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Israeli air strikes on Gaza kill 192 (pg. 47)
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Yea because you know, that's exactly wtf people want to hear during a presidential inauguration!
/id-10-t :rolleyes: |
yeah you are right lets pretend nobody died in Gaza and celebrate their death.
:rolleyes: |
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| Kinezi |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Yea because you know, that's exactly wtf people want to hear during a presidential inauguration!
/id-10-t :rolleyes: |
Obama is a and a politician, he did talk about economy, its bad, people dont want to hear about it, but still he talked about it. |
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| Fir3start3r |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
yeah you are right lets pretend nobody died in Gaza and celebrate their death.
:rolleyes: |
Riiiight, and how many Americans does that conflict involve again? Oh yea, NONE. :rolleyes: |
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| buitre |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Yea, I know, the Palestinians aren't allowed to defend themselves, I get it... |
They are, but history teaches us that whenever they've had weapons (excluding Fatah recently) they used most of them, most of the time to attack Israel, not "defend" themselves from Israel's retaliation.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Again, point out where I was wrong... |
Wow. Where the hell did I say you were wrong? You're definition of "blockade" wasn't accurate enough.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
No they don't. There are over 500 check points and barriers in the West Bank. |
I take it your interest in the Middle East is of recent years? Have you forgotten the suicide bombers and shooting at Israelis in the early 2000s? That's why the check points / barriers exist.
Besides, when you cross the border into Mexico, aren'y you going through check points? It's a part of the border.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Additionally, there are roads which are for Israelis only, ON INTERNATIONAL RECOGNIZED PALESTINIAN LAND. |
I'd be glad if you'd show me which roads.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
If relying on international aid equals a "nice economy" to you, I'd have to question your understanding of what a good economy really is. |
Oh, and Israel isn't receiving financial aid? What about Jordan? Egypt as you said earlier, even Iraq?
With all the money the Palestinian Authority has received in recent years they could've establish a small Dubai or Abu Dhabi by now. Or at least a state similar to Israel.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Israel can close its border. FINE. Haven't you already guessed that I have no problem with that? It's the blockade which I and the international community outside of the USA condemns. |
When Hamas will not threaten Israel's existence - I will protest myself against any kind of "blockade" on Gaza.
Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: do you think that it's normal to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead? (i.e. Gaza) |
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| buitre |
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
So what, Al Qaeda warned the US that an attack is coming, does that exempt it from qualifying as a terrorist act as well? |
Where, the, hell, did I say that wasn't terrorism?
Terrorism's purpose is to scare you, make you feel fear. And what Irgun members have done is terrorism. And I'm against it.
But Al Qaeda's goal was to kill as many Americans as possible, while Irgun's goal wasn't. They called the hotel and told its occupants to leave, as you may or may not have read in the articles I posted earlier. Al Qaeda didn't call and said "we're going to blow up the Twin Towers". That's a noteworthy difference.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
Menachem Begin and Irgun was indeed terrorism and they were dissolved into the IDF. you must know that at one point when they were refusing to integrate supply ships were being bombed-there was internal terrorism as well. |
Yes I know all about it.
| quote: | Originally posted by DJ Damerchi
Kach and kahanist movements?
Gush Emunim movement?
Jewish terrorism has existed, sprinkle coat it all you want, it doesnt change what has happened. |
I know. Read my first paragraph, that was my point. |
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| buitre |
From yesterday:
| quote: | Hamas launches mortar shells
January 20, 2009
JERUSALEM (JTA) -- Hamas launched eight mortar shells from central Gaza, but they all landed in Palestinian areas.
The Israeli Air Force struck back following the Tuesday afternoon attack, destroying a rocket launcher, according to reports. The attack was a violation of the Hamas cease-fire after two days of calm.
The failed attack followed two incidents of Palestinian gunmen firing on Israeli troops leaving Gaza, the first violations of the cease-fire that began in the early hours of Jan. 18 after Israel's unilateral declaration. |
http://jta.org/news/article/2009/01...s-mortar-shells |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by buitre
They are, but history teaches us that whenever they've had weapons (excluding Fatah recently) they used most of them, most of the time to attack Israel, not "defend" themselves from Israel's retaliation. |
Attack Israel, or resist Israeli occupation?
| quote: | | Wow. Where the hell did I say you were wrong? You're definition of "blockade" wasn't accurate enough. |
So in other words, I wasn't wrong and you'r just needlessly nitpicking...
| quote: | | I take it your interest in the Middle East is of recent years? Have you forgotten the suicide bombers and shooting at Israelis in the early 2000s? That's why the check points / barriers exist. Besides, when you cross the border into Mexico, aren'y you going through check points? It's a part of the border. |
All your government is doing is reacting to Palestinian resistance and uprisings. They refuse to address the root problem which is occupation. As for the horrible comparison of the US/Mexico border. The United States does not have "Americans only" zones, and checkpoints all through Mexico controlled by the Americans. America actually respects Mexican sovereignty unlike Israel with Palestine.
| quote: | | I'd be glad if you'd show me which roads. |
No problem. The bold grey lines are "Israeli only" roads which link all of the illegal Israeli settlements to Israel and each other.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stbankjan06.jpg
| quote: | Oh, and Israel isn't receiving financial aid? What about Jordan? Egypt as you said earlier, even Iraq?
