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How do you like your pen0r? (pg. 23)
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| boris_the_bear |
| yes. it is used to strangle imperialist agents |
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| Schadenfreude |
| 8 out of every 10 people who have seen my penis would agree that i'm not circumsized. It is like totally in my aura. |
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| squirrelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by astroboy
Fair enough.. I'd just encourage you read the other side of the literature, the risks of doing it and the advantage of not. And to understand that you and your son can still be Jews without non-consensual genital modification. |
That I understand and both of us have had no problem reading literature on different perspectives. Though, on the same hand, just as I cannot force you to not have a problem with this topic, no one can force us to decide not to hold a bris.
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
Yea, we should respect religion and all of the things people do in the name of religion.
Like... blowing up other people and all the wars started in the name of religion, and ostracizing gays and lesbians, and not permitting birth control or divorce, and so on and so on.
Yep, because it's a part of religion, we should respect it and say that it's ok to do things like that, including mutilating your child.
Sounds good to me. |
lol Good God you're so thick headed. Simply because one has faith in a religion does not mean that they are going to blow up people in defense of religion or mutilate their child for it. First of all - people who blow themselves up in the name of religion are extremists and you know it. Second of all, several religions have updated their faith to be "more with the times" and not all are orthodox and old school. Birth control and living with your significant other before marriage isn't as outlawed anymore. Educate yourself before you type - you dumb bitch.
If this is such "mutilation" as you say, why are doctors still performing the procedure? Oh... maybe because it's NOT actually harmful to the child?
Are you saying that a mother who gets its child's ears pierced when it's a baby is mutilating that child as well? I mean, she's shoving a needle and creating a hold in a childs EAR?!?!
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
The original reasoning behind circumcision was to discourage sexuality, which is the same purpose for female mutilation. |
lololol really?
And God spoke to Abraham saying: ...This is my covenant which you shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after you -every male child among you shall be circumcised." (Gen. 17:12)
| quote: | | For 3500 years, since the time of our forefather Abraham, the Jewish people have observed the ritual of circumcision as the fundamental sign of the covenant between God and Israel. Known in Hebrew as Brit Milah, "the Covenant of Circumcision", it is considered much more than a simple medical procedure. Brit Milah is considered the sign of a new-born child's entry into the Jewish tradition. For millennia, in every country where Jews have lived, they have always practiced this ritual, sometimes at great personal sacrifice. Perhaps more than any other ritual, Brit Milah is the ultimate affirmation of Jewish identity |
http://www.milah.net/#history
dumb bitch. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theresa
The original reasoning behind circumcision was to discourage sexuality, which is the same purpose for female mutilation. It doesn't seem to prevent sexuality in either genders (save for some of the extreme mutilation done to women, like sewing the vaginal opening closed), but that was why they did it. |
So what? We're arguing about whether it's mutiliation. The ignorant medical beliefs of people hundreds of years ago don't make it mutilation. The issue is how much damage it actually does, and I'm putting my money on the clitoris being far more important to sexual pleasure than the foreskin. Furthermore, there are no medical benefits I can think of to female circumcision, yet there are multiple benefits for men.
| quote: | It doesn't matter whether you 'think' it's disfigured or not...
You seem to be equating perception with reality, which isn't the same. |
You seem to have a simplistic notion of "reality", but that's a whole other debate. You asked why circumcised men don't feel angry about it. The answer is this most of us don't feel like there's anything wrong. Again, I really ing doubt a circumcised woman would feel the same.
| quote: | | So for those of you who say that it is for medical reasons, why aren't we performing appendectomies at birth? |
I should make it clear at this point that I was cut for medical reasons, but not at birth.
| quote: | | If you don't maintain oral hygiene, or clean your nose, they can cause serious infections that could potentially be life threatening, so why aren't we altering those parts of our bodies somehow instead of learning how to clean them properly? |
You mean like when they remove teeth, drill 'em and fill 'em, straighten them, erode them with whitening solutions and otherwise modify them away from their natural state? By your dictionary definition, someone with a missing tooth or two is "mutilated", but the practical and aesthetic impact is so minimal that nobody would ever call them mutilated. Perhaps before you go around labelling people disfigured or mutilated, as if we're circus freaks, you should have a good think about how great the practical implications actually are. And because you've neither had a cut nor an uncut dick, perhaps conclude you really aren't in a position to judge. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by squirrelly
lololol really?
