Originally posted by Krypton
"Because of the terrorist actions carried by some terrorist figures out of the area of residence against the state of Israel, the IDF was forced to immediately respond and act inside your area of residence," it says. For your own safety you are required to leave the area immediately."
And this justifies their actions how? Leave the area? To where? The place is sealed off. Where are they going to go while their homes are being destroyed?
i never said anything about justification in there. as to the rest: wherever they can go. wouldn't you in their shoes? or would you just rather die?
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Originally posted by Krypton
Tell that to a Palestinian whose home was bombed or bulldozed. Oh, at least they still have their lives!
so you would rather die than live without your home, i see.
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Originally posted by Krypton
The Qassam rockets were specifically designed to be easy to
manufacture, using common tools, and components. The fuel used to propel it is a widely available fertilizer. And the warheads are made up of Urea nitrate, another widely available fertilizer. The Qassams are cheap and easy to produce. So you argument that, firstly they spend their economy making them, secondly they should sell them, is blatantly a false conclusion.
use that widely available fetilizer to grow crops then, or sell it. fertilizer is a commodity which is bought and sold around the world. and by the way, "conclusion" isn't the correct term, i didn't reach a conclusion, i gave a suggestion off the top of my head.
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Originally posted by Krypton
Yes it is Israel's fault. Key word is "blockade". Angry young unemployed men = eager militants for Hamas.
that's just being blind and deaf to the hamas and its charter.
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Originally posted by Krypton
Israel gets action, first off, because Palestine is slowly being settled and annexed by Israel, who refuses to fully disengage. What do you expect of the occupied population? That they will accept the cards they've been dealt, and accept national humiliation?
i don't know enough about the occupied population, the cards they've been dealt, or the supposed humiliation you mention to answer those questions.
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Originally posted by Krypton
Disengagement? Gaza was hardly disengagement. Look at the West Bank. The place is cut up like Swiss cheese with radical Israeli settlements.
i do not wish to learn more about the disengagement at present, so i will not argue on this matter further. all i know is that there was a big fuss in israel regarding it, and the general impression among israelis (or at least the ones who don't educate themselves on these matters) is that it has been done.
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Originally posted by Krypton
I'm not talking Hamas. I'm talking about the PALESTINIAN grievances. Hamas thrives because the underlying issues are not being addressed or even recognized by Israel.
at present the hamas and the palestinans are quite inseparable in that context, because the palestinians elected the hamas to govern them. so long as the hamas is in power, the grievances which led to them being in power are irrelevant vs the hamas' own 'grievances'.
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Originally posted by Krypton
I simply don't agree.
you can 'simply not agree' until you're blue in the face, but that still doesn't change the fact that it appears in various spots in the hamas' charter, such as:
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Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
Originally posted by Krypton
Again, perhaps if the underlying issues were addressed, there would not be a jihad.
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"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
same source as above, same article (13).
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Originally posted by Krypton
Well, it's fallacious to believe either Israel or Hamas could be eliminated. If both sides realize this, perhaps some progress could be made.
of course it is.
Psy-T
it's said quite clearly in the image that it's supposed to be updated regularly. why hasn't it been updated in the last 3 years?
Magnetonium
Israeli military should be ashamed of itself. And we're not even talking about the dead UN aid workers here.
Israeli forces shelled a house in the Gaza Strip which they had moved around 110 Palestinians into 24 hours earlier, the UN quotes witnesses as saying.
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) called it "one of the gravest incidents" since the beginning of the offensive.
The shelling at Zeitoun, a south-east suburb of Gaza City, on 5 January killed some 30 people, the report said.
Israel says it has looked into the allegations and they are unfounded.
Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said no Israeli soldiers had been in the area on the day the incident was supposed to have happened.
The OCHA report said: "According to several testimonies, on 4 January Israeli foot soldiers evacuated approximately 110 Palestinians into a single-residence house in Zeitoun (half of whom were children) warning them to stay indoors.
"Twenty-four hours later, Israeli forces shelled the home repeatedly, killing approximately 30."
The UN said those who survived and were able walked 2km to the main north-south road to be transported to hospital in civilian vehicles.
"Three children, the youngest of whom was five months old, died upon arrival at the hospital," the report said.
'No safe haven'
Allegra Pacheco, of OCHA in Jerusalem, said they were not accusing the Israelis of a deliberate act, but said the incident needed to be investigated.