With all the money the Palestinian Authority has received in recent years they could've establish a small Dubai or Abu Dhabi by now. Or at least a state similar to Israel. |
LOL, Dubai and Abu Dhabi aren't being occupied by a foreign army, nor are they being colonized by foreign settlers who drive out the natives.
| quote: | | When Hamas will not threaten Israel's existence - I will protest myself against any kind of "blockade" on Gaza. |
Israeli actions give Hamas all the pretext they need to threaten your existance. But the fact of the matter is. They can't truly threaten your existance. Your country is unimaginably stronger than Hamas ever will be.
| quote: | | Anyway, you still didn't answer my question: do you think that it's normal to have financial relations with people who elected a party that wants you dead? (i.e. Gaza) |
I did answer your question. You don't want your country to have any relations with Palestine? FINE. But at least allow them to conduct commerce like any other civilized nation. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fir3start3r
Riiiight, and how many Americans does that conflict involve again? Oh yea, NONE. :rolleyes: |
It actually does since it is their money being spent towards Israel's military and that military is responsible for all the killings in Gaza. |
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| tathi |
| quote: | http://www.guardian.co.uk/
Israel's objectives from the war on Gaza were set long before its launch: to remove the Hamas movement and government, achieve the reinstallation of the Fatah leader, Mahmoud Abbas, in Gaza, and end the armed resistance. Two other objectives were not announced. First, restore the Israeli public's wavering confidence in its armed forces after its defeat by Hezbollah in 2006. Second, boost the coalition government in the coming elections.
Accordingly, we declare that Israel lost, and lost decisively. What did it achieve? The killing of large numbers of civilians, children and women, and the destruction of homes, ministry buildings and other infrastructure with the most advanced US weapons and other internationally banned chemical and phosphorous elements. Almost 2,000 children were killed and injured in desperate pursuit of political goals. Many international organisations called these attacks war crimes, yet barely a word of denunciation was uttered by any western leader. What message does the EU mean to send Palestinians by its shameful silence on these crimes, when it speaks incessantly on human rights?
If anything, the last three weeks, and previous 18 months, have proved that the Palestinians can never be broken by either starvation, economic strangulation or brutal attack. European leaders have only one option: to recognise the outcome of a democratic process they had called for and supported.
The aggression failed to undermine or weaken the Hamas-led government, or turn Palestinians against Hamas. If anything, public support is stronger than ever in Palestine and worldwide. Hamas's military capabilities have not been hurt, either. This explains Israel scurrying to sign such a strange agreement with the US to stop arms reaching Hamas. It is doomed to fail. As the former Israeli chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon and Binyamin Netanyahu agreed, Israeli forces failed to achieve their objectives.
Why is Israel allowed a continuous flow of the most lethal arms, including banned weapons, while national resistance movements are denied the means of defence? International laws permit occupied nations to resist their occupiers, and that is a right we aim to utilise to the full.
Israel must accept the reality that it is incapable of breaking the Palestinian resistance. Similarly, Europe must accept that bringing back Abbas on an Israeli tank is not an option. Nor are attempts to win by "diplomacy" what the might of the Israeli military failed to secure by force. To state that all aid for Gaza reconstruction must go through the illegal government of Salam Fayyad suggests there is no end to some parties' exploitation of Palestinians. We will never cease to pursue national unity, but we will never allow it to be attained by compromising Palestinian rights.
And to President Obama we say: the wave of hope that met your election was heavily dampened by your silence on the Gaza massacre. This was compounded by your pre-election statement siding with the Israeli settlers of Sderot. You would do well to know the history of the places of which you speak. Sderot, which may be known to some as an Israeli town, lies on the ruins of Najd, a Palestinian village ransacked in May 1948 by Zionist terrorist gangs. Villagers were forced from their beds and homes with nothing but the clothes they were wearing, rendering them refugees for the next 61 years. That is the story of Sderot. It is never a good start to get your tyrant and victims mixed up, but there is still room for a revival of passionate optimism. Only if you decide to fairly address the issue of the 6 million Palestinian refugees and the ending of occupation of Palestinian lands, including Jerusalem, will you be able to start a new relationship with the Muslim world. |
i wasn't aware that Sderot was originally Palestinian, i guess that shows how much history has been rewritten by zionist interests. |
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| CHRles |
The Arabs lost the war of 1948. So there's no revisionist history where Sderot is concerned.
Are the Turks going to give Istanbul back to the Romans/Catholics? It used to be known as Constantinople. It had another name before that.
And you, tathi, writing from Australia. What territories have you given back to the Aborigines? Were Sydney or Melbourne once settled by anyone else?
