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christians (pg. 25)
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| Silky Johnson |
| quote: | Originally posted by Clovis
Who exactly am I oppressed by? |
Uh, by your own sin, dummy. :rolleyes: |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
hey moral hazard: since you're such an intelligent and learned fella im assuming you believe in the theory of evolution as well as being a practicing catholic. so can you tell me at what stage the monkey received a soul? |
I do indeed believe that the theory of evolution is largely correct (I say largely because there is a high probability that at least some of the assumptions made are erred, I presume this will be corrected as greater fosil records are collected and studied). To me, the creation myth found in Genisis (which is nearly identical to a great number of creation myths written much earlier from other cultures in the fertile cresent) is a very good allegory for evolution.
As to where humans received a soul, I certainly could not say for sure... such knowledge is outside of our capacity. If I had to posture my own believe... I would say that all living things have a soul: I believe that the christian concept of heaven is actually flawed... I believe the "house of the lord" is a metaphor for a communion with God. My belief is not that our soul lives on with God but becomes part of God. If prior to the big bang there was only "the singularity" which must have created itself then one must presume (if one has faith) that the singularity was created not only by God but out of God, as God would have been the only energy in existance prior to the singularity. Since everything that exists as matter is an evolution of that singularity then all matter is part of God and to God it will return. I believe that life exists to enrich God.
As you can see from my answer above, despite practicing the Roman Catholic faith my beliefs are not entirely congruant with it. This is because I veiw most religions as being based on God revealing itself to humans in various ways that best fit with the circumstance of the peoples to whom it was revealing itself (ie. God put it into a context the people could understand). To me, the various religious families are variations on the same theme... stylistic differences, nothing more. I chose to practice as a Roman Catholic not because I believe other faiths are wrong, rather, I practice as I do because I prefer that style of worship and manner of living.
BTW, if you were looking for a strict RC based answer.... I believe the church's position is that humans would have been endowed with a soul with the evolution of Homo Sapian. The theological support for this would be based in Genisis' reference to "non-human" but human like creatures living in the wilderness beyond the garden. These "non-humans" were not the childeren of God as the humans were thus from an RC interpretation they would not have a soul. The existance of human like "non-humans" could easily be a reference to Pre-Sapian Homo species. Now, I cannot say whether the church would consider Homo Sapian Sapian or Homo Sapian Archeic to be the first endowed with a soul.
I thank you for the very interesting question.... this is why I love these sort of debates. |
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| Cipha Sounds |
| quote: | Originally posted by Az
when it comes to down to it, and if I'm "judged", I'm pretty ing confident that if I'm wrong (which im really ing not), god won't give a flying whether or not I believe in him or not, I've behaved in way thats respectful of everyone thats deserving of respect, and I've acted accordingly. Being decent to people isn't something that should be measured by outdated rules by people who feared for loss of their control, everyone, no matter their age knows what is right or wrong, and people who forget this and act out of line should be judged and punished according to this centuries rules and norms, not the ones of 2000+ years ago. If it ever comes to a stage when I should repent, I will not need to, not because I've followed religion blindly, because it is those that shall need to repent, it's because I knew what was good and what was right and it's something I will always live my life by. |
That was so well said that the Pope should get on his knees and suck your dick. Like I've been trying to explain on this thread , modern day Christians, Muslims and every other ing religion is corrupt and have changed due to centuries of added bull by mankind. The only true Catholic texts are the ones from Babylon and everything is is man made bull. Modern day religious people are always talking about God this and God that and fear the devil and hell.
Here's the truth people , there is no Hell and it the whole idea of hell was created by the heads of the Vatican church, which are a bunch of corrupt men who are only interested in power and control. The original teachings of the Catholic faith is that you are in fact "God", you have your own soul and free will. The Babylonians were the one's to figure this out. In fact Jesus was just like us, he was a Man with a good heart and wether your athiast or religious it doesn't matter, as long as you have a good heart and treat people the way you want to be treated, things will go well for you.
Even though I follow the oldest recorded traditions, I cannot say if god exists or not. Maybe the good become angels or their souls go to a higher plane and the wicked people's souls tranfer into an insect or rat, who the really knows the answer. The FACT is that none of us know the truth. But as AZ pointed out, live you ing life and don't worry about it and Christians and every other religious groups have no ing right to force their beliefs to no one. That is why we have free will for s sake, this is a neverending debate and unless you actually saw Christ or spoken to god , we cannot say wether or not god exists. |
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| Fledz |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
I do indeed believe that the theory of evolution is largely correct (I say largely because there is a high probability that at least some of the assumptions made are erred, I presume this will be corrected as greater fosil records are collected and studied). To me, the creation myth found in Genisis (which is nearly identical to a great number of creation myths written much earlier from other cultures in the fertile cresent) is a very good allegory for evolution.
As to where humans received a soul, I certainly could not say for sure... such knowledge is outside of our capacity. If I had to posture my own believe... I would say that all living things have a soul: I believe that the christian concept of heaven is actually flawed... I believe the "house of the lord" is a metaphor for a communion with God. My belief is not that our soul lives on with God but becomes part of God. If prior to the big bang there was only "the singularity" which must have created itself then one must presume (if one has faith) that the singularity was created not only by God but out of God, as God would have been the only energy in existance prior to the singularity. Since everything that exists as matter is an evolution of that singularity then all matter is part of God and to God it will return. I believe that life exists to enrich God.