She also said they were concerned at claims by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) that ambulances were only allowed access to the neighbourhood on Thursday - four days after the alleged incident.
The ICRC on Thursday accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.
"In Gaza, there is a severe protection of civilians crisis. There is no safe haven, no safe space, for all the civilians, particularly children," Ms Pacheco told the BBC.
"Since the ground operation, the number of children killed has risen by 250%."
An estimated 770 Palestinians and 14 Israelis have died in nearly two weeks of Israel's air and ground offensive against the Palestinian militant group Hamas.
The UN Security Council has called for an immediate ceasefire and the withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza.
It is hard to imagine how much worse the situation could get, but the confrontation in Gaza could see a dangerous escalation in the coming days as Iran threatens to break the Israeli blockade and deliver urgently needed medical supplies and other aid to the coastal strip.
If the ground offensive currently underway in Gaza becomes a full-fledged occupation with the resultant removal of Hamas from authority, then the arrival of the MV Iran Shahed in the Mediterranean will be something of an anti-climax. Too little, too late.
But while even a small stretch of beach remains under Palestinian control, there is the frightening possibility that Iranian Red Crescent volunteers might attempt a landing.
There is no denying that what has long been described as a humanitarian crisis in Gaza is rapidly descending into a humanitarian catastrophe.
Despite the Israeli "withdrawal" from Gaza in 2005, the Jewish State controls all border crossings, airspace, and the coastline -- creating what critics have described as the largest open air prison in the world.
Following the victory of Hamas in parliamentary elections in 2006, the territory was essentially placed under siege, with increasing shortages of even the most basic of daily necessities.
Iran has been a vocal critic of Arab nations, Egypt in particular, for not doing enough to break the Israeli siege and help the 1.5 million people of Gaza, and it seems they have now taken things into their own hands.
Even at the best of times Iran's action would have been interpreted by US and Israeli authorities as a deliberate provocation. But given the rapid deterioration in the security situation over the past week, there are those who would accuse of Tehran of seeking a direct and possibly violent confrontation.
But whatever their motive, nobody should be surprised that Tehran is making a move.
"In recent years, in part due to poor US foreign policy decisions, Iran has been rising a power in the Middle East," says US-based political analyst and activist, Kevin Zeese.
"By taking this type of action, they will be admired by many people of Arab and Persian descent," he said.
Describing it as a "judo move" -- Zeese said through this non-violent action Iran will strengthen itself, and Israel will be weakened.
"It is a judo move that uses Israel's strength against them."
Zeese said it is a no-win situation for the Jewish State.
"If they block the supplies it will make them look more inhumane," he said, "but if they let them through it will simply highlight the need for such humanitarian supplies."
Professor Paul Sheldon Foote from California State University says it is time for decent people to act.
"Iran is correct for taking a stand," he said, "Iran and other Islamic countries should do even more, such as breaking diplomatic relations with Egypt and Saudi Arabia unless the leaders of those countries end the Israeli siege, massacres, and invasions of Gaza."
International human rights lawyer, Francis A. Boyle, however, doubts that any Arab countries have the stomach for a confrontation with Washington.
"As for the leaders of the Arab states, most of them are in the pocket of the United States," he said, "Look at the Arab League, a worthless talking shop."
He accused the Arab League only putting out meaningless statements in an attempt to convince their own people that they are doing something, but he said, "the Palestinians have always been on their own, and they know it."
Boyle, who has offered his services to the government of Iran to represent them in a lawsuit against Israel, says there are measures the international community should immediately consider to halt the bloodshed.
"A World Court lawsuit against Israel for genocide; reconvening the Emergency Special Session for Palestine by the UN General Assembly under the Uniting for Peace Resolution; comprehensive economic and other sanctions against Israel; and the suspension of Israel from all UN General Assembly activities, such as it did to South Africa and Yugoslavia."
The Emergency Special Session for Palestine was first convened in 1997 and officially remains "adjourned."
Hamas came to power in January 2006 through a fair and open election process. But according to many experts on the issue, their success had more to do with a deep dissatisfaction with Fatah rather than any particular support for Hamas policies.
Fatah's failure to strike a firm and lasting deal with the Israelis and allegations of endemic corruption were the prime factors that decided the outcome of the election.
The United States, the European Union and Israel immediately insisted that Hamas recognize the Jewish State and renounce violence.
Glad to see Iran making such a brave move.It is about time someone actually tries to help the people in Gaza.