And what of Texas here in the US? Who should it be given back to? Mexico? Spain? One of the numerous native American tribes?
Lastly, Hong Kong seemed to do quite well despite being occupied by the British. This wasnt ages ago but rather up until 1997. So say what you will about Gaza but that strip could have been a lot more successful if its leaders and common people stopped focusing all their energy on suicide bombs and rocket attacks. |
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| buitre |
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Attack Israel, or resist Israeli occupation? |
Excuse me for the language, but resist ing what? We're talking about Gaza here. Have you seen any Israelis in Gaza for the last 3 ing years?
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
So in other words, I wasn't wrong and you'r just needlessly nitpicking... |
You think like a 5 year old kid, I can't believe it ...
I've never said you were wrong, so to speak. Your definition wasn't accurate enough. Get over it.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
All your government is doing is reacting to Palestinian resistance and uprisings. They refuse to address the root problem which is occupation. |
Let me remind you, again, that we're talking about Gaza here. Hamas don't give a about Fatah and the West Bank, where Fatah's in charge.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
As for the horrible comparison of the US/Mexico border. The United States does not have "Americans only" zones, and checkpoints all through Mexico controlled by the Americans. America actually respects Mexican sovereignty unlike Israel with Palestine. |
Two words: suicide bombers. I already explained that.
You know, I can show you which areas Jewish people weren't allowed to live in Europe 1939. How's that relevant for 2009?
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
LOL, Dubai and Abu Dhabi aren't being occupied by a foreign army, nor are they being colonized by foreign settlers who drive out the natives. |
So how about, invest all the money in infrastructures and economy, factories and education and establish a state similar to Israel?
Also, see CHRles example of Hong Kong above.
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
Israeli actions give Hamas all the pretext they need to threaten your existance. But the fact of the matter is. They can't truly threaten your existance. Your country is unimaginably stronger than Hamas ever will be. |
If someone says he'll kill you, will you take the risk? Even if he said he'll do that with a pencil, while you know he means it?
| quote: | Originally posted by Krypton
I did answer your question. You don't want your country to have any relations with Palestine? FINE. But at least allow them to conduct commerce like any other civilized nation. |
Commerce with whom??? Are you that ignorant?
Hamas leaders themselves said that Rafah (the Egyptian border) is their only "bridge" to the world. Israel-Gaza border is for Gazans who want to enter Israel and vice-versa. |
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| Krypton |
| quote: | Originally posted by buitre
Excuse me for the language, but resist ing what? We're talking about Gaza here. Have you seen any Israelis in Gaza for the last 3 ing years? |
blockade, airstikes, raids, assassinations.
| quote: | You think like a 5 year old kid, I can't believe it ...
I've never said you were wrong, so to speak. Your definition wasn't accurate enough. Get over it. |
It's amusing to watch your argument slowly fall apart, so now, instead of addressing my arguments, you'r pathetically resorting to attacking me instead. So much for thinking like a 5 year old...:rolleyes:
| quote: | | Let me remind you, again, that we're talking about Gaza here. Hamas don't give a about Fatah and the West Bank, where Fatah's in charge. |
Wrong, both do give a about the other, otherwise Abbas wouldn't be calling for national unity meetings, or demanding the Gaza blockade end.
| quote: | | Two words: suicide bombers. I already explained that. |
You'r running around in circles now. You tried to justify the occupations hundreds of checkpoints and barriers by attempting to compare it to the US/Mexico border. Clearly, you'r comparison is fallacious, as the US does not occupy Mexico.
| quote: | | You know, I can show you which areas Jewish people weren't allowed to live in Europe 1939. How's that relevant for 2009? |
LOL, you'r really speechless aren't you? 1939 is irrelevant. Your people are colonizing Palestinian lands with hundreds of "Israeli only" settlements. Keep trying to justify it... :rolleyes:
| quote: | So how about, invest all the money in infrastructures and economy, factories and education and establish a state similar to Israel?
Also, see CHRles example of Hong Kong above. |
How about Israel respect Palestinian sovereignty, then perhaps a real economy can be forged. Until then, no prosperous economy can function, when the damn country is being occupied, a system of apartheid is in effect, and commerce is stifled by hundreds of checkpoints. Hong Kong isn't being occupied. Is that too hard to understand?
| quote: | | If someone says he'll kill you, will you take the risk? Even if he said he'll do that with a pencil, while you know he means it? |
Of course they want to kill you. You'r country has just killed/wounded thousands of them.
| quote: | Commerce with whom??? Are you that ignorant?
Hamas leaders themselves said that Rafah (the Egyptian border) is their only "bridge" to the world. Israel-Gaza border is for Gazans who want to enter Israel and vice-versa. |
Commerce with....THE WORLD...hellllo?? Gaza has the Rafah crossing and a port, which Israel blockades with its navy. You want the border closed. I said fine, but stop the damn blockade and allow them to at least conduct commerce like every civilized nation in the world. |
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