassan Crew".
"They came in peace
Through the Ashmore Reef,
Smoke and steel
And the Tamarind seed."
Smoke
"Smoke" refers to the tobacco that the traders introduced into Australia. Now, this was not a drug that was dumped irresponsibly upon the Yolngu. The visitors carefully delivered education about the responsible use and side-effects of tobacco, information that was further tested and developed by Yolngu doctors and scientists, and then converted into a song-cycle to govern tobacco use, a song which became part of the lore/law of the land. As a result, prior to European occupation, tobacco was not abused by Aboriginal people.
Steel
"Steel" refers to the introduction of steel tools by the Macassans. These were highly prized, and traded locally along with tobacco down through the ancient trading routes along songlines which interconnected all the peoples of Australia (at least 500 language groups). This included the famous Pituri Trail (pituri being a native drug plant farmed in Central Australia from time out of memory). These trade routes would have even interlaced with those established by eel farmers in the south of Australia, who built canal systems in towns constructed from stone masonry.
Tamarind
"Tamarind seed" refers to the careful introduction of a fruit tree species. This was not done lightly, in the same manner as the European introduction of thousands of exotic pests that now cost the government four billion dollars each year to control. Scholars, farmers and botanists from the two cultures tested, examined and exchanged extensive knowledge about the Tamarind and its habitat before deciding to introduce it. It was carefully integrated with the local ecology over time, then interwoven with the lore of the place, and became a component of the agricultural industry and economy in northern Australia to such an extent that it is now regarded as a native plant by Aboriginal peoples. The first tree was planted on the beach, at the site of the Macassan embassy. It is still there.
Foreign Exchange
The Macassans traded these goods for pearls, which were cultivated by expert Yolngu oyster farmers. The Yolngu and Macassans also intermarried, and set up diplomatic relationships and exchanges. Macassans came to study at Yolngu universities, and Yolngu travelled to Macao for the same. The languages of the north still carry many Indonesian words that were absorbed into the culture. Off the top of my head, in Wik Mungkan there is "remat", which means periwinkle, and "otamat", which means porpoise.
Catastrophe
This relationship was terminated a century ago by the European invaders, who legislated against it. In 1906 the Macassan ships were denied entry, and never allowed to return. The Yolngu were not informed. They waited in vain for the return of the traders, and the return of beloved family members who were now stranded in Indonesia. The pain and confusion caused by this inexplicable catastrophe reverberated along the songlines and trade routes throughout the continent, creating a market "crash" that shattered what was left of the already devastated Indigenous economy. This added further stress to invaded peoples already buckling under the strain of genocidal European activity.
http://aboriginalrights.suite101.co...fm/macassancrew
Islam in Indigenous Australia:
http://aspen.conncoll.edu/politicsa...age.cfm?key=360
Macassan contact with Australia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macass...lia#cite_note-2 |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
16 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire since 2000 CLICK. Meanwhile, 192 Palestinians are killed in just one day by Israel. According to that ratio alone, Israel deserves every mortar and rocket that comes out of Gaza. |
erm, israel deserves to sustain more casualties because it's more efficient at inflicting them? ../scratches head
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Like seriously wtf do they think is gonna happen?that these guys gonna put down their weapons and pretend nothing ever happend?
The kids that lose their parents in these attacks will grow and would want take revennge at some point.Isreal is just in itself in the ass by this. |
as though not having retaliated would've painted us as saints in their minds and would've stopped the rockets flying into sderot on a regular basis?
you should shut the up about the 'ing itself in the ass by this', seeing as the only way in your mind israel wouldn't be 'ing itself in the ass' is far, far, far more ing specific than that, and would require a large number of changes, and not just the absence of retaliation.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
If Hamas had the F16s and Israel had Katyushas, Israel would be firing randomly out of desperation as well |
i tend to think that if that was the situation, israel wouldn't exist.