Arbiter
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Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Eh, I must say I'm a little surprised to hear you say that Arbiter, especially considering that you're from Native American descent. I'm guessing the concept of dehumanizing the victim of classical and neo-colonial to diminish the intensity and reality of the atrocities committed is not an alien concept to you, and shouldn't be to any American really. The cultural consciousness has supposedly progressed enough in that respect, although there are patches of denial that still exist. Even though the civil rights movement was only a few decades ago, the cold war is over, etc etc, it is has been a decently well understood concept, at least in academic and more well read circles, that racist propaganda to desensitize local population to state policies involving violence, coercion and social injustices is well... pretty much a standard text book method.
I'm certainly familiar with the concept. I admit, however, that I am not very sensitive when it comes to these issues. When you don't think humans are special to begin with, dehumanizing people loses all of its melodramatic effect; a mere lateral taxonomic reshuffling is no cause for alarm.
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In case you're interested, since you implicitly brought up the comparison of civility, here's something I read recently that reflect the standards modus operandi of how Arabs / Muslims operated (back in the "glory days"). Compare this to the racist and violent genocidal policies of colonial Anglo-Dutch-French-Spanish Europe, I think it's rather ironic and reeks of ignorance and their own deep seeded psychological insecurities when people brainwashed with only a western education (and I'm not restricting that to a formal education) have the audacity to call other cultures primitive, barbaric or uncivilized. You might find this an interesting read, it might change your opinion... or maybe not. But for what's it worth, it's not terribly long. I just find it really ironic and sad that any person of Native American descent would have similar perspective to that of the aggressors conscience.
Yes, colonial history is quite ugly. I, however, do not believe that an appropriate response to that historical ugliness would be to indiscriminantly kill random Americans. Similarly, I also do not believe that an appropriate response to the historical injustice in Palestine is the indiscriminant killing of Israeli citizens.
In either case, I don't know that I'd call it primitive, barbaric, or uncivilized, but I'd definitely call it unacceptable. And in either case, I would be in full support of the forceful termination of that course of conduct -- by whatever means necessary. And any collateral damage caused in the process, as far as I'm concerned, is one hundred percent the fault of those who have pursued that course of conduct, for it is they that have necessitated those means.
It doesn't have to be this way: it's totally up to the Palestinians. I'd be perfectly happy to be on their side. But my love is not unconditional. When the Palestinians deliver to me the head of the very last living person among them who believes that killing random Israeli civilians is an appropriate way of dealing with their present circumstances, and the historical injustices that led to them, then I will gladly apply the same vehemence to any further Israeli aggression that I presently apply to the conduct of Hamas.
Until they decide to take out their own garbage, however, I will continue to support Israel taking it out for them -- even if the process is regrettably messy. The sooner they realize that these terrorists need to be disposed of and cooperate, the sooner we can bury the problem once and for all.
pkcRAISTLIN
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Israel's current assault on the Gaza Strip cannot be justified by self-defense. Rather, it involves serious violations of international law, including war crimes. Senior Israeli political and military leaders may bear personal liability for their offenses, and they could be prosecuted by an international tribunal, or by nations practicing universal jurisdiction over grave international crimes. Hamas fighters have also violated the laws of warfare, but their misdeeds do not justify Israel's acts.
The United Nations charter preserved the customary right of a state to retaliate against an "armed attack" from another state. The right has evolved to cover nonstate actors operating beyond the borders of the state claiming self-defense, and arguably would apply to Hamas. However, an armed attack involves serious violations of the peace. Minor border skirmishes are common, and if all were considered armed attacks, states could easily exploit them -- as surrounding facts are often murky and unverifiable -- to launch wars of aggression. That is exactly what Israel seems to be currently attempting.
Israel had not suffered an "armed attack" immediately prior to its bombardment of the Gaza Strip. Since firing the first Kassam rocket into Israel in 2002, Hamas and other Palestinian groups have loosed thousands of rockets and mortar shells into Israel, causing about two dozen Israeli deaths and widespread fear. As indiscriminate attacks on civilians, these were war crimes. During roughly the same period, Israeli forces killed about 2,700 Palestinians in Gaza by targeted killings, aerial bombings, in raids, etc., according to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.