As you can see from my answer above, despite practicing the Roman Catholic faith my beliefs are not entirely congruant with it. This is because I veiw most religions as being based on God revealing itself to humans in various ways that best fit with the circumstance of the peoples to whom it was revealing itself (ie. God put it into a context the people could understand). To me, the various religious families are variations on the same theme... stylistic differences, nothing more. I chose to practice as a Roman Catholic not because I believe other faiths are wrong, rather, I practice as I do because I prefer that style of worship and manner of living.
BTW, if you were looking for a strict RC based answer.... I believe the church's position is that humans would have been endowed with a soul with the evolution of Homo Sapian. The theological support for this would be based in Genisis' reference to "non-human" but human like creatures living in the wilderness beyond the garden. These "non-humans" were not the childeren of God as the humans were thus from an RC interpretation they would not have a soul. The existance of human like "non-humans" could easily be a reference to Pre-Sapian Homo species. Now, I cannot say whether the church would consider Homo Sapian Sapian or Homo Sapian Archeic to be the first endowed with a soul.
I thank you for the very interesting question.... this is why I love these sort of debates. |
Are we related in any way? :wtf: |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cipha Sounds
Even though I follow the oldest recorded traditions, I cannot say if god exists or not. Maybe the good become angels |
Just one point of contention with your post.... If you follow the oldest traditions you should know that humans becoming angels is not possible. Angels are entities that do not have free will. Their will is God's will and God's alone. They have no ability to think for themselves... they are servents in the purest sense of the word (according to the oldest teachings). As humans were given free will, presumably to diffientiate them from angels, and assuming that free will cannot be revoked, humans cannot become angels... nor would they want to, nor would God want them too (a belief based on the fact that if humans were to become angels there would have been no need for humans - as angels, according to scripture, pre-date the universe, which pre-dates humans). |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Fledz
Are we related in any way? :wtf: |
Genetisists have deduced that the most distant any two people are is 20th cousins. Given that you and I share a European ancestory (presumed by your flag) then it is likely we are much closer... 8-10th cousins perhaps. ;)
Seriously, I take it from your post that you have developed somewhat similar beliefs, correct? |
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| Cipha Sounds |
| quote: | Originally posted by Moral Hazard
Just one point of contention with your post.... If you follow the oldest traditions you should know that humans becoming angels is not possible. Angels are entities that do not have free will. Their will is God's will and God's alone. They have no ability to think for themselves... they are servents in the purest sense of the word (according to the oldest teachings). As humans were given free will, presumably to diffientiate them from angels, and assuming that free will cannot be revoked, humans cannot become angels... nor would they want to, nor would God want them too (a belief based on the fact that if humans were to become angels there would have been no need for humans - as angels, according to scripture, pre-date the universe, which pre-dates humans). |
great point and your statement is true, I should've worded it differently. According to the oldest text ous souls were meant to ascend to a higher plane of existence, I shouldn't have said angels. Our bodies are meant to only be shells of our true beings. Who we really only shows through our deepest thoughts and beliefs which we tend to hide from even the ones closest to us.
I cannot explain why that is so, but the old teaching show that god gave us freedom of will for a higher purpose that humans will never understand. Matter of fact according to the original scriptures that the Babylonians studied, Christ and the angels neve saw or spoke to god. It's such a mind that it's impossible to figure out why that was so. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cipha Sounds
I cannot explain why that is so, but the old teaching show that god gave us freedom of will for a higher purpose that humans will never understand. Matter of fact according to the original scriptures that the Babylonians studied, Christ and the angels neve saw or spoke to god. It's such a mind that it's impossible to figure out why that was so. |
If I had to hazard a guess... Free will is what allows each human to have a unique existance. This unique existance results in a greater diversity in the human experience. Building on my belief that our existance is to enrich God... the more diversivied the exeriences the more God is enriched.
As for Jesus and angels talking to God.... no scripture ever suggests Jesus spoke to God. Nor can I recall any verse that details communication between God and angels. It may be reasonable to conclude that, as angels are creations of God to exercise God's will they may be directly controled by God, thus no need for communication between them. With regard to Jesus... I view him as God having taken human form (in order to gain a direct human experience), thus communication would have been a) impossible and b) unnecessary. Please note: the above are my beliefs based on my understanding, I do not think they are positions officially assumed by any Christian sect. |
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by RJT
Nobody is going anywhere but back into the ground :) |
+ 1, did you guys ever notice that the bible sais nothing about more than 144,000 going to heaven? cuz everyone thats not one of those is straight to the ground.....no hell is mentioned in the bible either. |
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| Moral Hazard |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
+ 1, did you guys ever notice that the bible sais nothing about more than 144,000 going to heaven? cuz everyone thats not one of those is straight to the ground.....no hell is mentioned in the bible either. |
book, chapter and verse please. |
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