| quote: | Originally posted by PETRAN
If Istraeli wants to do a war, at least do a clean war. Just because Hamas doesn't have the power and plays a "dirty" semi-terrorist kind of war doesn't mean that the technologically advanced Israel should respond in an even more dirty way. If they are supposed to be the "civilised", "superior" "non-terrorists" and they have the technology and the means, they should accomplish their mission with the least violence possible. It rather seems that they bomb semi-blindly with no care about civilians.Its not like any invading army can blindly kill whoever happens to be found in front of its menacing march. Those were the f*cking dark medieval times. |
firstly, how do you fight a clean war against a terrorist organization?
secondly, seems you ignored a few of the posts that preceded yours and mentioned warning phonecalls and leaflets.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
Al Jazeera English is not that bad mate, although their weak point is they do a tad bit too many inside specials regarding islam. They have a vast array of reporters who joined them from BBC and CNN, Sir David Frost one of them, who conducted the interviews with Nixon after watergate. He is an esteemed journalist and he wouldn't join a gig that he felt compromised his journalistic integrity. |
based on the frost/nixon film - sure he would, i'd expect no less :p
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Yeah sitting in their houses with no food and fuel or any sort of economy is truly the way to go.:rolleyes: |
they can't afford food or fuel, yet rockets fit in their budgets perfectly?
| quote: | Originally posted by Joss Weatherby
The problem still comes down to Person A took land from Person B and Person B wants it back. |
err, excuse me mate, but if that was the epitome of this whole thing there'd be a war in almost every country in the world right now, not just the wars in israel and the 'minor quibble' about the native americans you mentioned. which land hasn't been taken by one group of people from another group of people in the history of the world?
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
sorry been away for the party period :p just being sarcastic, "proportional" doesn't exist in the Hebrew dictionary ;) |
it does, it's pronounced "yahasi".
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
wow so you gonna come and tell them who then vote for or not?They voted freely for Hamas.The world should resepect that. |
have you read the hamas charter?
if the world truly respected 'that', as in, considered the meaning of their elections fully, i doubt palestine would enjoy the amount of media support it receives currently, at the very least.
imagine your neighbouring country voted for an organization whose primary purpose is the destruction of your country. how should your country (or the world at large) react?
what sort of respect do you have in mind here? :conf:
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
"you tell me which part of the army he was trained in and i'll tell you his personality..." |
ask the guy what's my personality, i refused being in the military intelligence, i got myself out of the airforce, i got myself out of ordnance, spent some time in the navy, and then got myself out of it and of the army at large.
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
no kid should have to go through that (at 18 i knew ing all about the world and life and i am so grateful i grew up here in Australia) i really feel for these israeli kids :/ |
cheers mate :) (not being sarcastic here)
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Eh, I must say I'm a little surprised to hear you say that Arbiter, especially considering that you're from Native American descent... |
and lastly, shaolin - you missed the point in arbiter's post, he was basically saying we're all animals. |
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| tathi |
shaolin_z: alot of Australias extremely violent and genocidal history has been rosily rewritten, school was a long time ago but from what i remember it was very different to the documentary series i've been watchign recently "The First Australians"
| quote: | Originally posted by Psy-T
ask the guy what's my personality, i refused being in the military intelligence, i got myself out of the airforce, i got myself out of ordnance, spent some time in the navy, and then got myself out of it and of the army at large. |
actually i remember reading your story on here and i did tell him about you (we did a four day trek in Ecuador) and he said he hated people like you haha :p i guess you are too much your own person ;) "the free thinker is the foundation of society" - james joyce
out of interests sake, is your refusal to spend time in the military on your permanent record? have you decided to do some soul searching and travel yourself? |
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| Psy-T |
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
actually i remember reading your story on here and i did tell him about you (we did a four day trek in Ecuador) and he said he hated people like you haha :p i guess you are too much your own person ;) "the free thinker is the foundation of society" - james joyce |
:D
| quote: | Originally posted by tathi
out of interests sake, is your refusal to spend time in the military on your permanent record? have you decided to do some soul searching and travel yourself? |
i'd assume so, i spent a few months in military jail as well. as for soul searching, i did plenty from right here at home, and as for travel, no short trips or anything like that, but i am moving to melbourne permanently on february 3rd. :) |
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