But on June 19, 2008, Hamas and Israel commenced a six-month truce. Neither side complied perfectly. Israel refused to substantially ease the suffocating siege of Gaza imposed in June 2007. Hamas permitted sporadic rocket fire -- typically after Israel killed or seized Hamas members in the West Bank, where the truce did not apply. Either one or no Israelis were killed (reports differ) by rockets in the half year leading up to the current attack.
Israel then broke the truce on Nov. 4, raiding the Gaza Strip and killing a Palestinian. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire; Israel then killed five more Palestinians. In the following days, Hamas continued rocket fire -- yet still no Israelis died. Israel cannot claim self-defense against this escalation, because it was provoked by Israel's own violation.
An armed attack that is not justified by self-defense is a war of aggression. Under the Nuremberg Principles affirmed by U.N. Resolution 95, aggression is a crime against peace.
Israel has also failed to adequately discriminate between military and nonmilitary targets. Israel's American-made F-16s and Apache helicopters have destroyed mosques, the education and justice ministries, a university, prisons, courts and police stations. These institutions were part of Gaza's civilian infrastructure. And when nonmilitary institutions are targeted, civilians die. Many killed in the last week were young police recruits with no military roles. Civilian employees in the Hamas-led government deserve the protections of international law like all others. Hamas's ideology -- which employees may or may not share -- is abhorrent, but civilized nations do not kill people merely for what they think.
Deliberate attacks on civilians that lack strict military necessity are war crimes. Israel's current violations of international law extend a long pattern of abuse of the rights of Gaza Palestinians. Eighty percent of Gaza's 1.5 million residents are Palestinian refugees who were forced from their homes or fled in fear of Jewish terrorist attacks in 1948. For 60 years, Israel has denied the internationally recognized rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes -- because they are not Jews.
Although Israel withdrew its settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005, it continues to tightly regulate Gaza's coast, airspace and borders. Thus, Israel remains an occupying power with a legal duty to protect Gaza's civilian population. But Israel's 18-month siege of the Gaza Strip preceding the current crisis violated this obligation egregiously. It brought economic activity to a near standstill, left children hungry and malnourished, and denied Palestinian students opportunities to study abroad.
Israel should be held accountable for its crimes, and the U.S. should stop abetting it with unconditional military and diplomatic support.
Mr. Bisharat is a professor at Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco.
When the Palestinians deliver to me the head of the very last living person among them who believes that killing random Israeli civilians is an appropriate way of dealing with their present circumstances, and the historical injustices that led to them, then I will gladly apply the same vehemence to any further Israeli aggression that I presently apply to the conduct of Hamas.
i dont understand how you can be so vehemently against hamas when they have been spectacularly ineffective at killing israeli civilians. you didn't see england bombing the out of northern island just to kill a few terrorists.
how can you give tacit approval for the destruction of civilian infrastructure in a third-world region by a first-world nation?
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I admit, however, that I am not very sensitive when it comes to these issues. When you don't think humans are special to begin with, dehumanizing people loses all of its melodramatic effect;
lol.
hardcore trancer
Excellent article PKC and thanks for sharing.As time goes we will see more and more criticizing from the international community.Very soon people around the world will begin to see the truth behind Israel.
I think it is just a matter of time before the American people begin to criticize their governments support behind Israel and all the money that goes to them year after year.
pkcRAISTLIN
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Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Very soon people around the world will begin to see the truth behind Israel.
the war in lebanon was the turning point for me. oh, and that ing wall.
hardcore trancer
The war with Lebenon didnt achieve anything for them,Hezbullah is there and well prepared more then ever.
I just hope that they pay the price and realize that they are not above all laws and they cant just go and do whatever the they want and kill as many as they can to achive their in goals.
DJ Damerchi
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
The war with Lebenon didnt achieve anything for them,Hezbullah is there and well prepared more then ever.
I just hope that they pay the price and realize that they are not above all laws and they cant just go and do whatever the they want and kill as many as they can to achive their in goals.
But unfortunately they are above UN law, especially with their Veto buddy having permanent presence in the security council
Israel will never get a sanction in todays world.
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
Excellent article PKC and thanks for sharing.As time goes we will see more and more criticizing from the international community.Very soon people around the world will begin to see the truth behind Israel.
I think it is just a matter of time before the American people begin to criticize their governments support behind Israel and all the money that goes to them year after year.
the jewish lobby is very strong in the US. I doubt the US will turn its back on israel anytime soon. Many americans see israel fighting our battles over there. However irrational that view may be, americans are more than happy to appease that thought and provide material support to israel just to feel a little safer.