And God spoke to Abraham saying: ...This is my covenant which you shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after you -every male child among you shall be circumcised." (Gen. 17:12)
http://www.milah.net/#history
dumb bitch. |
Theresa may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but it would be even dumber of her to offer mythology as history and expect people to take it seriously. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by squirrelly
lololol really?
And God spoke to Abraham saying: ...This is my covenant which you shall keep between Me and you and thy seed after you -every male child among you shall be circumcised." (Gen. 17:12)
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I think what T was contending is that the real purpose of circumcision was to deminish/discourage sexual activity and that the story of the covenant with Abraham is nothing more then an attempt by the writers of the Torah to justify this behaviour as a divine commandment, which is a reasonable argument to put forward irrespective of one's stance on the acceptability of the practice. |
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| squirrelly |
Mythology or religion or not - the reason for the brit milah was NOT to discourage sexuality.
//edit
Moral - I'm not saying that the myth of Abraham and the covenant is false or true. Having been raised in a Jewish household, gone to a Jewish school, and have gone to several bris celebrations - that is not the basis of a circumcision whatsoever. |
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| MrJiveBoJingles |
| quote: | Originally posted by squirrelly
Mythology or religion or not - the reason for the brit milah was NOT to discourage sexuality. |
And you know this because -- the Bible tells you so? |
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| squirrelly |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
And you know this because -- the Bible tells you so? |
lol you are all cracking me up.
Again - no, because I have been to several celebrations and have been raised in the religion my whole life. At no point, has any Rabbi or parent said "we're gonna cut his penis so we can discourage sexuality".
Whether or not you believe in religion, the Old Testament, any of the "religious" or "mythical" stories or not - don't make blanket statements like that when that is not the foundation of the reasoning behind the procedure. I'm not asking you to believe in it; I'm not even saying that I believe in EVERY story and myth, I'm simply saying that it is NOT the foundation of WHY it is done. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So what? We're arguing about whether it's mutiliation. |
There is no argument over whether or not it is mutilation, as it clearly is (I recommend you look up the definition of mutilation). There is no gray area here, a piece of the body has been removed, that is a mutilation in the very same way that an amputation (traumatic or intentional) would be.
| quote: | | The issue is how much damage it actually does, |
This is actually a seperate issue, and most persons would likely agree that there is little harm done by a correctly executed circumcision.
So, can we not simply agree that it is a mutilation; however, the impact of said mutilation is largely negligable.
You idiots are arguing two different questions. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
There is no argument over whether or not it is mutilation, as it clearly is (I recommend you look up the definition of mutilation). There is no gray area here, a piece of the body has been removed, that is a mutilation in the very same way that an amputation (traumatic or intentional) would be. |
As I've already said, someone missing one molar at the back of their mouth is "mutilated" by the semantic definition. Clearly this argument is about much more than a rigid dictionary definition.
Perhaps if you bothered to read my post properly before concluding I'm an idiot you wouldn't make redundant statements. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by squirrelly
Moral - I'm not saying that the myth of Abraham and the covenant is false or true. Having been raised in a Jewish household, gone to a Jewish school, and have gone to several bris celebrations - that is not the basis of a circumcision whatsoever. |
I understand your point and I'm trying to help clarify T's (as she's kinda being jumped on here)... you're looking at the reasons why the practice survives within your faith whereas she's looking at the origins of the practice. Similarly, those muslims that practice female circumcision are likely not doing so to discourage sexual activity; rather, they are likely doing so because they believe it to be an expression of faith. |
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